Can Godless Atheists Have Moral Values?

[Marie]

I believe that all humans have the inate ability to now right from wrong...most cultures if they believe in a god or not have a moral code..knowing that it's wrong to kill, it's wrong to steal, so on and so forth...so does one have to believe in god to understand what morality is? No I don't think so... it is in our DNA to know, but it's up to those who are more mature to help the little ones along. Most societies have some understanding of how to teach their young how to assimulate what they feel is right and wrong. But remember we might not understand what the cultural values are when looking from the outside in with our own cultural values that we were raised with.

Canabals that were ask if its wrong to kill and eat people said yes. When asked if it was wrong to sleep with someone elses wife, they replied yes as well. They were never influenced with another cultures values, but yet knew right from wrong. The Waodani knew that it was wrong to kill as well but did it anyway.

This is why I think Gods moral laws were placed in mans heart besides the fact the Bible says so.

I guess you could argue that somehow thats been remembered since back before the tower of Babal.

 

[This_person]

And this is evident by Religions using Morals to teach their lessons.


The population would have had to already understand what the concept of Morals were, before religions could then use those concepts to teach its tenants.

If a population didnt understand the concept of a moral, then religions using a moral to teach one of its lessons would have been worthless.

The concept of Morals were in existence before religion, they had to be. If you are of the belief that religion spawned morality, then how do you explain a belief system (religion) using a concept (morals) that werent in existence before that belief introduced them, and then expect the population to understand and recognize that concept in order to put it to use?

Sounds like you two are saying the same thing - God put it in you to know before any concept of religion about God happened.

 

[Xaquin44]

Moral like drowning the population of the world?

or?

 

[itsbob]

Canabals that were ask if its wrong to kill and eat people said yes. When asked if it was wrong to sleep with someone elses wife, they replied yes as well. They were never influenced with another cultures values, but yet knew right from wrong. The Waodani knew that it was wrong to kill as well but did it anyway.

This is why I think Gods moral laws were placed in mans heart besides the fact the Bible says so.

I guess you could argue that somehow thats been remembered since back before the tower of Babal.

So you are saying we are born with the ideal of right and wrong, morals and ethics..

If that is so, and looking at the original question about atheist's you're saying there is no reason to have religion..

Makes sense to me.

 

[This_person]

Moral like drowning the population of the world?

or?

I'm not sure the flood was the moral of the story, but people take out of stories what they will.....

 

[This_person]

So you are saying we are born with the ideal of right and wrong, morals and ethics..

If that is so, and looking at the original question about atheist's you're saying there is no reason to have religion..

Makes sense to me.

The knowledge of what is right and wrong is very different from a belief system that helps you act correctly.

I think the original question was about the belief system and the definition of what morals are vs. ethics.

 

[itsbob]

I'm not sure the flood was the moral of the story, but people take out of stories what they will.....

I don't think he was talking the moral of the story, but the morals, the feeling of what is right and wrong, and the killing of over a billion people, men, women and children... because you are unhappy with them.

 

[This_person]

I don't think he was talking the moral of the story, but the morals, the feeling of what is right and wrong, and the killing of over a billion people, men, women and children... because you are unhappy with them.

Based upon post 102, I thought you equated the moral of the story with morals.

I'm not sure that punishment for wrongs is the same thing as killing. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" implies murder, whereas wars and punishments for crimes are clearly noted as being the "right" thing to do throughout the Old Testament, which obviously results in people's deaths. It's my understanding that people were killed as punishments for crimes, not murdered.

 

[itsbob]

Based upon post 102, I thought you equated the moral of the story with morals.

I'm not sure that punishment for wrongs is the same thing as killing. The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" implies murder, whereas wars and punishments for crimes are clearly noted as being the "right" thing to do throughout the Old Testament, which obviously results in people's deaths. It's my understanding that people were killed as punishments for crimes, not murdered.

So all one BILLION people were guilty of crimes?? Even the new borns? The 2 month olds.. the 2 year olds?? Yeah, i see your point, they deserved to die.

 

[This_person]

So all one BILLION people were guilty of crimes?? Even the new borns? The 2 month olds.. the 2 year olds?? Yeah, i see your point, they deserved to die.

That's what the story says. But, realize at the time that children under (I think) 13 were not responsible for their actions from a religious point of view, so they would have gone to heaven regardless - they would not have been punished. So, the only people being judged by the ultimate Judge were responsible for their actions, and the story says they all deserved it.

Neither of us were there, so neither of us can be sure the truth of it.

 

[itsbob]

....13 were not responsible for their actions from a religious point of view, so they would have gone to heaven regardless - they would not have been punished. .

I would think the part about dying would be punishment enough..

I mean if this is what Christians believe, lets "Logan Run" everyone on their 13th birthday as an award so EVERYone will go to heaven.

 

[This_person]

I would think the part about dying would be punishment enough..

I mean if this is what Christians believe, lets "Logan Run" everyone on their 13th birthday as an award so EVERYone will go to heaven.

For what punishment/issue would they be killed? If there's not a justifiable reason, then it would be murder, which would be against the commandments.

Dying is not punishment in and of itself. Dying unsaved is.

Also, just as an aside here, I do not claim in any way shape or form to speak for all Christians. This is my own personal understanding and belief, and I could be wrong from the "official" Christian perspective.

 

[itsbob]

For what punishment/issue would they be killed? If there's not a justifiable reason, then it would be murder, which would be against the commandments.

Dying is not punishment in and of itself. Dying unsaved is.

So GOD murdered one billion people.. Oh wait, I'm sorry.. he MURDERED everyone under the age of 13..

Nice God you have.

Besides we wouldn't be Punishing them, but killing them (not murdering) before they could be responsible for their sins.. so we'd be REWARDING them by killing them at the age of 13.. guaranteeing them a place in heaven.

 

[This_person]

So GOD murdered one billion people.. Oh wait, I'm sorry.. he MURDERED everyone under the age of 13..

Nice God you have.

I'm confused how my posts got you to the point of God being a murderer. Those souls went to heaven (by my beliefs and understandings). Our lives are His to give (obviously), and thus His to take away. Murder, killing, etc., are human actions. Those unsaved lives of those responsible for their actions was not murder nor killing - it was God's punishment for wrongs (letting them die unsaved).

However, I believe the thread was about the concept of "moral" vs. "ethical" action - what the basis for people's actions are, not a thread to judge God's actions in the flood.

 

[Toxick]

lets "Logan Run" everyone on their 13th birthday as an award so EVERYone will go to heaven.

I like this idea.

I'm excited about this idea and I want to be a part of it.



I call machete!!!

 

[This_person]

I like this idea.

I'm excited about this idea and I want to be a part of it.



I call machete!!!

 

[itsbob]

I like this idea.

I'm excited about this idea and I want to be a part of it.



I call machete!!!

Are you over 13? Are you sure machete?? Sounds like a painful excrutiating way to go.. but if that's how you want to be Loganed.. so be it!

 

[Xaquin44]

Those souls went to heaven (by my beliefs and understandings).

after drowning ....

couldn't think of a nicer way to get them?

"eeeehhhhhh I could do this the nice way, but eeeeehhhhhh .... hmmm drowning would be cool to watch"

I agree with bob

nice god you all have



though I can see why religion is mostly 'do as I say and not as I do', seeing as how it's taught from the get go.

 

[SamSpade]

So GOD murdered one billion people.. Oh wait, I'm sorry.. he MURDERED everyone under the age of 13..

Actually God kills everyone and everything, eventually. I guess I'm amused at those who fault God for the deaths of innocents, when if you believe him to exist, you realize that he actually kills everyone.

Secondly, if you believe in an afterlife, death is not a bad thing at all. We just attach those sentiments because - well a lot of us believe that death is the end, and as such, is the most awful thing you can do to a living thing. I mean, if you sentence someone to solitary for life, you'd think that was pretty bad, but if you sentenced them to one of those country club prisons for life, you'd think that was a pretty sweet deal. So when someone who's suffering dies, there's this groundswell of sentiment that says "how could God just let them die" when - at least in the minds of those who BELIEVE in him - it ought to be, he just gave them eternity in paradise. Damn. How bad is that?

 

[Xaquin44]

Actually God kills everyone and everything, eventually.

Especially 2 year olds

By drowning


god loves a good drowning.