Did the Pope just say unless your Catholic....

[Midnightrider]

Thanks for clearing that up.





I'm getting an image of you at a party. There are several groups at the party talking about all sorts of things. You go get yourself a refreshing beverage from the punchbowl and look for places to mingle. You meander over to a nearby group, where several guys are talking about football. You listen for a couple minutes and then chime in with, "You know football is just a bunch of senseless violence, and the players are all thugs. I don't know how you can stand to watch it".

You then go over to another group discussing politics. A democrat and a republican are arguing the relative merits of their party and the weakesses of their opponents. You pipe in with, "Both political parties are filled with crooks and weasels. You all should be ashamed for aligning yourselves with these crminals".

Move over to the people discussing their favorite TV shows. You fill everyone in on your belief that everything on TV is worthless tripe, and anyone who watches the idiot-box is a braindead zombie.

A bunch of people talking about the some new songs they've been hearing on the radio. You tell them how the music industry has completely sapped out all creativity in music, and nothing original has been created in decades, and that anyone who listens to the crap spewing out of the radio is a moron.



What fun.

you should really try NOT talking out your azz.

 

[Toxick]

you should really try NOT talking out your azz.

you should really try NOT talking.

 

[Midnightrider]

you should really try NOT talking.

and to think i used to respect you opinion on some things, when did you turn into 2nd A?

 

[Toxick]

and to think i used to respect you opinion on some things, when did you turn into 2nd A?

I didn't.

I just found your post to be completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand and was nothing more than pointless ####-stirring.


for the sake of


The voracity of the biblical text, its source, and the validity of that source wasn't currently a subject that was being debated, since all parties discussing the issue accept it as a given. And your chiming in with your old mantra added nothing to the conversation at hand except distraction and provocation.

 

[Midnightrider]

I didn't.

I just found your post to be completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand and was nothing more than pointless ####-stirring.


for the sake of


The voracity of the biblical text, its source, and the validity of that source wasn't currently a subject that was being debated, since all parties discussing the issue accept it as a given. And your chiming in with your old mantra added nothing to the conversation at hand except distraction and provocation.

if you were to just look at what i was responding to you would see that i made a valid response, sorry this doesnt fit your agenda, but i dont really care, if you dont like it, dont read it.

 

[Toxick]

if you were to just look at what i was responding to you would see that i made a valid response, sorry this doesnt fit your agenda, but i dont really care, if you dont like it, dont read it.

I didn't say it wasn't valid... I said it was irrelevant and pointless. Very much like entering a discussion where people are talking about their favorite TV shows and pointing out that all TV today is garbage: perhaps a valid observation, but not useful to the topic at hand.


And that has nothing to do with my agenda, whatever that may be.

 

[Midnightrider]

I didn't say it wasn't valid... I said it was irrelevant and pointless. Very much like entering a discussion where people are talking about their favorite TV shows and pointing out that all TV today is garbage: perhaps a valid observation, but not useful to the topic at hand.


And that has nothing to do with my agenda, whatever that may be.

just about as irrelevent and pointless as your first response to my post.....

 

[Toxick]

just about as irrelevent and pointless as your first response to my post.....

Ok

 

[2ndAmendment]

Well that's something at least, thank you. No problem returning the favor, I don't take it upon myself to speak for Protestants.



No, they are not. I worship as a Catholic (Catholic meaning "universal") which was founded by Jesus Christ Son of God in 33 AD. You apparently worship as a non-denomenational 20th c phenomenon founded by 2A a mere man with dubious scriptural interpretations. The scripture passages in Matthew and Acts were given to you for a reason, so that you will see the Church as founded by Jesus and the act of Apostolic succession (the laying on of hands). Do not just look at what the scripture says but also look at what is done. This act of succession has been carried down to this day and bishops can trace their ecclesial lineage back to the beginning and that very same Church that Jesus Christ Son of God founded. You, 2A, cannot say that and to call any church that cannot do so is deceitful.

I thought you didn't speak for Protestants and here you are telling me what I am and am not. The body of all Christians, no matter what denomination - Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, is the Church. You disagree. Too bad. Jesus established the first church in Jerusalem. There is no account that Jesus ever went to Rome. Christians were first called Christians in Antioch. Christianity was taken to Rome by Paul and he was put to death for his effort. There is no evidence that Peter ever went to Rome. The Christian church certainly was not the official religion of Rome until about 300 years after Peter's death. I have read at a Catholic web site that that is irrelevant, but while it may be irrelevant to Catholics, I find it relevant.

Historical list for the Bishop of Rome



Wrong again 2A! Where was that preface you promised me? Byzantine Catholics are CATHOLICS, who acknowledge the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) as first among equals. Would you like to re-think and then re-phrase?

Maybe you might want to rethink. The Byzantine Catholic churches or Eastern Churches are fully autonomous although they do recognize the Bishop of Rome — the Pope.

What Catholics call apocrypha are 7 books not 14. The other 7 are referred to as “deuterocanonicals” which were included in the Septuagint, used by all Greek speaking Jews in the 1st century (that includes Jesus!) and most assuredly is the Word of God. To make it simple, suffice it to say that the bible used from the time the canon was closed at the Council of Rome in 382 (and re-affirmed again in the years 393, 397, 405, 419, 787, 1442, 1546, 1870 and 1965) is the same bible used by Catholics and Orthodox (Apostolic church) today. The bible was indeed changed by reformers. They removed books that did not suit their theology and referred back to Jerome and even the Jewish reactionary Council of Jamnia (which also rejected the entire New Testament btw!) in order to justify the action.

According to the historical time line of the Bible, the 14 books were part of the Septuagint and were completed by the year 200 BC. Again, we disagree.

OK, but without those 7 termed “deuterocanonicals” you're not working with the full scriptures and the New Testament references to the “deuterocanonicals” is lost to you. May the Holy Spirit guide you in your studies regardless of this fact.

And may the Holy Spirit keep you from learning fallacy and [t]radition if those books are in error.

Which is why it is important that one be in unity with the Apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ Son of God with whom He gave the authority to bind and loose and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If not, you get over 20,000 some odd protesting denominations, or non-denominations if you will, with willy nilly interpretations and mass confusion.

Martin Luther was right to split from Rome. The selling of indulgences was an abomination. Even the Pope cannot sell "get out of hell free passes." There were lots of abuses in the Roman Catholic church and the Pope was not willing to fix them. One was the belief of [t]radition over Scripture. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm It is the Roman Catholics that are in error in my opinion. Not on the major issue of Salvation through Jesus but in many issues. It is plain to me that we must agree to disagree or we have the potential to argue incessantly and I choose not to do that.

Good on you brother, on that we certainly can agree. You stick to what you do best with the basic gospel message. Making erroneous comments about what Catholics believe regarding how that path is laid out is not what you do best.

May the peace of the Lord be with you.

JMJ

And may God bless you. It would be far better for Christians of all denominations to concentrate on Jesus and not on the twists of men. As the last days get closer, the Bible prophesies that most of those that call themselves Christian will fall away. There will be a remnant. May we all be faithful to the very end.

 

[JPC sr]

Scofflaw and Personal Responsibility.

why does faith have to be prepackaged and mass marketed? Its almost as if each faith tries to sell itself as being better than brand x.

Many people need it that way. We must let them be.

In heaven I doubt God cares what church you went to as long as you were a good person and brought goodness (not righteousness) to those around you.

We are to bring the righteouness to this world and not goodness.

That is the mistake of the "knowledge of good and evil" from the original sin, link HERE.

We have principles and commandments that tell us what is right and wrong so we have the ability to bring righteouness everywhere,

but good and bad are subject to interpretations and disputes and that is why it was the forbidden knowledge - and the original sin is still continuing today as people try to figure out what is good or bad instead of doing right and not doing wrong.

It seems very simple but it is very harmful.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Wow. You sure got me with that one.
How quickly you resort to insults.

It's not an insult Toxick, it's an observation, IMHO

 

[ItalianScallion]

no, all chrisitian faiths are 100% man made doctrine. Men wrote the bible, there is no way arond it, to ignore this FACT is the true injustice to God.

Son, you need to stay out of this battle because you are unarmed. You are spiritually unable to see that yes, while the Bible was written entirely by men, they were controlled by God who made their words PERFECT. How could the Genesis creation story be written by a man hundreds or thousands of years after, if he wasn't there to see it? They wrote about God's doctrine, not mans.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Son, you need to stay out of this battle because you are unarmed. You are spiritually unable to see that yes, while the Bible was written entirely by men, they were controlled by God who made their words PERFECT. How could the Genesis creation story be written by a man hundreds or thousands of years after, if he wasn't there to see it? They wrote about God's doctrine, not mans.

Do yourself a favor, just ignore Midnight. He/she just wants to belittle and generally deride Christians.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I wouldn't call what you've been saying about the Church truth at all. Obviously something really upset you about the Church during your time with us. Probably a bad priest or a bad nun or some other bad example of a Catholic. You are presenting your opinion, which is based on a literal and superficial understanding of both the Church and the Bible. Your view of religion is understandable, but I do not understand why you feel it necessary to be so inflammatory and degrading of my religion, which has one billion adherents. You have misrepresented my faith.
I suggest that either you keep to learning more about your own religion and trying to convert people to Jesus's way. However, I ask that you stop degrading my faith. And, you are not an authority on the Church. Just because you were a Catholic for seventeen years in the 60s and 70s doesn't mean that you are an authority. Did you read the Catechism? How about the documents of early Church leaders? Confessions by St. Augustine? Have you talked with more than two priests abotu these things? Do you have a degree in theology? If you haven't done these things, then shut up and never use the term "authority" in regards to a religion that you do not belong to.

You are obviously deeply indoctrinated. What is your statement based on? I challenge you to point out ANYTHING I said that isn't true of the catholic church. I am concerned for people's salvation. I did not encounter a bad priest or nun. I know the lies of the catholic church that have prevented people from TRULY being saved. You don't know your own faith my friend. I thought I was doing fine as a catholic, until I got saved. From then on I've made it my life's work to tell other's the truth just as Jesus did. I've spent thousands of hours RECENTLY talking with catholic people and hearing what they are taught TODAY (especially kids) and I find it dangerous! Why a truly saved person would stay in that church is beyond me, but I do know some great Christian people who do. You are another one who looks at my caring to point out the truth, as hatred or degrading, just as the Pharisees looked down on Jesus when He spoke against their false beliefs. Your catechisms, St. Augustine's writings & early church documents are useless against what the Bible says and many will "go down with their ship" because they took man's word over God's. I will stand in front of God one day and feel good that I pointed out these things to people. I would be guilty of sin if I didn't. I don't do it hatefully or arrogantly. Show me where if I did. You are the ones who get upset with what I'm saying. If you read the Bible you'll see that I don't need a degree to know God's truth. What can man teach that God can't? I'll wait for you to point out what I said wrong against the church. I could give you 3 more typed pages after that, ALL BACKED UP BY BIBLE VERSES.

 

[Radiant1]

I thought you didn't speak for Protestants and here you are telling me what I am and am not. The body of all Christians, no matter what denomination - Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, is the Church. You disagree. Too bad.

Call yourself church all you want, we were discussing your use of the term Apostolic. For you to call any Protestant denomination or any "non-denomination" after the reformation Apostolic is deceitful.

Jesus established the first church in Jerusalem.

Yup.

There is no account that Jesus ever went to Rome.

Yup.

Christians were first called Christians in Antioch.

Yup.

Christianity was taken to Rome by Paul and he was put to death for his effort.

Yup.

There is no evidence that Peter ever went to Rome.

Nope. Let me refer you to the historical evidence:

Clement - Letter to the Corinthians (pre A.D. 70)
Ignatius of Antioch - Letter to the Romans(A.D. 110)
Irenaeus - Against Heresies (A.D. 190)
Tertullian - The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200)

There are more but that should suffice.

The Christian church certainly was not the official religion of Rome until about 300 years after Peter's death. I have read at a Catholic web site that that is irrelevant, but while it may be irrelevant to Catholics, I find it relevant.

Yup. It took that long for a Roman Emperor to proclaim Christianity "official", that doesn't mean it didn't exist, refer to the sources cited above.

Maybe you might want to rethink. The Byzantine Catholic churches or Eastern Churches are fully autonomous although they do recognize the Bishop of Rome — the Pope.

Yup. Like I said, they're CATHOLIC. You are confusing a rite with a church. I find your continued and willful attempt at educating me amusing.

According to the historical time line of the Bible, the 14 books were part of the Septuagint and were completed by the year 200 BC. Again, we disagree. And may the Holy Spirit keep you from learning fallacy and [t]radition if those books are in error.

Fair 'nuff. I'll stick to the full scriptures and you can leave yourself hanging.

Martin Luther was right to split from Rome. The selling of indulgences was an abomination. Even the Pope cannot sell "get out of hell free passes." There were lots of abuses in the Roman Catholic church and the Pope was not willing to fix them. One was the belief of [t]radition over Scripture. http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm

Martin Luther was indeed right to protest and tack his 95 thesis upon the door. Where he erred was by not reforming from within but by splitting. Other reformers have later become saints btw; off the top of my head:

St. Peter Damien, St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Charles Borromeo, St. Philip Neri.... too bad Luther went too far or we could be celebrating his feast day as well.

It is the Roman Catholics that are in error in my opinion. Not on the major issue of Salvation through Jesus but in many issues. It is plain to me that we must agree to disagree or we have the potential to argue incessantly and I choose not to do that.

I cannot keep you from your opinions; however, I would like to leave you with something to ponder on... in saying the Catholic Church is in error then you are calling Jesus a liar:

Matthew 16:16-19
16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

And may God bless you. It would be far better for Christians of all denominations to concentrate on Jesus and not on the twists of men.

Agreed. So please, man, stop twisting Catholic teaching and we will have no problems in the future. It is painful and upsetting to others.

As the last days get closer, the Bible prophesies that most of those that call themselves Christian will fall away. There will be a remnant. May we all be faithful to the very end.

I hope to see you on the Other Side in the Light of Christ, brother. May He bless and keep you always.

JMJ

 

[Toxick]

It's not an insult Toxick, it's an observation, IMHO

Calling someone witless is an insult.


Period.

 

[rraley]

I'll wait for you to point out what I said wrong against the church. I could give you 3 more typed pages after that, ALL BACKED UP BY BIBLE VERSES.

We can get involved with this exercise or you can shut up and take your crusade to gain more Christians away from demeaning my Church, which is the FIRST Christian church. I have seen several failures and I do not want to take the time to go through this entire thread to point out all of them after so many have already called you out on that. You throw back these Bible verses that are then taken as a literal point by you and not given a deeper thought. Your thoughts are based on your local pastor who "saved" or your own mind and isn't based at all on serious scholarship in terms of reading councilar documents, the words of early Church leaders, or actually insightful intrepretations that go further than your dime novel interpretation of simple words.

You can stop sayinig that I hold Mary and the saints in the same sort of divinity as God and Jesus. Obviously you do not understand what Catholicism is about. Someone didn't explain it to you correctly or you don't have the intellectual ability to understand these things called nuances. Look the definition of that term up in the dictionary. Repetitious prayer in the Bible refers to the Gentiles not meaning their words in prayer. Recall, Jesus gave us our own "standardized, repetitious" prayer in the form of the Our Father.

And quit comparing yourself to Christ overcoming the Pharisees. Talk about ego for you. Maybe I should leave my Church based in thousands of years of teachings and understandings all the way from the Apostoles and follow your whims and teachings. That does seem like it would be better.

 

[ItalianScallion]

We can get involved with this exercise or you can shut up and take your crusade to gain more Christians away from demeaning my Church, which is the FIRST Christian church. I have seen several failures and I do not want to take the time to go through this entire thread to point out all of them after so many have already called you out on that. You throw back these Bible verses that are then taken as a literal point by you and not given a deeper thought. Your thoughts are based on your local pastor who "saved" or your own mind and isn't based at all on serious scholarship in terms of reading councilar documents, the words of early Church leaders, or actually insightful intrepretations that go further than your dime novel interpretation of simple words.

You can stop sayinig that I hold Mary and the saints in the same sort of divinity as God and Jesus. Obviously you do not understand what Catholicism is about. Someone didn't explain it to you correctly or you don't have the intellectual ability to understand these things called nuances. Look the definition of that term up in the dictionary. Repetitious prayer in the Bible refers to the Gentiles not meaning their words in prayer. Recall, Jesus gave us our own "standardized, repetitious" prayer in the form of the Our Father.

And quit comparing yourself to Christ overcoming the Pharisees. Talk about ego for you. Maybe I should leave my Church based in thousands of years of teachings and understandings all the way from the Apostoles and follow your whims and teachings. That does seem like it would be better.

As a general rule with me, I can tell when a person doesn't have any more ammunition in them. They tell me to shut up and go away. You can't or won't see what your church "is about", so I'll not darken you comment pages anymore, but you will not shut me up about what I'll say here to others.

 

[Bavarian]

The Holy Father, Pope Benedict the XVI is trying to get the Heretics, Schismatics to repent before it is too late. As the Vicar of Christ, it is his job.
Read the Fatima visions where souls are falling like snowflakes into Hell, which does exist as does Purgatory.
Extra Eclesia, nulla Sanctis!

 

[itsbob]

Even if the Pope had said such a foolish thing then still nobody goes to any place of torture as is falsely called "hell".

The Bible words for hell only meant the common grave. Dead and buried.

The true message of the Bible is that Christ paid the price in full for all of the whole world for everybody everywhere throughout all times.

Everybody gets saved in the end, in fact everybody has salvation now because Christ already paid the price in full.

..................................... Unconditional love.

According to who's church, EXACTLY.. if you're going to quote doctrine, please tell us WHO's Doctrine.