Archaeologists, scholars dispute Jesus documentary

[itsbob]

Washington and the Pilgrim mythology that arose in the late 19th century.

That leads into Christian mythology this way - I've noticed that Christianity's critics claim that the religion borrowed much from other religions. I think that criticism misses the point. Joseph Campbell said that certain themes show up again and again as religions, to satisfy certain emotional and psychological needs or to adress universal ideas about the human condition. With that in mind, I can easily imagine the early Christians embellishing the details of Jesus' life without conscious intent.

Exactly.

What started out as Jesus taking a blind man by the hand and leading him to the well he was seeking, ended up being, "Christ gives blind man sight!!"

I believe Christ lived, I also believed he was a normal man. I don't believe he was resurrected, nor do I believe all of the miracles he performed. I believe he was a good man that did many good things in his life as did many others before and since.

 

[Toxick]

You being a normal person in the population have no way to disprove what you hear/ read.

Absolutely correct.

There's no way I will ever be able to PROVE anything. I can't even prove that I'm sitting in this chair, and that were all not some part of a cosmic purple snail's wet dream.


It boils down to what evidence you will accept.

I've read a million books and essays and diatribes, which lead me to accept the gospels as adequate representations of the original documents as written by the original authors (apostles and their companions). I've compiled many of these arguments into a single argument which I've posted here many times, and which 2A reposts often.

You don't or won't accept this as evidence - and therefore anything I say beyond this point is moot.


But I do accept it, and I accept that the Apostles were hunted down tortured and killed for their belief in Jesus because of who he was - more specifically WHAT he was - the Son of God - based on the Ressurection.

And this is the very crux of the argument for me: The apostles are the VERY men who would have known if it was a lie.



Zealots may die for what they believe - but nobody willingly gives up their life for what they KNOW is a lie.


And that's the point I'm trying to get at with your goldfish analogy. Your friends would KNOW you're feeding me BS - just as the apostles would have known Jesus was full of it.


The apostles died for it. I'll wager that your friends would not.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Zealots may die for what they believe - but nobody willingly gives up their life for what they KNOW is a lie.

And there's your answer. Zealots died for Jim Jones, does that make him a valid messiah? Zealots died for Hale Bopp, does that mean they are actually on another planet?

 

[Toxick]

And there's your answer. Zealots died for Jim Jones, does that make him a valid messiah? Zealots died for Hale Bopp, does that mean they are actually on another planet?

Nice maneuver... but, read my quote again.


Who did you mention above that willingly died for something they knew was a lie.

Seems like all you mentioned were the zealots who died for what they believed... which I was using as a contrast.

 

[Tonio]

But I do accept it, and I accept that the Apostles were hunted down tortured and killed for their belief in Jesus because of who he was - more specifically WHAT he was - the Son of God - based on the Ressurection.

I have always understood that the Apostles were killed because the Roman and Jewish governments regarded the men as threats to their own power. The validity of their beliefs in Jesus was not the issue, as far as I can tell.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Nice maneuver... but, read my quote again.


Who did you mention above that willingly died for something they knew was a lie.

No one said that the apostles willingly died.

 

[Toxick]

I have always understood that the Apostles were killed because the Roman and Jewish governments regarded the men as threats to their own power. The validity of their beliefs in Jesus was not the issue, as far as I can tell.

Yeah... and all they had to do to save their lives was say:

"Nope - I didn't really see Jesus walking around last Easter... we made it all up."

 

[Bustem' Down]

Yeah... and all they had to do to save their lives was say:

"Nope - I didn't really see Jesus walking around last Easter... we made it all up."

Sounds like a Zealot.

 

[Bustem' Down]

As an aside...

It's nice to have an intelectual debate on this subject with out someone like FredFlash in here going and acting like an idiot.

 

[Toxick]

No one said that the apostles willingly died.

But it would have been easy enough to save themselves.



But whatever.

No matter what I say you're going to have a comeback answer or question, and we can spend the rest of the night going back and forth, or until I finally say, "I don't know". It's a game I play with my children all the time. They keep asking me "Why, why, why", until basically there are no more whys, or until I don't know.

I've said my peace.

Nobody accepts it.



Fine.

I have no more answers for you.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Just another sign that the last days are getting closer.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Just another sign that the last days are getting closer.

Why? debates on the historical accuracy of Jesus and the New Testement date back farther than recent times. Books along the same lines as "The DaVinci Code" were written in the 1800's and "heresies" of the same type go back even further.

 

[Tonio]

Yeah... and all they had to do to save their lives was say:

"Nope - I didn't really see Jesus walking around last Easter... we made it all up."

For the sake of argument, if Jesus didn't rise from the grave, why does the only conclusion have to be that the Apostles were lying? Hypothetically, they could have thought they saw Jesus rise and thus were telling the truth as they understood it.

 

[Bustem' Down]

For the sake of argument, if Jesus didn't rise from the grave, why does the only conclusion have to be that the Apostles were lying? Hypothetically, they could have thought they saw Jesus rise and thus were telling the truth as they understood it.

Well, there's the theory that the Apostle Thomas was actually Jesus's identical twin brother, but I don't buy that one.

 

[Toxick]

For the sake of argument, if Jesus didn't rise from the grave, why does the only conclusion have to be that the Apostles were lying? Hypothetically, they could have thought they saw Jesus rise and thus were telling the truth as they understood it.

They talked with Him and broke bread with Him - and received instructions from Him.

It's not like they saw him out of the corner of their eye just as he was turning a corner.



Thomas put his hand in Jesus's side wound and fingers thorugh his nail-holes, for goodness sake.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Why? debates on the historical accuracy of Jesus and the New Testement date back farther than recent times. Books along the same lines as "The DaVinci Code" were written in the 1800's and "heresies" of the same type go back even further.

True, but they are getting more frequent and blatant.

Of course I can't convince you or anyone else of something you don't want to believe. Faith - belief in things unseen.

As Toxick posted, Thomas put his fingers in Jesus' hands and his hand in Jesus' side. Thomas did it in the presence of others. I believe that is not something Thomas could imagine.

But you believe or you don't. As it happens, I do and you don't. I don't expect I will change. I do pray you do. But debate will not change your mind or mine.

 

[Bustem' Down]

True, but they are getting more frequent and blatant.

Not so sure. I think that's more of an illusion from our hi tech lifestyle. Our beliefs would be what they are, but you nor I would not be aware of them but for this oline forum for example. If this forum didn't exist and give us the oprotunity to discuss such matters, and you not hear of it, that would not negate the fact that I or my beliefs still exists.


Hey, I respect you for your beliefs, and really would never try and sway anyone from them. I enjoy intellegent conversation and debate, unlike some people who seem to think that all religion is evil or something.

 

[itsbob]

And this is the very crux of the argument for me: The apostles are the VERY men who would have known if it was a lie.



.

You mean Christ's apostles.. the ones who would want to fabricate the stories in the first place? Or if not fabricate, it would not be in their best interests to prove any of them false.

You want to buy one of my miracle fish?? Spring Time special.. Miracle Fish for only $599.. Promise to bring you good fortune and cure all your diseases.. but only if you continue to send me 10% of your income after you buy them.

 

[Toxick]

You want to buy one of my miracle fish??

Remind me next time that hoping for a nice discussion with you is futile.



If all you want to do is score points off me, and make yourself look superior, I have better things to do.

 

[itsbob]

For the sake of argument, if Jesus didn't rise from the grave, why does the only conclusion have to be that the Apostles were lying? Hypothetically, they could have thought they saw Jesus rise and thus were telling the truth as they understood it.

OR, that Jesus never died. They thought he did, and the next time they saw him at Applebee's they were amazed at the miracle of his resurrection..

Word travelled that Jesus was crucified, when in fact he was never placed on a cross. Maybe someone in the crowd mis-identified him and the word spread, OR maybe one of the followers that would affirm his miracles on their own lives stood in for him, giving his own life so that Jesus could live.

The biggest problem with all of it, was this story was told before. They plagiarized the story of the crucifixion and the resurrection from other religions, substituting a cross for a tree.

I will tell you this, having sat in a Catholic service, I would be in no more disbelief if someone had set me down in Borneo to watch a Shaman perform some kind of sacrifice to their volcano God. It's jsut as silly, the movements, the incantations. the symbology.. the masses of sheep mumbling their rote memorized answers to prayers that have been said a million times before.