Cross/Crucifix

[itsbob]

I see. The religious views of the person don't matter. If there isn't a mainstream orthodoxy that directs you to wear something, it just isn't real.

I thought you were sort of an anti-organized religion type. Why the change of heart?

I am anti organized religion, but I respect those of all faiths.

Just because I don't agree with or like organized religion does not mean I don't like, or respect people that are members of organized religion. I just hope someday the veil is lifted enough for them to see the truth and they go back to praying in the privacy of their own home, to taking care of their fellow man because they WANT to not because someone commanded it, and take the 10% of their pay and provide for thie families and charities what will use it for good, and not another piece of art, or another wing of some temple, or in legal defense fees.

If the woman is so set in her ways, she should continue to display the crucifix. Who cares what her boss thinks, if her God commanded her to wear it, then show us how much faith you have, wear it. If she loses her job, so be it.. at least she stood by her principles.

 

[Toxick]

Think about it.. If Jesus was hung, would all the Christians be wearing nooses around their necks?? I doubt it, so why the cross?

OK.

We get it.

You don't like the idea of a cross symbolizing Christianity.

Check.

You have successfully driven your point firmly into the ground.

Congratulations.


Is there ANYBODY here who doesn't yet get this point? Please PM me so I can find you and smack you in the head with a ball peen hammer.

And when did the cross become the "symbol of Christianity"?? I would think the "symbol" would be how you treat your fellow man.. charity.. empathy... etc.. not a cheap token worn as an adornment.

Well, the simple fact of the matter is the cross is a symbol of Christianity (along with the Jesus Fish, halos, IXOYE, and other assorted sundry), whether you approve or not. And the simple fact of the matter is that people like to adorn themselves and their homes and workplaces with symbols of their religion, whether you approve or not.

Good luck trying to change everyone's mind by explaining how cheap, stupid and offensive you think it is. I find that always works amazingly well.


And if decorating oneself with overt religious symbols is ok for one group (i.e. yarmalukes), it is flat out discrimination if this same privilege is denied to other religious groups, any way you slice it.

 

[itsbob]

Isn't the basis of religion the relationship between the person and their chosen deity? Do you know if she feels a need to wear a crucifix based on her own spirituality? Why shouldn't her own rights be protected at the same level as someone who follows the mandates of an organized religion?

Why would I need to know she's wearing it? Why should it matter to her if it's worn outside of her shirt or inside?

I can walk up and down the hallway of my place of employment and I can't tell you the religious preference of anyone here. i can however tell you which ones are decent people and which ones aren't.

They prove that to me daily by their actions, not by some trinket they wear.

 

[itsbob]

Is there ANYBODY here who doesn't yet get this point? Please PM me so I can find you and smack you in the head with a ball peen hammer.

Then we can all wear hammers around our necks ....

 

[Toxick]

Then why post this?

It was not the hammer and nails that killed Jesus, but the crucifix, or the act of crucifixion

People killed Christ.

Much the same way that guns don't kill people.


I don't see the cross as a weapon, any more than I see the wall behind the man in front of a firing squad as a weapon. It's a location. A site. If a weapon is to be found, it is that which pierced the skin and voilated the body. That is the nails. And the hammer which drove them.

You've compared the cross to a noose. Whereas I tend see the tree around which the noose is tied as the closer comparison.



But whatever, that was a simple semantic argument, and not even close to the important part of my point.

 

[Marie]

Not sure how this is going to play out.......at work an associate attorney recently told her secretary that she found her cross necklace (it may have been a crucifix, not sure) offensive and instructed her to put it under her shirt. The majority of the attorneys (partners & associates) are Jewish. The secretary has gone to speak with the Office Manager about it.

Well If anything becomes of it she can contact the ACLJ American Center For Law and Justice
http://www.aclj.org/Contact/
Or
http://www.christianlaw.org/component/option,com_mosforms/Itemid,125/
Both provide free legal services for these type cases

 

[Starman3000m]

And again, if they chose to use a noose, would they wear that weapon of choice around their necks? How about if the decapitated him? A tiny guillotine? Or a BIG axe? A form of execution is still a form of execution.

Yes, "A form of execution is still a form of execution" as the average observer would see it - but this "execution" was in God's Plan and for a specific purpose. Jesus foretold of His own death and the purpose of it when he conveyed His Message to the disciples around Him:

And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. (Mark 8:31)

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. (John 12:27)

God Did For Mankind What Abraham Was Going To Do For God.

 

[Bavarian]

The point of the question was if one could wear jewlery that others found offensive. And what rights do people have to express their Faith. Do we want this country to be like France where all religious symbols are forbidden? They did it to stop Muslim headscarfs, but banned all to be fair.
Since this case is in the private sector, I think the person has little rights. She should leave that den of evil.

 

[SamSpade]

They prove that to me daily by their actions, not by some trinket they wear.

Unless it's a turban worn by Sikhs (or any of the 5 K's), or a yarmulke if you're a Jew, or a Tilaka if you're a Hindu, or a pentagram if you're Wiccan.

Or a Nats baseball cap. If you're a masochist.
Or a Che Guevara T-shirt if you're - I have no idea why people wear those things.

If people want to wear a symbol of their faith, big deal. It's hardly a new thing.

 

[Radiant1]

As for the cross being a weapon, as far as Christians are concerned Jesus turned that weapon into something glorious with a completely different meaning so we just don't view it that way. :shrug:

With that being said, IMO wearing a cross is not a requirement of her faith such as a turban, hijab or a yarmulke might be, she should just put it under her shirt and go about her day. She knows it's there. :shrug:

 

[Radiant1]

A Jew wearing a Yarmulke (kippot), Turban for a Sikh, Tilaka (?) for a Hindu is different than a Christian wearing a Cross.

You can't make a comparison, between the Christian advertising and the other following a tenent of the belief.

 

[SamSpade]

A Jew wearing a Yarmulke (kippot), Turban for a Sikh, Tilaka (?) for a Hindu is different than a Christian wearing a Cross.

You can't make a comparison, between the Christian advertising and the other following a tenent of the belief.

Oh jeez. This really is hair-splitting.

When I was a more devout Christian, I also eschewed any outward sign of my faith, because I did think that my actions alone should speak for themselves. But I also knew that any "advertisement" had the double effect of putting my own azz on the line - if you go on record showing you're a Christian, you can't be seen plowing through porn on the Internet or cursing someone out, can you? NOT showing any outward affectation gave me a bit of anonymity regarding my faith - I could act like a jerk and no one could call me "hypocrite" (which always strikes me as weird - people go apesh!t over 'hypocrites' doing what they do themselves all the time, as though the hypocrisy trumps the action itself in degree of wrongness).

I know people who brag about the charity, and people who keep it so silent, you'd think they were misers. I certainly know people who advertise all kinds of things about their life which I could care less about - how well their kid does in school, how and where they served in the military, who they donate to and what politics they support.

Jeez, just let them. Personally I think getting all worked up over it is much more irritating than people who advertise. It suggests to me unresolved issues.

 

[Roughidle]

Had to look it up just to be sure sure...yes sir..."wrongness" really is a word. Good job Sam.

 

[Radiant1]

Oh jeez. This really is hair-splitting.

I don't think it is. It's not a requirement of her faith, so does she have a right to it in the work place?

 

[Toxick]

You can't make a comparison, between the Christian advertising and the other following a tenent of the belief.

I can, because I find this distinction of "advertising" irrelevant.

A yarmaluke or a burqa are quite simply overt displays of one's religious belief.
A cross pendant is quite simply an overt display of one's religious belief.

Ban all or ban none, but to ban specific ones is nothing but discrimination.

Suppose I decide to branch off into a distinct christian denomination (I shall call us The East Coast Toxist Church) where it IS required that we wear and display Christian themed jewelry or clothing. Would that make it OK then?




Having said all that, I new feel the need to clarify something: I think this case is silly, and politically I side with the lawyers. It's their private business, and therefore, IMO, they can require or ban whatever they want. They can make her wear a sequin school-girl skirt and a "SLUT" t-shirt, and ban panties for all I care. However, discrimination based on creed IS illegal, and that's exactly what this is.

 

[Radiant1]

Suppose I decide to branch off into a distinct christian denomination (I shall call us The East Coast Toxist Church) where it IS required that we wear and display Christian themed jewelry or clothing. Would that make it OK then?

Perhaps so.

However, discrimination based on creed IS illegal, and that's exactly what this is.

It's not like the woman got fired because she was Christian.

 

[Toxick]

If a Christian had the same mandate, to wear the cross, that would be different, but as far as i (or others) know, there isnt a Xtian mandate to wear the cross.

The East Coast Toxist Church requires it.


It also requires that they stone anyone who writes "Xtian", so watch out. Those people are friggin' zealots.

 

[Toxick]

It's not like the woman got fired because she was Christian.

No, but she is being treated differently.

Viz: She is prohibited from showing outward symbol of her religion, while others are free to traipse around the office with their outward symbols on display.

 

[SamSpade]

No its not splitting hairs.

A Jew, Hindu or Sikh are mandated by their religion to wear the adornments of their religion. Christians are not mandated to wear the cross, they choose to do that as an expression of their belief (that is what i meant by advertisement).

Actually, only the Sikh is required to follow the five K's - the others are strongly kept customs. And you didn't mention the Wiccan pentagram. And I could just as easily throw in the Muslim crescent, topi or Buddhist mao-tzu or any of their affectations of their faith. The point is - jeez, why does anyone give a crap about it? Is there just something about religion that non-religious people get so worked up over? My best friend's desk is littered with Steelers paraphenalia, and one of my other good friends is always wearing something related to the Raiders. Another advertises their tree-hugging, anti-global warming "green" politics. Another, her crap for Amnesty International and Greenpeace.

And - every - friggin - morning - I hear an anti-Bush diatribe by one of my pod mates.

And it doesn't bother me. The world will never cease to have such people in it. And it would be massively self-righteous of me to make a big deal of it, because it would place me in judgment of them.The people who DO bother me are the incessant, shrill, caterwauling complainers. Why? Because they always have something to complain about - the list is inexhaustible.

 

[Roughidle]

I think everyone should have to dress the same. We could even begin a selective breeding and educational program so everyone looks and thinks the same. If that moves along too slowly we could then start an aggressive euthanization program to get rid of any undesirables. First we need to come up with a cool symbol. Maybe borrow one from ancient pagan society to give it validity.