Does Islam preach Hate?

[jimmy]

Again, Vrai, you are ASSUMING my postion before I get a chance to respond...honestly, don't you all ever get tired of that crap??

I DO believe that this stuff is getting taught in some Islamic schools, yes, even in America....I BELIEVE THE ARTICLE!! WOW! Imagine that!!

Now, before I make a comment about how I feel about that happening, let me first say that my problem with that article is that it 1st supposes that this is happening in a majority or even MOST Islamic schools. I doubt this to be the case and present me with curriculums or syllabi if you would...if we can't make suppositions, neither can you.

Secondly, it then goes on to state that THIS is the type of mentality that young muslims in this country are being indoctrinated with. How many Muslims? 30,000? How many muslims are in this country? About 4 million roughly? Certainly not the OVERWHELMING percentage the article would have you believe.

Now, let's get to the acutal issue at hand. Personally, I think these schools are dangerous. I don't think that a school in this country should be teaching people to HATE the people in the country. Question, yes, disagree with, yes. But outright hatred shouldn't be taught in my opinion.

The question it brings up, however (and I'm NOT sure what I think here) is since this IS America, do these people have the right to fund their own schools and determine for themselves what should and shouldn't be taught?? If the TN school board can try and vote evolution out of the curriculum, (and I THINK it was TN but if I was wrong, it's irrelevant to the arguement) why can't these people teach their own view of world events???

I'm not sure because I feel that hatred shouldn't be taught. Especially when you consider how dangerous having sympathetic muslims with those feelings in our country would be. But what, if anything, can we do about it while upholding the principles that America was founded upon and continues to support?

Suggestions?

 

[jimmy]

Still don't understand the "white devil" comment, Monkey.

 

[vraiblonde]

JImmy, you raise an excellent point about freedoms in this country. But before we explore that, I'd like to hear your answer to James D's quesiton.

 

[andwhat]

James D, I'm the one who pulled the gay rights. I was reffering to the fact that in most states there are no laws protecting gays and lesbians from discrimination in housing, employment etc. I'm sure some of you will remember the thread that was going for awhile about "that fag bill" as Hessian so eloquently put it.
I was in no way saying that one group should gain priviliges over another, but the basic right not to be discriminated against would be a change for the better me thinks. Seems to me then by kyle's explanation, all conservatives should be for a national law like this. i mean it seems to be a change for the better. Then again I'm a liberal and only like change b/c its change.

 

[andwhat]

Hey that could work jetmonkey, we could bury all but one of them with pigs and that would stop everything. Or we could piss off the worlds largest adn fastest growing religion and they could all kill us and rape our mothers, daughters, sisters and wives and them dismember them and we could watch before they killed all but one of us. I definitely want to start down this path. sounds like a great idea. Jimmy, which way to the nearest pig farm?

 

[vraiblonde]

AndWhat, I think you missed the meaning in Jet's posts. Not that I would presume to read Jet's mind, but the meaning I got was:

Post 1: This is the Arab method of dealing with those they don't like - women who won't behave, US soldiers, non-Muslims, each other.

Post 2: Much like the nuking of Hiroshima, you actually save more lives (on both sides) with the threat, even if it kills a bunch of people in the process. If the penalty for criminal behavior is high enough, you'll see a rapid reduction in crime.

And Jimmy, I'm waiting.....

 

[vraiblonde]

Also, where is the statistic that Muslim is the world's fastest growing religion? You keep saying that but I'd like to read it somewhere for myself. And a real site, please, not some op-ed.

 

[andwhat]

Here you go Vrai:

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

I was wrong about biggest, I misread on the site. Its the 2nd largets after good old christianity. and I told you to stop doing that stuff in the corner. You're going to be upset when it falls off from too much use. Though its probably all the use you're getting out of it.

As for the fat, left handed blah blah blah, actually you can sue those people for discrimination. And since we don't need laws, we might as well repeal all the ones we have outlawing discrimination based on sex, creed, nationality etc. Oh look we're back to segregation again. Bye bye civil rights movement. Bye bye womens suffrage, we're back to old white men being the only one's allowed ot do anything in society again. Vrai that means you can't own property or vote. And anyone who's black out there, forget it. Go find a different water fountain b/c monkey boy says


Quote:Yeah, and there's no law protecting fat people, ugly people, left-handed people... Do we really need a law for every obscure minority group that exists?

and blacks are a minority so no more laws for you.

 

[Heretic]

I have been wondering why muslims think Jews control America, heck I only knew 2-3 Jews in my whole life.

 

[Hessian]

Star date 5435...Captain's Log.

Spock: "Captain, I have reviewed some ancient telecomunication postings and am curious about a strange ritual humans engage in..."
Capt. Kirk: "Fire away Spock.."
Spock:"It would appear that when one is overcome with a heightened sense of glee, others of your kind expect them to mutilate themselves in a corner...this is most curious."
Capt Kirk:"Spock...um...I can only assume it was a lesser intelligent life form...um, it couldn't possibly be human."
Spock:"If I may Captain, I have the transcript right here and..."
Capt Kirk: "Leave it alone Spock...we may never know."

Now...
Jet...thank you for those postings...I can only hope our congress and Exec staff are up to speed on this next generation of terrorists.

Jimmy/Andwhat...do you honestly believe we need to "understand them more?"
or "solve this diplomatically?"
and our Imperialism has been the source of these problems?
I can only see that if we follow any of these courses..it will result in us being overwhelmed by a wave of nonstop terrorism, economic collapse, and Islamic justice being applied liberally in the west.
Whether you recognize this or not...we are a blessed people:
*Longest unarmed border in the world
*Excellent life span & health care available
*Free travel for thousands of miles
*Cheapest gas in the free world
*Fantastic variety of products, foods, etc.
*Elections with open debate and no violence.

ALL OF THESE THINGS WILL COME CRASHING DOWN IF WE ATTEMPT TO "Understand, welcome, appreciate, accomodate---ISLAM."-They are dedicated to our destruction...nothing less.

 

[justhangn]

I tell ya, there seems to be some kind of sickness among the liberals where they think that they have to continually make more and more "laws" to 1. protect people from themselves and 2. make everyone act like the liberals feel they should.


Marxism comes to mind.

 

[jimmy]

Well Vrai and JamesD,

I don't know why you're so interested in this but I'll indulge you a bit.

Sorry it took so long but I don't post in the evenings and I was gone for the day from work. crap happens.

First off, let me state that I do NOT think Marxist Communism can or will ever truly exist on this earth. Even if I agree with some of the principles behind his thinking, in NO WAY am I advocating that they come to be. So, before you start in with "but how would that be done" and trying to make me defend the priciples of Marxism, I just thought I'd throw that out there. I'm not here to defend communism and if that's what you're looking for, sorry to dissapoint you.

The ideas that I agree with are the focus on the working class having more control over the means of production and the ideological shift away from "What's best for me" to "what's best for everyone".

The way workers are treated by large MNC's is really apalling. I read a statistic the other day that said that, through the year 2000, as companies were having MASSIVE layoffs and profit margins were decreasing, CEO salaries actually rose by well over 500%. This is just astounding to me and it really shows the separation of the working class from those who control the means of production.

Being a more liberal person, I can't help but be somewhat sympathetic to an ideal that puts the good of the many over the good of the few. Again, totally unrealistic to think people can ever lose greed to the extent they'd need to make it work, but never-the-less.

Lastly, I agree, (surprise surprise) on Marx's feelings about religion being completely seperate from the state (actually, Marx's eventual goal was NO state at all which is...interesting to say the least). Now, Marx wanted NO religion what-so-ever and that has been used by various communist leaders to suppress memebers of their societies. Of course I have a problem with this as I believe in the free practice of religion, but again, the seperation of Church and State to the fullest degree is obviously something I agree wholeheartedly with.

That's about it. Now, again, I am NOT here to defend communism so if that's what you were waiting for, well, you're just gonna have to keep on waiting... Now, Vrai, can you get back to the issues I raised earlier?

 

[jimmy]

Monkey,

Just for clarity here, that story you posted about the pigs blood bullets or whatever is pretty much unsubstantiated with no real proof to back it's veracity. www.snopes.com

Now,

"Jimmy/Andwhat...do you honestly believe we need to "understand them more?"
or "solve this diplomatically?"
and our Imperialism has been the source of these problems? "

Umm...yes. To a large extent, OUR involvement in those situtations and THEIR subsequent hatred of us has a LOT to do with OUR actions and how they are perceived over there. Are we responsible for ALL violence in the middle east??? No. But, if you'll look at the "Muslim Faith and the Seperation of Church and State" thread, TheWooze brings up a good point about governments that let religion interfere with politics are wrought with conflict and violence.

Now, there's no WAY that we're gonna convince these Arab states to give up religion in their government. So, yes, I DO think diplomacy and compromise on BOTH sides is the only way to win this situation...not just bombing the crap outta someone or pushing our own objectives.

I say again, Hessain, you feel that Muslims are "dedicated to our destruction" because you are a FUNDAMENTALIST looking for any excuse to point out some different set of beliefs that is a threat to Christianity and show it as the "road to hell". Thus, you will believe what ever small tid bits you hear about this supposed plan to do us all in and assume it's fact because you've already written Muslims off as heretics and devil worshipers (for who could deceive such a mass of people but the DEVIL!!!!)

Do you know that all this stuff you all are saying about Muslims duty to spread Islam by the sword is from the infamous "6th Pillar" of Islam supposedly given by Mohammed on his death bed?? Not ALL muslims believe that this is truly a "Pillar" of Islam, that is to be followed by the letter of the law.

Again, this is something that militant muslims prey upon to justify their actions, though it is NOT necessarily a belief supported by ALL muslims.

And Vrai---Nuking Hiroshima SAVED more lives than it would have cost???? You keep asking US for figures, show me that one. I'd be really interested to see if the numbers have actually been generated. Also, your comment about "if the penalty is harsh enough, you'll see a reduction in crime?" That has NEVER been proven; in fact, there has been NO change in the crime rate found when the death penalty is the punnishment vs. when a life sentence is the punnishment. Again, you can find studies that support both sides but if you aren't gonna let us throw things out there as fact, you can safely assume that we will do the same.

 

[James D]

Jimmy,

When you wrote:

Now, there's no WAY that we're gonna convince these Arab states to give up religion in their government. So, yes, I DO think diplomacy and compromise on BOTH sides is the only way to win this situation...not just bombing the crap outta someone or pushing our own objectives.

do you have any examples in history of when your 'diplomacy and compromise' idea has worked?

But, as you indicated earlier, you can only put out a helping hand so long, before it turns into a fist.

As for my earlier question, do you plan to answer?

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by jimmy
...And Vrai---Nuking Hiroshima SAVED more lives than it would have cost???? You keep asking US for figures, show me that one. I'd be really interested to see if the numbers have actually been generated. ...

Since it seems you're unfamiliar with history books, and likely wouldn't read one...I'll give you a shortcut!

Try http://www.trumanlibrary.org/

You know how to use the internet. But just in case, as I believe you wouldn't bother to use the link here's a few highlights for you available on the web.

UFB
________________________________

MacArthur's chief surgeon, Brig. Gen. Guy Denit, estimated that a 120-day campaign to invade and occupy only the island of Kyushu would result in 395,000 casualties”
________________________________

To the Japanese People,
America asks that you take immediate heed of what we say on this leaflet.
We are in possesion of the most destructive explosive ever devised by man. A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually the equivalent of in explosive powers to what two thousand of our giant B-29s can carry on a single mission. This awful fact is one for you to ponder and we solemnly assure you it is grimly accurate.
We have just begun to use this weapon against your homeland. If you still have any doubt, make inquiry as to what happened to Hiroshima when one atomic bomb fell on that city.
Before using this bomb to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, we ask that you now petition the emporer to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better and peace-loving Japan. You should take steps now to cease military resistance. Otherwise, we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war.
EVACUATE YOUR CITIES.

Attention Japanese people. EVACUATE YOUR CITIES.
Because your military leaders have rejected the thirteen part surrender declaration, two momentous events have occurred in the last few days.
The Soviet union, because of this rejection on the part of the military, has notified your Ambassador Sato that it has declared war on your nation. Thus, all powerful countries of the world are now at war with you.
Also, because of your leaders' refusal to accept the surrender declaration that would enable Jap[an to honorably end this useless war, we have employed our atomic bomb.
A single one of our newly developed atomic bombs is actually equivalent in explosive power to what two thousand of our giant B-29s could have carried on a single mission. Radio Tokyo has told you that with the first use of this weapon of total destruction, Hiroshima was virtually destroyed.
Before we use this bomb again and again to destroy every resource of the military by which they are prolonging this useless war, petition the emperor now to end the war. Our president has outlined for you the thirteen consequences of an honorable surrender. We urge that you accept these consequences and begin the work of building a new, better, and peace-loving Japan.
Act at once or we shall resolutely employ this bomb and all our other superior weapons to promptly and forcefully end the war.
EVACUATE YOUR CITIES.

____________________________________________________

Upon the death of President Roosevelt on April 12, 1945, over three years and 200,000 American lives later, Harry S. Truman, became the 33rd President of the United States. He was a Missourian known for his honesty and one of the most respected politicians of his time. The war in Europe was over and the Axis Powers of Italy and Germany had been defeated. All that remained between war and peace was the fanatical and kamikaze like resistance of the Japanese people and their army of over 2,500,000. In spite of the repeated warnings to surrender and that the alternative "was complete and utter destruction," Japan refused to surrender and continued to fight.
Truman had served as an Artillery Officer in France during World War I and, prior to becoming President, was not aware of the "Manhattan Project" and its Atom Bomb. His advisors estimated the war could be shortened by a year and that 1 million Allied casualties, 500,000 of them American lives, could be saved if the Atomic Bomb was used on Japan. Up to that point, in both the European and Pacific Theaters of War there had been approximately 291,000 American battle deaths. He decided that enough American blood had been spilled in trying to reestablish the peace that Japan had shattered. Truman said, "Let there be no mistake about it, I regarded the bomb as a military weapon and never had any doubt that it should be used."
__________________________________________

 

[jimmy]

James D,

Which one, Communism? Think I did that, didn't I?

 

[jimmy]

"Most studies were inconclusive, but the ones that were not found that crime briefly increased in the surrounding area following the publicized execution of a convict."


So, if anything, that would go even FURTHER against Vrai's theory that harsher punnishment deters crime?? Thanks for the help!

 

[jimmy]

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cj/cappun.htm

Just for a little clairty, Monkey. This study suggests it's very hard to determine the exact cause for rises in crime rates etc and certainly simply saying that harsher punnishments begat lower crime rates is to obtuse a statement. Monkey, as I said, you can find stats to support BOTH sides; I wasn't presenting MY side as fact either...so quick to just POUNCE, aren't you, without really reading what I've said??

 

[vraiblonde]

If for nothing else, one would think that the death penalty would lessen crime simply because there's one less criminal in the world. I fully admit I'm not a genius, but that's what makes sense to me.

Also, Jimmy, I'm going to run down crime rates in states with harsher penalties vs. more lenient states. I'm in the middle of payroll and billing so it'll be awhile...

 

[jimmy]

Monkey, what you find useless doesn't mean d*ck to me. I posted the url to show that there are two sides to that issue. My statement about crime rates not changing based on the intiution or repeal of the death penalty was clearly my way of looking at the situation....I thought we didn't have to put "I believe" in front of things anymore, monkey?

Anyway, this is all off topic and stupid. Back to the issue--Islam teaching hate and evil. You have yet to show that this is true. You have yet to address the 6th pillar arguement. You have yet to prove that the Muslims are any more violent based on their RELIGON ALONE (not geography or politics) than any other religion in history. Let's get back to the arguement.