Archaeologists, scholars dispute Jesus documentary

[wxtornado]

Because I know you are going to wake up tomorrow morning does that mean I made you wake up?

Absolutely not. Can you turn right?

 

[Penn]

Absolutely not. Can you turn right?

I think he already turned to the Right; so has 2nd A, so have I, and so have many others in this forum.

You turned left.

Now, I related a story, earlier in these Religious Forums that - after 20+ years of stagnation, concerning religion, I rediscovered God and Jesus Christ - one Sunday morning in a little white church in Lusby, about 7 years ago.

I'm wondering, do you think that could possibly happen to you?

If someone asked you to go to their church with them as a favor, would you go?

Do you think you're too close-minded, where, if you attended a service, God could not reach out to you?

Ever tried?

 

[SamSpade]

Absolutely not. Can you turn right?

I saw in a crystal ball this morning that you turned right. You turned right.

So?

 

[brendar buhl]

I saw in a crystal ball this morning that you turned right. You turned right.

So?

If I were wxtornado I would have long since lost my patience and given up. You guys aren't listening to or addressing his point. It is a very frustrating trait of Christians. They have a very hard time admitting that some one else has a good point or that there might be a flaw in how they have always thought about things.

 

[Toxick]

It is a very frustrating trait of Human Beings. They have a very hard time admitting that some one else has a good point or that there might be a flaw in how they have always thought about things.

:fixed:

 

[SamSpade]

If I were wxtornado I would have long since lost my patience and given up. You guys aren't listening to or addressing his point. It is a very frustrating trait of Christians. They have a very hard time admitting that some one else has a good point or that there might be a flaw in how they have always thought about things.

I'm not a Christian. Ad hominems are usually the tactic of someone who can't use logic to make their point.

And I think YOU are the one not making your point. I still don't see how my KNOWING an event before it happens makes me the cause of the event, even if I were all-powerful.

 

[brendar buhl]

I'm not a Christian. Ad hominems are usually the tactic of someone who can't use logic to make their point.

And I think YOU are the one not making your point. I still don't see how my KNOWING an event before it happens makes me the cause of the event, even if I were all-powerful.

Sorry if you felt attacked, it was not intentional. I also am not accusing you of being a Christian I was merely commenting on the flaws that I see in Christians such as myself.
The point has been made over and over again. You are correct in writing that I am not making a point. wxtornado has made a point and I think it's a good one.
My point would be this:
Our traditional way of thinking about God breaks down due to either our misunderstanding of scripture or our inability to understand the very nature of God. At some point you just push the "I believe button" and say God is who he says he is. We should never stop trying to understand him, we are never finished in our pursuit. Or as C.S. Lewis would say, "Nothing is yet in it's true form."

 

[SamSpade]

To me, the center of this only revolves around God's omnipotence. Free will is still just as everyone has stated, God or no God.

Let's just say, you were created in a universe without a God - that somehow life and creation came into being without God - and by the consequences of your choices, your biology, your experiences - you reached a point in your life where you have to make a critical decision. If you're just a product of your experiences and how you were made, then God or no God, you're STILL "predestined" to make that choice. You STILL have no free will.

It doesn't even matter if I see it happen in my crystal ball. All you are is an automaton acting out a role you were destined for from the moment you were born. You're a machine - a complex biological machine, but every single thing that you do has already been mapped out theoretically. It doesn't matter if that theoretical rests in the mind of God or as part of the history of the future Universe. You've never had free will, because you will always turn right. If we wind up the Universe, you will do it again.

So now - "God" enters the picture. This time, it's the same argument, except we "blame God" because he should intervene but choose not to. So he, like the Universe, has wound up your life like a mechanical clock, and you're going to behave the way he created you. Mind you, there's NO DIFFERENCE in the argument if there's no God, except there's no one to "blame". Somehow, by "proving" he can't allow free will, we "prove" he can't be there at all. The argument is silly.

 

[wxtornado]

If I were wxtornado I would have long since lost my patience and given up. You guys aren't listening to or addressing his point. It is a very frustrating trait of Christians. They have a very hard time admitting that some one else has a good point or that there might be a flaw in how they have always thought about things.

Lol, tell me about it I ask a simple question: "Can you turn right?" and *still* no answer, and it's a simple "yes" or "no"!

 

[wxtornado]

I saw in a crystal ball this morning that you turned right. You turned right.

So?

So? If you were God, I couldn't have "chosen" to turn left because you already saw me turn right, infinitely back in time. Funny thing that free will.........!

 

[SamSpade]

Lol, tell me about it I ask a simple question: "Can you turn right?" and *still* no answer, and it's a simple "yes" or "no"!

You want yes or no?

Yes.

I take it that doesn't do it for you though.

 

[SamSpade]

So? If you were God, I couldn't have "chosen" to turn left because you already saw me turn right, infinitely back in time. Funny thing that free will.........!

If I **wasn't** God, it's the same thing - I saw it infinitely back in time, or I saw it this morning. No difference. I didn't make you do something.

I can just sit across the room from you and watch you do everything you do. I don't make you do any of it, whether I know what you're going to do, or don't know. It makes no difference.

 

[PsyOps]

I'll repeat it, yet again. It's not about Him forcing us - it's about being committed to a course of action we have no ability or power to thwart.

What’s the difference? If God is committed to a course of action then he is forcing everything in nature to do what it is doing to make sure that course is the outcome. It’s not like that. You have yet to answer to the fact that just as God created good and evil, God also created free will. We know they all exist or we wouldn’t be discussing it.

...and billions even before that. Let's not forget about all the other Gods before yours, like Zeus and Ra and Osiris et cetera, who where worshiped for thousands of years, just like yours..........

Ahhh… there is your fallacy. My belief is there were not other God’s before mine. Remember, HE is the beginning and the end; the Alpha and the Omega. How can other God’s have come before Yahweh if Yahweh is the creator of everything?

You cannot escape certain consequences of the theistic worldview, whether you admit they fall apart or not. The problems are what they are. This is not a personal swipe. It has nothing to do with you - you are certainly free to believe whatever you wish and you don't need me to tell you that. However, whether or not you choose to ignore logical consequences that doesn't mean they aren't there.

Free will cannot exist if you have an omniscient, eternal God. Everything you could possible choose to do, God has already seen. You may think you have free will, but the consequence of an omniscient, eternal God is that you only have the illusion of free will.

These are results from the model, not wishes that things could be different. It would be like being presented with a polygon with three angles and only three straight line. What you have there is a triangle - that is what it is, and no matter how much you might wish to say it's realy a circle, the consequence of 3 angles and three lines in a connected polygon is still a triangle.

“Theistic world view?” I don’t consider my view on God worldly. You do. And then you said it all… “You are certainly free to believe what you wish…” Yes, I am free to choose. God did not MAKE me do it, I chose to. You and I are claiming to explain something that no one can claim to understand. But, it makes no sense that God would throw all sorts of choices in front us just to have already predetermined their outcome. Why bother? There is the paradox none of us can explain. All I know is there IS good and evil and free choice. And I’m not so willing to say God created these things so much as they just are, just as God just is. Now try to explain that.

In reality this doesn’t matter much. We aren't arguing about free choice or good or evil; we are arguing the existence of God. Bottom line.

 

[PsyOps]

If I were wxtornado I would have long since lost my patience and given up. You guys aren't listening to or addressing his point. It is a very frustrating trait of Christians. They have a very hard time admitting that some one else has a good point or that there might be a flaw in how they have always thought about things.

Wow... perhaps you could be more specific about this. "A very frustrating trait of Christians"? What trait would that be exactly? Defending my God? Trying to explain my God to a non-believer? My... as Christians, we certainly don't want to do that.

Perhaps you would like to point out the flaws of how I think about things. I know I am sounding pretty ugly right now but I am a little soured that you (an apparent Christian) would defend the argument that stands against our God while vilifying those that defend our God. Perhaps it's you that need some inner reflection on how you think about things. :shrug:

 

[Midnightrider]

All I know is there IS good and evil and free choice. And I’m not so willing to say God created these things so much as they just are, just as God just is. Now try to explain that.

I dont necessarily believe that there are such things, Good and evil dont exist on their own, actions and things are assigned those values. I mean i have never seen a big pot of evil, nor have i seen a towering shaft of good.

In other words, people may do acts that we classify as either good or evil, but i dont think either are standalones.
And i think that we created those values and attributes, and depending on who you talk to, even among christians, the definitions of good and evil vary.

 

[Tonio]

In other words, people may do acts that we classify as either good or evil, but i dont think either are standalones.
And i think that we created those values and attributes, and depending on who you talk to, even among christians, the definitions of good and evil vary.

I tend to believe that "good=help" and "evil=harm" are intrinsic traits, as opposed to attributes consciously assigned by humans, but I know of no way to prove that. Richard Dawkins has hypothesized that natural selection has given humans tendencies for altruism and empathy, because these are necessities for community survival. Plus, some animals such as chimpanees also seem to possess a rudimentary sense of morality.

Still, the good-evil debate will never be settled because people will always disagree on whether certain actions are helpful or harmful. The debate over the death penalty is a good example.

 

[brendar buhl]

Wow... perhaps you could be more specific about this. "A very frustrating trait of Christians"? What trait would that be exactly? Defending my God? Trying to explain my God to a non-believer? My... as Christians, we certainly don't want to do that.

Perhaps you would like to point out the flaws of how I think about things. I know I am sounding pretty ugly right now but I am a little soured that you (an apparent Christian) would defend the argument that stands against our God while vilifying those that defend our God. Perhaps it's you that need some inner reflection on how you think about things. :shrug:

Oooh, sorry again, I really didn't mean to offend anyone. As I stated earlier the "trait" is one that I see in myself as a Christian. I also see it in many of my Christian friends and it is a trait that I have been trying to shake off because I don't like the reaction it provokes. The trait (specifically) is that of not being able to say, "I don't know". It is a trait that causes me to vigorously debate ideas that I really don't understand that well. You see, I don't believe in a God that wants or needs to be defended. I believe in a God that wants to be imitated. And please understand that I know I don't imitate him well, but it is my focus and aim to do so. God has not given me a great mind that can fathom his character but he has given each of us the ability to love with out boundary. This is something that I know, so I would rather focus on that than something I don't know. You refered to me earlier as "an apparent Christian", I take that as a compliment in hopes that my faith is apparent through what I do inspite of how little I know.

 

[brendar buhl]

To me, the center of this only revolves around God's omnipotence. Free will is still just as everyone has stated, God or no God.

Let's just say, you were created in a universe without a God - that somehow life and creation came into being without God - and by the consequences of your choices, your biology, your experiences - you reached a point in your life where you have to make a critical decision. If you're just a product of your experiences and how you were made, then God or no God, you're STILL "predestined" to make that choice. You STILL have no free will.

I see what you are saying, and it is a good point. Looking back in time the only thing that could have possibly happened is what actually did happen. It's more of a physics problem than a religious one. It's interesting to think about but it makes my brain hurt.

 

[sunflower]

I see what you are saying, and it is a good point. Looking back in time the only thing that could have possibly happened is what actually did happen. It's more of a physics problem than a religious one. It's interesting to think about but it makes my brain hurt.

I don't know about you, but I like to be nestled next to a pirate at all times..

 

[wxtornado]

You want yes or no?

Yes.

I take it that doesn't do it for you though.

It does it for me just fine; I have free will in my worldview. You however, have an illusion of free will at best. Since your God saw you turn left infinitely back in time, and you just turned right, well, what exactly does that say about his omniscience? Omniscience or free will, ya can't have both!