Does Islam preach Hate?

[jimmy]

Well there are certainly passages in the Koran which, depending on how interpreted, are certainly aggressive in nature. And Mohammed's campaigns/wars etc are a source of great pride to many muslims.

But the thing I find interesting about the Muslim faith is that it's young enough to really have been recorded directly and, thus, you can really see the political nature of many of the verses, stories, actions etc.

However, I still feel that religions of ALL types tend to reject hate and anger and its only in a loose interpretation that extreemists find their justifications. The 19 men that went to their death here (not all knowingly) were not really examples of Islam. Visiting strip clubs, drinking; all things heavily condemned by the Islamic code. However, Bin Laden and his group seem, to me, to be using the religious propaganda to both further a personal vendetta on Bin Laden's part and to garner support from the Arab world.

He doesn't give 2 shits about the Palestinians. He's all pissed about the US in Saudi Arabia and being exiled from there and ostricized by his family. It's the same thing with Saddam, who has basically outlawed ALL religion in HIS country, yet, he calims have all this sympathy for the Palestinian cause. He is NOT representative of the VAST majority of muslims on this planet but, since they are so foreign to us and have a very small representation over here, we don't understand and we group them all together.

The loudest voices are the ones we hear and the ones blowing things up certainly are speaking the loudest. And that's probably the point. But every time someone in America suggests that Islam, because of the actions of the fundamentalists, is an evil hateful religion, you are actually HELPING those a-holes in their cause!!

THe more they hear us talking about how all Muslims should be "bloodied" and how we should nuke the middle east off the face of the planet, the more WE can be demonized as well in the eyes of the so-called "moderate" Arab world.

It's ignorance fueling ignorance in a seemingly eternal cycle which, unless we truly educate ourselves on the real issues and try to see past our prejudices (both sides), will not be broken in our lifetimes.

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by jimmy
...The loudest voices are the ones we hear and the ones blowing things up certainly are speaking the loudest. And that's probably the point. But every time someone in America suggests that Islam, because of the actions of the fundamentalists, is an evil hateful religion, you are actually HELPING those a-holes in their cause!!

First, since those "peaceful Muslims" everyone keeps referencing don't speak up, and yes I have been listening, that speaks volumes to the nature of the faith. They aren't the minority so many claim. The Saudi's, one of the more "westernized" of the Arab nations, is rife with Wahhabi's. They're creating schools to teach them, train them to fight etc.

...THe more they hear us talking about how all Muslims should be "bloodied" and how we should nuke the middle east off the face of the planet, the more WE can be demonized as well in the eyes of the so-called "moderate" Arab world...

Maybe if they brought an end to the murder, bombing and mayhem we'd ease up a little! Ya think?

If we had teams staging attacks, from this nation, on Arab countries don't you think the Federal government and other agencies would be rounding them up and intervening whereever they could find them?
Funny we don't get that from the Arab world. Instead they pay to create these lunatics.

Since it's my "bloodied" and re-iteration of Schwartzkopfts "Glass floored, self-lit parking lot", I'll take that to mean I'm part of the problem too. Oh well!

When someone is attempting to kill you and yours do you...?

A. Offer them a Coke and a ?

B. Organize a committee to study the "Socio-economic impact of 226 years of Imperialist/Capitalist atrocities committed against their ancestors back to the time of Ibrahim?

C. Confront and Kill these fanatics before they manage to cause mayhem and death to ours.

I'll take C.

...It's ignorance fueling ignorance in a seemingly eternal cycle which, unless we truly educate ourselves on the real issues and try to see past our prejudices (both sides), will not be broken in our lifetimes...

I guess this means you'll pick B!

 

[Slynx]

Kyle~~ I know what you are saying. What I have read of the Quran has been somewhat contradictory of itself from one page to another. I think someone on the board wrote about those who interpret and twist the text to further their own causes, not for the good of mankind. How true that is in ANY arena, not just religion. But, to be fair, if you read the OT with the zealousness it was written with, you see a God of anger and smite. (All girl Catholic High School you know....) Those Nuns thought they could scare us into being good girls!

Jimmy~ I enjoyed reading your last post.....

 

[jimmy]

Yeah, Kyle, given those choices I'd have to pick "B". The least reactionary, violent, misinformed, ethnocentric of the bunch...how'd you guess??

I really don't like the "nuke 'em all" attidue that I see so many Americans pushing with this conflict. Is that how we should solve ALL of our conflicts, regardless of where they are? Or is this just the "best" solution for the middle east.

The reprocussions from such a heinous act are SO severe that it's almost LAUGHABLE to even have that suggested.

Now, Kyle, you seem like a smart enough guy to not ACTUALLY be proposing that we use nuclear weapons on the whole MIDDLE EAST. So what would be your course of action, if education, diplomacy and rationale have no chance in your mind?

 

[jimmy]

Thanks, Slynx (if you were serious...lots o' sarcasm on these threads.... )

And one more thing. Yes the voices of the moderate muslims (unquestionably the majority; I dont' know how you can argue against that) ARE softer than the extreemists. To OUR ears.

But which of OUR voices do you think the poorer MUSLIMS are hearing over THERE??? Those of us saying "spare them, they are mostly a good people; our war is NOT with Islam?" Or is it the "Make them pay, Islam is evil, we must nuke the middle east" voices that are certainly present in this country (as we've seen here)?

My guess would be that a fundamentalist movement would filter information to it's people much in the way many feel OUR news is filtered for us. (the pics of the palestinians celebrating etc...)

It's all in what you want to believe. And if you want to believe that Muslims are evil, you'll find enough news clippings and video shots to support your theory. And if Muslims want to believe that we're the devil and that all Americans HATE Islam, there are certainly voices out there they can listen to.

But why let yourself be one of them?? If you are among them then, YES Kyle, you ARE part of the problem. If you can't see that or don't care, well, I don't know what else to say.

 

[Kyle]

Slynx,

I use to know quite a few Catholic girls in my youth. Seems the Nuns didn't scare "all" the badness out of some of them!



You're right the OT does contain quite a bit of that, although here too I'm not a student of the OT...Or NT for that matter, so I can understand how the Qur'an might be twisted.

However what we have to deal with is the "practical", not the intended, nature of the religion as it's being applied.

 

[vraiblonde]

Kyle sez:

(must have been different French in those days Vrai)

Get 'em, Kyle! I'm right behind you...

 

[Kyle]

Jimmy,

Actually I don' t see this "Armageddon" in the use of tactical nuclear weapons. They're a tool. No different than the bunker busters, mortars or granades.......Just bigger.

My choices would be to evaporate their fuel source. The money.
They can't eat oil. They can't produce weapons without cash.

But just as I expected you failed to answer with any realistic choice.

Do you honestly believe it's possible to negotiate a realistic solution to the problems these people have with the rest of the world?
If so, you might be the one that has the answer....So pleeeeeeeeeeeeease hop a plane and go talk it over with them.

Take as much time as you need! Discuss some sociology!...........Religion!.........

You can tell them about all the passages where "Their" Qur'an is fundimentally flawwed!

They'll love you, I'm sure!



Actually Jimmy....Read a little history of the religion. I'm not being sarcastic here. Seriously. From the time of Mohammed it's been bathed in blood.

 

[vraiblonde]

Jimmy sez:

And if you want to believe that Muslims are evil, you'll find enough news clippings and video shots to support your theory. And if Muslims want to believe that we're the devil and that all Americans HATE Islam, there are certainly voices out there they can listen to.

Well, they DID make a rather bold statement ...

 

[jimmy]

Who's "THEY" Vrai? Your pic shows the WTC attacks. That's Al Qaida, not ALL MUSLIMS. ALL MUSLIMS weren't aboard those planes; ALL MUSLIMS don't condone the attacks on the US. Hell even MOST muslims don't do that.

Your problem, as is Kyle's problem, is that you are lumping everyone into the same category based on the actions of a few, deplorable people.

Kyle, what a naieve view of nuclear weapons that is. Another 'tool' of our military??? Hardly! You have any idea of the reprocussions of our use of tactical nukes instead of bunker bombs? We'd be the FIRST country to use them and, man, what a can of worms we'd be opening there....

I wasn't asked to provide a solution, Kyle, I belive YOU were by me. I didn't propose to know a solution to the problem, just that unfounded hatred of an entire religion is SURELY not the answer.

And all this "go talk sociology and religion with them" stuff. First of all, my first instict is politics and I'd keep giving diplomacy a try (as we've gone over time and again on these forums). But I'm also able to see the ramifications of nuclear attack on these areas. And where would we even attack? Their camps can be destroyed by conventional bombs, the caves can be "busted" and rooted out; So what then?

Just bomb Pakistan into the stone age because we know that they have radical, militant muslims there? Palestine? Afganistan? Iran? Iraq? Syria? Lybia? Sudan? Yemen? Algeria? Serbia? Croatia? N. Korea? Cuba? The Philipians? We just keep going until all areas that MIGHT harbor people that hate our country are destroyed instead of addressing just why it is that everyone hates us so much??? That's a GREAT plan!!!

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by jimmy
...Your problem, as is Kyle's problem, is that you are lumping everyone into the same category based on the actions of a few, deplorable people..

Again....If they don't clean up their scum and let them, send them, here who should be held accountable?

...Kyle, what a naieve view of nuclear weapons that is. Another 'tool' of our military??? Hardly! You have any idea of the reprocussions of our use of tactical nukes instead of bunker bombs? We'd be the FIRST country to use them and, man, what a can of worms we'd be opening there.....

I'd say it's you that has a naive view of nuclear weapons. They are a tool as any other....Warfare isn't always a switch......It's a rheostat...When things get worse you turn it up a little.
As for the repercussions......We've already used a nuclear weapon. Remember a little place called Hiroshima?

....I wasn't asked to provide a solution, Kyle, I belive YOU were by me. I didn't propose to know a solution to the problem, just that unfounded hatred of an entire religion is SURELY not the answer.....

When did I ever say I hated the religion number one.......And for you to accuse anyone of "hatred" of any religion is one hell of a hoot!

Helloooooooo Kettle!.............................You're black!

....And all this "go talk sociology and religion with them" stuff. First of all, my first instict is politics and I'd keep giving diplomacy a try (as we've gone over time and again on these forums)....

1. When has "Diplomacy" worked with this group in the past? Really?

2. And why should we continue to use a tactic that hasn't produced results.

...Just bomb Pakistan into the stone age because we know that they have radical, militant muslims there? Palestine? Afganistan? Iran? Iraq? Syria? Lybia? Sudan? Yemen? Algeria? Serbia? Croatia? N. Korea? Cuba? The Philipians? We just keep going until all areas that MIGHT harbor people that hate our country are destroyed instead of addressing just why it is that everyone hates us so much??? That's a GREAT plan!!!

No. You retaliate against open hostility with a swift and crushing blow that tells them they will be held accountable for their actions. IRAQ, IRAN, SYRIA, YEMEN, LIBYA have all demonstrated that they will attack at any opportunity.
Do you think when, not if but when, they develop nukes they will wrestle with these same moral ramifications you raise?

Libya was squashed in 1985 and they didn't attack anyone in the region again for over a decade. It wouldn't take more than one or two for them to get the idea. Japan figured it out after Nagasaki!


Jealousy! That's primarily what's behind the hatred. They want everything others have but don't want to develop the kind of society that will allow it to occur and thrive. No one can help them with that.........They have to change.
Israel is the other predominant factor.

If we trade with them for Oil....You and the SMC Anti-Defamation League see that as Hegemonic I'm sure. More Dastardly Capitalist influence. (I'd love to know where this Marxist haven is that you lot idolize) If we back out then I'm sure we're isolating them and that won't please those of that ilk either.
Since none of us are as "Educated and Enlightened" as your liberal philosophy makes you I'll wait for your answer to this problem.

I can't wait!

As for mine...It's easy!....Greet all with an open hand...If they strike out.....Make a fist!!! It works!

Jimmy I've answered enough of your questions.....Why don't you answer a few of mine. They're posted all throughout this thread.
I'm genuinely curious as to your answers. I'm sure it'll give me a better insight into Liberal logic.

 

[daniel]

Don't stop there jimmy. If we are gonna take care of everyone who hates us we better increase our defense spending by 500% , afterall we would need to completely destroy every other country. They all hate us! Thank god for dubya, he is making all sorts of friends, oh no wait i forgot, he is just pissing them off even more.

as for your last few posts, very good points jimmy!

 

[vraiblonde]

Jimmy, in your zeal to not stereotype people (which is admirable, BTW), you forget one thing:

Humans (that's us) are animals. We have a highly developed survival instinct (um, well, most of us anyway). This survival instinct is why people avoid anyone who doesn't look or act like them - think racism here if you want. BUT it also tells you that all can (and will) be judged by the most visible members of their group (in this case, it's the Muslim religion).

I highly doubt that a herd of zebras confronting a pack of lions stops to get to know them and see if they're a threat or not. No. They assume the lions are like every other lion they've ever seen and they run like hell.

You say that's my "problem". Well, Jimmy, I have no problem with this.

Now you can say how would I like being judged by the actions of Andrea Yates or Timothy McVeigh. I don't - which is one of the reasons I've been outspoken in my disgust with them and their actions. Funny that I've seen very few Muslims denouncing these terrorists - even the ones who are over here living fat off the land in the good ol' USA.

Not ALL Muslims were aboard that plane, true. But enough of them cheered and hoorayed, both here and abroad, that it should make us wary.

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
....Not ALL Muslims were aboard that plane, true. But enough of them cheered and hoorayed, both here and abroad, that it should make us wary.

That's the bottom line isn't it?

 

[Heretic]

Jimmy

Musulims do have really "out there" sterotypes of Americans. You say they know more about us than we know about them. I know someone that was in Egypt for a few months for work. They happened to get some VHS tapes in the mail from home. These tapes has NASCAR races on them, but immediately the Egyptians thought they were pornography, since it is legal in America that must be what Americans do all day sit at home, drink watch porn and have sex with unmarried women. This was comming from some of the more educated members of their society (a couple electrial and aerospace engineers) that happened to speak perfect English. It's really quite a common belief that Americans participate in activities that their religion and country forbids every minute of every day. Their political and religious leaders tell them this every day all day, so of course they believe it.

 

[Hessian]

Andwhat...
What drug-induced "History Lesson" would you like to share next with us? Perhaps the Roman Empire fell to the Hindus?

"Ok history lesson time. the reason that the Koran speaks of the hatred for jews is that the original 12 Israeli tribes swept over all of arabia and attempted to eradicate muslims."
...from the mind of Andwhat.

Lets see, Islam started in the 620's AD
The 12 tribes were scattered by Syria...and later Babylon, conquered by Greeks, then Rome and the remnant was nearly annihilated by the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD under Vespasian...how the heck did they "sweep(sic) over all arabia..." when they were scattered to the wind 530 years before?

This is the strange ramblings of someone so poorly grounded in "history" that his opinions really should have no bearing on this conversation.
And know, I didn't read that out of some almanac...this is what someone with a degree in History should know.

Also thank you to those who pointed out the splits in Islam...this does have bearing!
Jimmy will always pour the deepest of contempt on Christianity and shout hypocrisy to anyone who comes near...what I say again and again is: Look at the original source of Islam and Christianity.
Kyle wrote it succinctly and to the point:
Islam was born/bred/weened/and founded on violent conquest. When anyone can prove otherwise...they'll be the Antichrist -decieving millions.

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
...I highly doubt that a herd of zebras confronting a pack of lions stops to get to know them and see if they're a threat or not. No. They assume the lions are like every other lion they've ever seen and they run like hell....

Another example of hateful Lion bashing.....When they should be Lionized!


Those Zebra's are helping to perpetuate the myth that "all Lions are vicious, brutal kilers" when the vast overwhelming majority are harmless Vegans!
As the "SVLA"(Sarenghetti Vegetarian Lions Association) spokesman has said, "We must end these hateful attacks upon our species. Are we all to blame for the Carnivores among us?"

 

[jimmy]

Kyle, I'll speak to you first since you seem really eager for a reply...

First let me say that I'm not sure what your asking me but I think your asking if I prefer engaging these countries to purchase oil or if we should just leave the area alone? Is that it?

Well here's my thinking. I don't think that we have to engage in economic interaction with any regime that is hostile towards us. I also think we have a right to protect our citizens so, if we deem a place like Saudi Arabia a hate-breeding ground that poses a threat, I think we have a right to put pressure on them to do something to change that; basically, a wordy-way of saying exactly what you said! I don't really have a problem with your 'greet w/open hand; strike with fist" approach.

But I'd caution the US to be more careful about who we strike and with what type of fist than you. You are ready to attack Yemen and Syria, yet, these governments are (at this point) attempting to cooperate with us (information sharing, condemnation of terrorist attacks etc). When we get some direct aggression from these nations, I don't have a problem fighting back.

But "teaching them the lesson" that Japan learned in WWII is out of the question. I think I remember hearing of Truman saying that, had he to do it over again, he wouldn't have dropped those bombs...but I'm not sure.

Either way, that kind of beating would simply NOT be tolerated by the international community and would, in my estimation be complete overkill. Nukes work by the principle of "if you have em, and I have em, neither of us will use them" (M.A.D.).

As to the question of "do I think that these countries would hesitate to use them if they had them"? My guess is no. And that's a scary thought. We should really be paying closer attention to the India/Pakistan conflict because that's a very similar situation to this hypothetical one, ie., countries with long-standing feuds over a geographic area with nuclear capabilites.

This is all the more reason for us to engage in diplomacy though. If these rouge states develop nuclear weapons, insetead of preparing for war, we should be working to prevent it. I guess that's just my nature to look to that first but I don't see the answer as just smaking these countries SO hard, they lose the urge to express their discontent with us.

As such a powerful country, I feel we have a responsibility NOT to act in this way. I believe swatting our hand at any country that may be unfriendly without looking at the problem goes against the freedoms and ideology that we supposedly uphold as Americans.

Another flaw I see in your thinking is that these countries NEED to change their societies to be more like us and have the freedoms we have. Why is that necessary? Because we've made it so? Globalization has hurt many countries that refuse to make this change and it has hurt many that HAVE. I don't believe that in order to engage with these countries we must be coming from a common ground. Again, here, I see the importance of diplomacy over power.

So, I suppose, my bottom line is this. There is a reason that these countries hate us so much and I don't believe it lies in "jealously". It's a feeling that we are imposing our will on them, coupled with misinformation about our intentions for Islam. But people like you going around SAYING these negative things about the whole religion, only reinforce that thinking on their side because YOU are making it seem true.

 

[jimmy]

Vrai, (i'm trying to go in order)

The arguement I believe you are making is that it is human nature for us to lash out against those whom we deem are a threat and that we will tend to recognize the "more agressive lions" in the pack, rather than the ones soaking up the shade under a tree.

Well my only reply would be that, also as humans, we have the intellect to exercise self restraint, judgement and reason. It is human nature to spread my seed as often as I can but reason and good judgement tell me to exercise restraint. It is in our nature to be aggressive and hostile towards those who we see as threats but we don't kick the crap outta someone that gets the promotion we are passed up for.

My point is that simply boiling it down to our 'animalistic nature' and then writing off responsibility is unacceptable. Simply because, yes, it is our first instinct to see the people cheering in the streets and feel threatened, this doesn not justify a forceful response.

"Not ALL Muslims were aboard that plane, true. But enough of them cheered and hoorayed, both here and abroad, that it should make us wary."

Yes, you make a good point here. But "wary" isn't what I would say. It should make us "aware" that these feelings for us exist and we should look at the root of the problem. Is it REALLY because their religion in it's intended form teaches hatred of those who are different from them? Or does the problem lie in a more political realm where the people feel that western influence has changed their way of life and is being imposed upon?

Or, as I believe, is it the one (religion) being exploited in light of the other (politics)?

 

[jimmy]

Heretic, (and this will be quick)

"You say they know more about us than we know about them."

I never said that. I said BOTH sides don't know enough about eachother. The rest of your post is, in many ways true, and also part of the problem.