Archaeologists, scholars dispute Jesus documentary

[2ndAmendment]

You mean Christ's apostles.. the ones who would want to fabricate the stories in the first place? Or if not fabricate, it would not be in their best interests to prove any of them false.

You want to buy one of my miracle fish?? Spring Time special.. Miracle Fish for only $599.. Promise to bring you good fortune and cure all your diseases.. but only if you continue to send me 10% of your income after you buy them.

They held everything in common.

Acts 4:32And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.

So there was no profiteering as you describe. The only evidence of deception in the early church was Ananias, with his wife Sapphira.

Acts 5:1-11

1But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,

2and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife's full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles' feet.

3But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

4"While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

5And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.

6The young men got up and covered him up, and after carrying him out, they buried him.

7Now there elapsed an interval of about three hours, and his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.

8And Peter responded to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for such and such a price?" And she said, "Yes, that was the price."

9Then Peter said to her, "Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well."

10And immediately she fell at his feet and breathed her last, and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

11And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

The apostles also healed people that were not believers.

Acts 5:12-16

12At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon's portico.

13But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

14And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number,

15to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them.

16Also the people from the cities in the vicinity of Jerusalem were coming together, bringing people who were sick or afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all being healed.

But you are a non-believer, so I do not expect you to be convinced.

 

[Toxick]

Anonymous Karma Giver:


I don't know. I don't have enough information on those things. I haven't even read them.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Anonymous Karma Giver:


I don't know. I don't have enough information on those things. I haven't even read them.

 

[itsbob]

Remind me next time that hoping for a nice discussion with you is futile.



If all you want to do is score points off me, and make yourself look superior, I have better things to do.

I'm sorry that you don't like to lose an argument. I don't intend to make myself look superior, just trying to point out the fallacy of organized religion, don't take it personal.

I like a good debate, and in pissing off an opponent to the point they quit.. hey, a win is a win!

 

[itsbob]

They held everything in common. So there was no profiteering as you describe. The only evidence of deception in the early church was Ananias, with his wife Sapphira. The apostles also healed people that were not believers. But you are a non-believer, so I do not expect you to be convinced.

Prove to me they healed one soiltary person.. you can't it's not possible. Nobody's family record speaks of their great great great grandma.. being cured of leprosy, or being blind and being cured with sight. The only place these miracles are mentioned is in the Bible.. why is that? There is no medical record, there is no historical record, no historical city records speak of it, only the Bible. Were the apostles the only people on the face of the planet given the gift of handwriting?

Again, they may have done good work, I just think it's been embellished to the point you have no idea what it is that they did.

 

[Toxick]

I'm sorry that you don't like to lose an argument. I don't intend to make myself look superior, just trying to point out the fallacy of organized religion, don't take it personal.

First of all, I don't mind losing an argument. I'm not a child.



Secondly, please explain how this:

You want to buy one of my miracle fish?? Spring Time special.. Miracle Fish for only $599..

is not supposed to be personal. You're blatantly mocking me - personally.

Tell me you weren't.


And third, I didn't lose the argument. I quit the argument, because I have no use for soemone who is going to mock me for defending my beliefs.

If you want to mark that up as a win for yourself, so you can feel a little more superior while you curl your toesies up in your blanket tonight, then you go right ahead.

I like a good debate, and in pissing off an opponent to the point they quit.. hey, a win is a win!

Hey - a horse's ass is a horse's ass.

 

[2ndAmendment]

OR, that Jesus never died. They thought he did, and the next time they saw him at Applebee's they were amazed at the miracle of his resurrection..

Word travelled that Jesus was crucified, when in fact he was never placed on a cross. Maybe someone in the crowd mis-identified him and the word spread, OR maybe one of the followers that would affirm his miracles on their own lives stood in for him, giving his own life so that Jesus could live.

The biggest problem with all of it, was this story was told before. They plagiarized the story of the crucifixion and the resurrection from other religions, substituting a cross for a tree.

I will tell you this, having sat in a Catholic service, I would be in no more disbelief if someone had set me down in Borneo to watch a Shaman perform some kind of sacrifice to their volcano God. It's jsut as silly, the movements, the incantations. the symbology.. the masses of sheep mumbling their rote memorized answers to prayers that have been said a million times before.

Boy are you reaching. Let's see. Jesus' mother miss identified Him. Yeah. I guess your mother wouldn't recognize you either. Guess she wouldn't morn you. Guess if her son looked at another man and told him (John) to take care of His mother, neither of them would have realized this wasn't the guy that she gave birth to or the guy he had been traveling all around with for a few years. Yeah, OK. Yep, and they placed guards on the tomb because it was empty. People always guard empty tombs. You would do that, right? And three days later Jesus just showed up, but no one saw Him for three days, the person that was heralded by most of the population of Jerusalem a few days earlier. No one would have recognized Him.

And lets see, if you knew that it was all a hoax and someone said I'm going to kill your entire family in front of you and then I'm going to kill you if you don't deny Jesus, you'd just give up your family to die and die yourself to preserve the hoax. OK. I see where you are coming from. Yeah.

There are more holes in your proposition than holes in a fish net.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Prove to me they healed one soiltary person.. you can't it's not possible. Nobody's family record speaks of their great great great grandma.. being cured of leprosy, or being blind and being cured with sight. The only place these miracles are mentioned is in the Bible.. why is that? There is no medical record, there is no historical record, no historical city records speak of it, only the Bible. Were the apostles the only people on the face of the planet given the gift of handwriting?

Again, they may have done good work, I just think it's been embellished to the point you have no idea what it is that they did.

Prove to me that they didn't. You can't. At least I have a book that is accepted by me and by many as historical fact to support my belief.

 

[Tonio]

They talked with Him and broke bread with Him - and received instructions from Him.

It's not like they saw him out of the corner of their eye just as he was turning a corner.



Thomas put his hand in Jesus's side wound and fingers thorugh his nail-holes, for goodness sake.

That assumes that one reads the Bible literally instead of metaphorically or allegorically. I suggest that all scripture might be best read not as history texts but as sources of religious inspiration. I think it's interesting that Judaism seems to be heading toward that idea:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

 

[itsbob]

Boy are you reaching. Let's see. Jesus' mother miss identified Him. Yeah. I guess your mother wouldn't recognize you either. Guess she wouldn't morn you. Guess if her son looked at another man and told him (John) to take care of His mother, neither of them would have realized this wasn't the guy that she gave birth to or the guy he had been traveling all around with for a few years. Yeah, OK. Yep, and they placed guards on the tomb because it was empty. People always guard empty tombs. You would do that, right? And three days later Jesus just showed up, but no one saw Him for three days, the person that was heralded by most of the population of Jerusalem a few days earlier. No one would have recognized Him.

And lets see, if you knew that it was all a hoax and someone said I'm going to kill your entire family in front of you and then I'm going to kill you if you don't deny Jesus, you'd just give up your family to die and die yourself to preserve the hoax. OK. I see where you are coming from. Yeah.

There are more holes in your proposition than holes in a fish net.

And what about the plagiarism??


People unknowingly die for Hoaxes everyday.. look at the Muslim Suicide Bombers.. hmmm? What say you for that? If you're right they can't be right, so day after day, the innocent people befuddled by yet another historical hoax give their lives... They read the Koran just as you read the bible, they put their blind fatih in the fact that it is true.. they are willing to bet their lives on ie.. they willingly go to their deaths JUST as the followers of Jesus did. Which follower is giving their lives to a hoax?

The Koran is a written historical document too, which part is false? All of it? Just the parts that don't agree with the bible?

 

[2ndAmendment]

I'm sorry that you don't like to lose an argument. I don't intend to make myself look superior, just trying to point out the fallacy of organized religion, don't take it personal.

I like a good debate, and in pissing off an opponent to the point they quit.. hey, a win is a win!

No. It just proves that you are totally intolerant. People don't often subject themselves to abuse. You abuse people all the time in the name of debate. You are often nasty beyond being irritating. You say it is only your "board" persona, but I have chosen not to converse with you in the real world because of your "board" persona.

Also, it is obvious that your problem is not with "organized religion." Your problem is with anything that you don't agree with or which has a different standard than your own. You couldn't possibly accept the Bible. If you did, you would have to agree that you are a sinner.

 

[2ndAmendment]

And what about the plagiarism??


People unknowingly die for Hoaxes everyday.. look at the Muslim Suicide Bombers.. hmmm? What say you for that? If you're right they can't be right, so day after day, the innocent people befuddled by yet another historical hoax give their lives... They read the Koran just as you read the bible, they put their blind fatih in the fact that it is true.. they are willing to bet their lives on ie.. they willingly go to their deaths JUST as the followers of Jesus did. Which follower is giving their lives to a hoax?

The Koran is a written historical document too, which part is false? All of it? Just the parts that don't agree with the bible?

Apples and oranges. Typical debate trick.

Not the same. They die for their faith. Mohammad is real. They die for their belief. They do not die because they know something is a hoax.

If I had been traveling with Jesus and knew that no one had been healed and knew that he had not died on the cross and had not risen from the dead; if I knew all that was a hoax, would I die for that hoax. No. I submit that the apostles would not do it either.

 

[itsbob]

No. It just proves that you are totally intolerant. People don't often subject themselves to abuse. You abuse people all the time in the name of debate. You are often nasty beyond being irritating. You say it is only your "board" persona, but I have chosen not to converse with you in the real world because of your "board" persona.

Also, it is obvious that your problem is not with "organized religion." Your problem is with anything that you don't agree with or which has a different standard than your own. You couldn't possibly accept the Bible. If you did, you would have to agree that you are a sinner.

Quite contraire..

I'm very tolerant.

I accept anyone as a decent person until they prove otherwise. They don't have to go to church and be absolved of their sins, they don't have to send me money, I take them as decent people whether they be Christian, Muslim Catholic, Methodist or Agnostic.. I feel sorry for those that seem to be sheep, but I am tolerant. I don't wish them pain or suffering, nor do I wish them anything but the best in this life

I have never EVER told anyone they will spend all eternity in hell unless they believe in what I believe in.

 

[2ndAmendment]

And what about the plagiarism??


People unknowingly die for Hoaxes everyday.. look at the Muslim Suicide Bombers.. hmmm? What say you for that? If you're right they can't be right, so day after day, the innocent people befuddled by yet another historical hoax give their lives... They read the Koran just as you read the bible, they put their blind fatih in the fact that it is true.. they are willing to bet their lives on ie.. they willingly go to their deaths JUST as the followers of Jesus did. Which follower is giving their lives to a hoax?

The Koran is a written historical document too, which part is false? All of it? Just the parts that don't agree with the bible?

Interesting that you capitalize the word Koran but do not the word Bible. A little Freudian revelation?

 

[itsbob]

Apples and oranges. Typical debate trick.

Not the same. They die for their faith. Mohammad is real. They die for their belief. They do not die because they know something is a hoax.

If I had been traveling with Jesus and knew that no one had been healed and knew that he had not died on the cross and had not risen from the dead; if I knew all that was a hoax, would I die for that hoax. No. I submit that the apostles would not do it either.

So you admit that they died for what they believed to be the truth as nobody could prove to them that it was a hoax, , even though you know the Muslim faith to be a hoax and the Koran to be false...

 

[2ndAmendment]

Quite contraire..

I'm very tolerant.

....

Yep. As long as they take your fecal matter ridiculing their faith.

 

[Tonio]

People unknowingly die for Hoaxes everyday...

Again, I believe that dismissing Biblical mythology as "hoaxes" is somewhat irrelevant. Look at the King Arthur legend in England. I would guess that no one in England has believed in the Lady of the Lake or Merlin or Morgana Le Fay for centuries. Scholars have concluded that the legend originated with a real Briton chieftan who sought to rally his people against the Anglo-Saxon takeover. But the legend has grown and endured over centuries because it evokes feelings of national pride. Plus, it's one hell of a story - action, romance, betrayal, tragedy.

 

[2ndAmendment]

So you admit that they died for what they believed to be the truth as nobody could prove to them that it was a hoax, , even though you know the Muslim faith to be a hoax and the Koran to be false...

Don't take part of it. Take it all. Again, you want to go with the apples instead of the oranges.

And I have fallen into your perpetual trap of pointless debate. You can have this "win", too, if your must. You go on your merry way. We will know who is right or wrong when we die. Good luck.

 

[itsbob]

Interesting that you capitalize the word Koran but do not the word Bible. A little Freudian revelation?

Read back, you'll see I capitalized the "Bible" as a title of a book, just as I did the "Koran" a title of another book. Something I learned in the 5th grade I believe.

 

[Midnightrider]

We will know who is right or wrong when we die. Good luck.

So why do you act like you know now?
Bob's or my guess is just as good as yours....