Archaeologists, scholars dispute Jesus documentary

[Midnightrider]

Eenntt ... Wrong ... It was a Steven Seagal movie, Exit Wounds, that I heard it in.

ok, well then i should have said originally.

BTW, i would have been put to death before i would have confessed to seeing a steve seagal movie

 

[Tonio]

BTW, i would have been put to death before i would have confessed to seeing a steve seagal movie

Watching Seagal sing "Kung Fu Fighting" on Saturday Night Live would make anyone believe in Satan.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Obviously, God isn't interested in me "changing my heart". If he was, he wouldn't allow an existence where people could get cast into Hell forever. Being punished forever has only one goal in mind: Sadistic torment for its own sake.

You are imposing your conditions on God. That is like an baseball player telling the baseball commissioner he doesn't like the rules and they should not apply to him. Guess what. The ball player doesn't make the rules and does have to play by them.

Hell was prepared for satan and the angels that follow satan. They lived in the presence of God and saw His glory and power. They rebelled in full knowledge of their rebellion. If humans choose to follow the path of rebellion, then they become followers of satan.

BUT God provides the way for humans to salvation by His gift just for the acceptance. Too simple? Just like hell, salvation is part of the rules.

Human arrogance and pride account for most sin. Pride is what caused the downfall of satan. Not surprising that it would also be a problem for humans.

 

[wxtornado]

Hell was prepared for satan and the angels that follow satan. They lived in the presence of God and saw His glory and power. They rebelled in full knowledge of their rebellion. If humans choose to follow the path of rebellion, then they become followers of satan.

God created evil, it was part of the plan. So how is Satan responsible for doing what God has forced him to do for whatever plan is God's plan to do in the first place?

How is Satan "rebelling" when he has no choice but to do as God wills?

 

[Penn]

God created evil, it was part of the plan. So how is Satan responsible for doing what God has forced him to do for whatever plan is God's plan to do in the first place?

How is Satan "rebelling" when he has no choice but to do as God wills?

As we have discussed before on these forums, it is generally agreed that God allowed evil to happen; it was part of the Free Will excerise, as I understand it.

If you want to say that He created everything in Heaven, in the universe, and on this earth; that He created the angels as well as mankind, flora and fauna, then maybe an abstract reasoning could be made that He left room for evil to propagate, I suppose.

What I am curious to know is the methodology you used to arrive at this statement:

So how is Satan responsible for doing what God has forced him to do for whatever plan is God's plan to do in the first place?

God forced satan to rebel?

I have not read that anywhere in the Bible, or in any other religious document.

If you have a link to this information, please post it?

 

[brendar buhl]

I understand what he is saying. If God is all powerful and all knowing then you or Satan are incapable of making a choice that is contrary to what God knows you will choose.

It's a pointless argument. These are the arguments that arise when people assume that they have figured God out. No one wants to believe in a God that is capable of being disappointed or surprised.

As Archibald Mcleish wrote in his play J.B. "If God is good, he is not God; if God is God, he is not good." Meaning that a God who is truly in "control" the way we understand "control" must not be "good" the way that we understand "good". If he is truly "good" then he must have lost "control" and is no god at all.

 

[SamSpade]

If I know the outcome of an event before it happens, it doesn't make ME the source of the event. If I know you're going to slip on the ice tomorrow morning, I still don't make you fall. I could stop it, but I'm not going to. I could also ENSURE THAT IT HAPPENS, but I don't do that either. I just know it will happen.

So when I come by with some Aleve and a heating pad, don't presume I caused it. I just knew it, and had a plan for dealing with the result. That's how I do things.

 

[PsyOps]

God created evil, it was part of the plan. So how is Satan responsible for doing what God has forced him to do for whatever plan is God's plan to do in the first place?

How is Satan "rebelling" when he has no choice but to do as God wills?

You could argue that God created everything. Or you could argue that just as God is and always was, so is/was good and evil.

But if you're willing to state that God created evil you also have to accept that God created free will, because it does exist. Given that, Satan (or Lucifer) had free will to either accept God's rules or rebel. He chose to rebel. God chose to reject him and cast him out.

Just the same, regardless of whether God created evil or not, you still have a choice to live an evil life or strive for a good life.

 

[2ndAmendment]

God created evil, it was part of the plan. So how is Satan responsible for doing what God has forced him to do for whatever plan is God's plan to do in the first place?

How is Satan "rebelling" when he has no choice but to do as God wills?

Angels have free will, too.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I understand what he is saying. If God is all powerful and all knowing then you or Satan are incapable of making a choice that is contrary to what God knows you will choose.

It's a pointless argument. These are the arguments that arise when people assume that they have figured God out. No one wants to believe in a God that is capable of being disappointed or surprised.

As Archibald Mcleish wrote in his play J.B. "If God is good, he is not God; if God is God, he is not good." Meaning that a God who is truly in "control" the way we understand "control" must not be "good" the way that we understand "good". If he is truly "good" then he must have lost "control" and is no god at all.

The Bible clearly states that God will and can change His mind. Usually it is just a delay of the event as people act in a given way. God will listen to the pleas, prayers, of a righteous person. Abraham asked God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 18:20-33

20And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

21"I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

23Abraham came near and said, "Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

24"Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it?

25"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"

26So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account."

27And Abraham replied, "Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes.

28"Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?" And He said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there."

29He spoke to Him yet again and said, "Suppose forty are found there?" And He said, "I will not do it on account of the forty."

30Then he said, "Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?" And He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

31And he said, "Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the twenty."

32Then he said, "Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the ten."

33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

God did listen to Abraham's plea, but couldn't even find ten righteous people.

 

[wxtornado]

If I know the outcome of an event before it happens, it doesn't make ME the source of the event. If I know you're going to slip on the ice tomorrow morning, I still don't make you fall. I could stop it, but I'm not going to. I could also ENSURE THAT IT HAPPENS, but I don't do that either. I just know it will happen.

Again, it really isn't that hard to understand. It's plain to see if you think about it, that unfortunately we still have no choice if our actions are foreseen.

Think about it now. Your actions have already been forseen by God. Before you were born even! He knows what you're going to do in 10 minutes. Can you change what you're going to do in 10 minutes? Methinks not.

And it's not about Him forcing us -- it's about being committed to a course of action we have no ability or power to thwart.

In other words, Judas betrayed Jesus from infinity back in time, and he had absolutely no way to avoid it. It was meant to be, and it had to be.

Look at it this way: God knows every person ever born will either wind up in Heaven or Hell. If you are meant for Hell, nothing you can do will change that. No course of action. No pleas of mercy. Nothing. You were born to be cast into Hell and suffer eternal torment simply because you were born to be cast into Hell and suffer eternal torment.

This is perfectly fine if you wish to embrace and love a cruel, evil and horrific God. (As an atheist, I don't really have any stake in what kind of God you wish to embrace -- I'm just illustrating for you the kind of God you are forced to worship if the above is true). But most people like to think of God as loving, caring, merciful, etc.

Okay, but then there's no free will. Consistency is what it is, and the classical New Testament God cannot be all these things.

 

[brendar buhl]

If I know the outcome of an event before it happens, it doesn't make ME the source of the event. If I know you're going to slip on the ice tomorrow morning, I still don't make you fall. I could stop it, but I'm not going to. I could also ENSURE THAT IT HAPPENS, but I don't do that either. I just know it will happen.

So when I come by with some Aleve and a heating pad, don't presume I caused it. I just knew it, and had a plan for dealing with the result. That's how I do things.

Again, you can address "all knowing" as an isolated trait and be fine. It is when you couple it with the "all powerful" that our ideas begin to conflict.
God can know everything and not be held responsible for the occurrence of any given event but, when he knows all, creates all, sustains all and ordains all it is hard for us to see him as a mere spectator.

 

[brendar buhl]

The Bible clearly states that God will and can change His mind. Usually it is just a delay of the event as people act in a given way. God will listen to the pleas, prayers, of a righteous person. Abraham asked God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah.
God did listen to Abraham's plea, but couldn't even find ten righteous people.

I know! That's the crazy thing. Sometimes I think that we insist so much on these man made words that describe God; Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, that we forget about the person of God that is the essence of scripture. Honestly I think that Christians waste so much time on things like this when we could be doing the things that matter. We argue about what we don't understand and ignore the truth that is plain.

 

[Penn]

Again, it really isn't that hard to understand. It's plain to see if you think about it, that unfortunately we still have no choice if our actions are foreseen.

Think about it now. Your actions have already been forseen by God. Before you were born even! He knows what you're going to do in 10 minutes. Can you change what you're going to do in 10 minutes? Methinks not.

And it's not about Him forcing us -- it's about being committed to a course of action we have no ability or power to thwart.

In other words, Judas betrayed Jesus from infinity back in time, and he had absolutely no way to avoid it. It was meant to be, and it had to be.

Look at it this way: God knows every person ever born will either wind up in Heaven or Hell. If you are meant for Hell, nothing you can do will change that. No course of action. No pleas of mercy. Nothing. You were born to be cast into Hell and suffer eternal torment simply because you were born to be cast into Hell and suffer eternal torment.

This is perfectly fine if you wish to embrace and love a cruel, evil and horrific God. (As an atheist, I don't really have any stake in what kind of God you wish to embrace -- I'm just illustrating for you the kind of God you are forced to worship if the above is true). But most people like to think of God as loving, caring, merciful, etc.

Okay, but then there's no free will. Consistency is what it is, and the classical New Testament God cannot be all these things.

I'd like to know where this is written - anywhere - in theological dialogue?

Again, it really isn't that hard to understand. It's plain to see if you think about it, that unfortunately we still have no choice if our actions are foreseen.

Think about it now. Your actions have already been foreseen by God. Before you were born even! He knows what you're going to do in 10 minutes. Can you change what you're going to do in 10 minutes? Methinks not.

And it's not about Him forcing us -- it's about being committed to a course of action we have no ability or power to thwart.

I have no quibble about the idea that God knows what we are going to do or say before we, ourselves, know it.

But, darn! - there is that Free Will bit; WE have the unique ability to make a choice!

What we may not be realising is - God - may have already allowed, or "made room" for the possibility - that we just might exercise our ability to choose, and actually impliment that gift, given to us by Him, in order to make a different choice!

He just might have added that piece to the puzzle, meaning that:

God says - "I may have had that individual pegged, but there is still that chance that he/she could go one of two ways."

That would be His way, or Our way.

Now, think about the events in the Old Testament. God made a pact, a Covenant with His people, no? He set out rules and laws in which His chosen were expected to live by. Better known as the 10 Commandments.

So, many of the Israelites went against His Commandments, disobeyed Him, and were punished by Him, sometimes severely.

Do you really think that God would establish rules and laws for His children to live by - knowing they were going to against Him - and that He would, or could have foretold that - and even more incredulous - that He would then have to cause misery and death amongst them??

Sorry, He may know what we are going to do to a point, but I argue that we still hold that trump card, and may very well "cross up" His reasoning with our gift of Free Will, given to us by Him.

 

[SamSpade]

Again, you can address "all knowing" as an isolated trait and be fine. It is when you couple it with the "all powerful" that our ideas begin to conflict.
God can know everything and not be held responsible for the occurrence of any given event but, when he knows all, creates all, sustains all and ordains all it is hard for us to see him as a mere spectator.

But haven't we all watched those corny sci-fi shows where they're told stuff like "Prime Directive" and "don't interfere with the time stream"? You can be all powerful and still not intervene.

There's an amusing scene in "Little Big Man" - one of my favorite movies, with Dustin Hoffman, where he plays a man raised by Indians, and Custer asks him in disparaging tones (he hates Hoffman's character) whether or not to go down through the coulee. Hoffman tells him "There are thousands of Indians down there. And when they get done with you, there won't be nothing left but a greasy stain." He told him the straight truth, but it actually WAS because he knew Custer would do it anyway - in fact, Hoffman's inner monologue confirms it. It's just kind of funny because he knows what's coming, and he does manipulate Custer, to get even with him.

I don't think God sets things up to jerk us around. If anything, the Bible suggests he intervenes so that we're never overwhelmed beyond our ability. But I also don't think we're automatons with the wheels set in motion and we have no control. We make our own choices. I don't think we're like characters in a play where God MAKES us a certain way in order that we'll act out our part. As I said before, if he intervenes at all, it's to offer us a chance to get out of it - it's still our responsibility. If you KNOW your kid is going to dawdle on his homework, and you remind him a dozen times, you can't just grab his paper and do it for him or force him - he has to face up for his own actions. KNOWING he's a lazy cuss doesn't make you guilty of being a bad parent.

 

[PsyOps]

Again, it really isn't that hard to understand. It's plain to see if you think about it, that unfortunately we still have no choice if our actions are foreseen.

Think about it now. Your actions have already been forseen by God. Before you were born even! He knows what you're going to do in 10 minutes. Can you change what you're going to do in 10 minutes? Methinks not.

And it's not about Him forcing us -- it's about being committed to a course of action we have no ability or power to thwart.

In other words, Judas betrayed Jesus from infinity back in time, and he had absolutely no way to avoid it. It was meant to be, and it had to be.

A clairvoyant (if you believe in such things) can see what’s going to happen… does that mean they determined it and made it happen? Just because you can see into the future (as God can) doesn’t mean He is making it happen. He just knows it’s going to happen.

Look at it this way: God knows every person ever born will either wind up in Heaven or Hell. If you are meant for Hell, nothing you can do will change that. No course of action. No pleas of mercy. Nothing. You were born to be cast into Hell and suffer eternal torment simply because you were born to be cast into Hell and suffer eternal torment.

Here’s where your argument falls apart… If you ask Jesus for forgiveness he will forgive you. So your “no pleas for mercy” point doesn’t work. And if it were preordained, that person wouldn’t even both asking for forgiveness.

This is perfectly fine if you wish to embrace and love a cruel, evil and horrific God. (As an atheist, I don't really have any stake in what kind of God you wish to embrace -- I'm just illustrating for you the kind of God you are forced to worship if the above is true). But most people like to think of God as loving, caring, merciful, etc.

Only an atheist would view God as cruel, evil and horrific. Just because you say so out of your distorted view of God doesn’t make it so. Can billions of people (that believe) be so wrong and you are so right? We can debate that until the sun burns up. But billions have believed over the millennia (yes, this religion has survived a very long time despite all you naysayers) that God is a loving and forgiving God. Your claims can never change nor minimize that.

Okay, but then there's no free will. Consistency is what it is, and the classical New Testament God cannot be all these things.

So, you are admitting that God created good and evil but didn’t create free will? You want it both ways. In a world where God doesn't exist good and evil and free will exist. Why is it so hard to believe they exist in a world with God? you can't just edit out certain things to fit your line of thinking.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...
I don't think God sets things up to jerk us around. If anything, the Bible suggests he intervenes so that we're never overwhelmed beyond our ability. But I also don't think we're automatons with the wheels set in motion and we have no control. We make our own choices. I don't think we're like characters in a play where God MAKES us a certain way in order that we'll act out our part. As I said before, if he intervenes at all, it's to offer us a chance to get out of it - it's still our responsibility. If you KNOW your kid is going to dawdle on his homework, and you remind him a dozen times, you can't just grab his paper and do it for him or force him - he has to face up for his own actions. KNOWING he's a lazy cuss doesn't make you guilty of being a bad parent.

I know from what I read in the Bible that the outcome of events is foretold. This is what will happen. God protects people because He loves us as our Father. He directs the universe as the Creator. I believe there are angels among us, fallen and those that guard us. The fallen try to influence us to follow evil. Those that guard us protect us from unseen spiritual warfare. We are free to choose our path through life. But the outcome of the major events of the universe are orchestrated by God.

Similarly, a football coach designs the plays and the players execute them ... but not exactly as drawn up. The player may juke left instead of right; may make 11 steps and cut instead of 10. The player makes those decisions.

The difference is God knows the outcome of the game. He may set up situations and it is our decision what choices to make. We are similar in that way to lab rats in a maze. We get rewarded or punished based on our decisions. We are given the rule book, the Bible, to learn which decisions lead to reward.

The big difference between us and lab rats is we are created in the image of God. We are created to walk and talk with God. We are created to be His companions and friends. God loves us, not like a pet, but like family.

Many have a problem with the superior relationship of God to man, because of human arrogance in wanting to be the top of the heap, king of the mountain. God is King. Mankind are subject to Him. Potter and clay. Creator and creation. Rule maker and follower or rebel.

 

[wxtornado]

Sorry, He may know what we are going to do to a point, but I argue that we still hold that trump card, and may very well "cross up" His reasoning with our gift of Free Will, given to us by Him.

You come to a fork in the road. God saw you turn left - way before you were even born. Can you turn right?

 

[wxtornado]

A clairvoyant (if you believe in such things) can see what’s going to happen… does that mean they determined it and made it happen? Just because you can see into the future (as God can) doesn’t mean He is making it happen. He just knows it’s going to happen.

I'll repeat it, yet again. It's not about Him forcing us - it's about being committed to a course of action we have no ability or power to thwart.

But billions have believed over the millennia (yes, this religion has survived a very long time despite all you naysayers) that God is a loving and forgiving God. Your claims can never change nor minimize that.

...and billions even before that. Let's not forget about all the other Gods before yours, like Zeus and Ra and Osiris et cetera, who where worshiped for thousands of years, just like yours..........

So, you are admitting that God created good and evil but didn’t create free will? You want it both ways. In a world where God doesn't exist good and evil and free will exist. Why is it so hard to believe they exist in a world with God? you can't just edit out certain things to fit your line of thinking.

You cannot escape certain consequences of the theistic worldview, whether you admit they fall apart or not. The problems are what they are. This is not a personal swipe. It has nothing to do with you - you are certainly free to believe whatever you wish and you don't need me to tell you that. However, whether or not you choose to ignore logical consequences that doesn't mean they aren't there.

Free will cannot exist if you have an omniscient, eternal God. Everything you could possible choose to do, God has already seen. You may think you have free will, but the consequence of an omniscient, eternal God is that you only have the illusion of free will.

These are results from the model, not wishes that things could be different. It would be like being presented with a polygon with three angles and only three straight line. What you have there is a triangle - that is what it is, and no matter how much you might wish to say it's realy a circle, the consequence of 3 angles and three lines in a connected polygon is still a triangle.

 

[PsyOps]

You come to a fork in the road. God saw you turn left - way before you were even born. Can you turn right?

Because I know you are going to wake up tomorrow morning does that mean I made you wake up?