Does Islam preach Hate?

[jimmy]

Hessian,

Unlike Andwhat, I'm not gonna try to get in a history-lesson-off with you (a history teacher and major) so I'll just assume that all you've said in that respect is accurate. BUT---

"Jimmy will always pour the deepest of contempt on Christianity and shout hypocrisy to anyone who comes near...what I say again and again is: Look at the original source of Islam and Christianity".

First of all, AGAIN with this contempt for Christianity crap. I've said it a million times but I've got it in me to say it a few more:

1. I don't HATE Christianity. I do not believe in it.
2. My contempt is for fundamentalist of ANY religion that would use religion as a basis for hatred. (ie, YOU)

I can't make it any plainer than that.

Look at the source of Islam and Christianity? You mean the Old Testament? Ok...so they both share the same source. So how does that prove your point that Muslims are evil.

I'll hazard a guess as to why it's so easy for you to think that Muslims are so bad. Because you are a fundamentalist and you feel that they worship a false prophet, ignored the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins, and will perish in hell along with all the other non-believers. You see it as contrary to your Christian ideals and truths and as another threat/trick of the devil luring more and more people away from Christianity and down a doomed path. Am I close?

Well, Hessian, I would say that you have the EXACT feelings about them that they have about YOU. I cry hypocracy when I see it, Hessian, and this certainly seems like it to me.

 

[jimmy]

http://www.muslim-lawyers.net/news/index.php3?aktion=show&number=78

An interesting article that I found. Now, before you all start squealing "it's by an arab, it's by an arab", let me get it out of the way. IT'S BY AN ARAB.

However, he actually says a lot of things that I think you all would agree with about the palestinian terrorists having NO justification for their attacks under true, traditional, Islamic law. (somewhat contrary to an opinion I'VE expressed here so that should make you all happy). So maybe you'll all give him a fair-ish shake.

He DOES go on to talk about why Islam, traditionally, is STRONGLY against terrorism and why, if people really look at the history of Islam, it is NOT a religion of hate and terror. Read it, please and tell me what you all think.

 

[vraiblonde]

Jimmy

I couldn't really care less about someone defending their religion. The fact of the matter is that most religions have had major warfare throughout history in the name of "God".

That the Arabs are STILL doing this should tell you something. The way they subjugate their women sould tell you something. The way they run their governments should tell you something. And all those "somethings" add up to the same thing: they are a backward people with archaic beliefs who have a problem with those of us who've decided to live in the present instead of the 12th century.

Well, Hessian, I would say that you have the EXACT feelings about them that they have about YOU.

And let me say that I don't see Hessian running around blowing people up for his "God". I don't see him strapping a bomb around his waist to become a martyr for the "cause".

 

[andwhat]

All right everyone, my mistake. My history was wrong and I apologize. you can all run not your corners and masterbate like monkeys now b/c you beat me at something. It truly most be the highlight of your life. If so, I feel bvery very sorry for you. I was mistaken in my history. Not sure where I got it, but I was wrong.

Jetmonkey, you want to go back to China, then lets go. china has been an established civilization for over 4,000 years for the most part without allowing any influence of the western world. They are now inline to become the next world superpower. They're views on human rights, democracy etc. are irrelevant. They are and ahve been a thriving civilization. The reason this came up is b/c of our discussion about the western world. When people think of the western world and speak of it in a context of modern issues, they are speakign primarily of the United States. The US has dominated global culture for the past 50 years. This is what people mean when they speak of the west. Deal with it. you can talk about Western Europe if you like, but ancient europe has no bearing on discussions about modern socio-political events.

Heretic, maybe the egyptians assumed the tapes were porn. Again this speaks of both sides lack of knowledge and understanding of each other. this I would say is a bad thing. And you want to talk about isunderstanding, most europeans think every american owns a gun. What you mean you're grandma doesn't own a .357, thats absolutely shocking.

Vrai, I will agree with you that humans fear that which they do not know and understand. When I was little, I was scared of the dark. By your reasoning I should then make sure that lights are on all the time, even in closets and the refirgerato when I close the door b/c I should get rid of that which frightens me. Be careful reducing humans to animals. For one you will invoke the wrath of Hessian (though I doubt he'll call you out on this one, but lord help us if jimmy or I tried to do it). Second by reducing humans to animals you have effectively taken away any morality. I can now do whatever I wish and we are in a state of nature and survival of the fittest. I will be over later today to kill everyone in your family (not really just making a point) b/c I might compete with one of you one day for a job and i must eliminate any competition. I will also now run off and rape as many women as possible (again not really) so that I can spread my seed and continue my gene line. Anytime you're willing to say that we should return to a state of nature, let me know and I'll be the first one climbing trees and running around naked trying to kill my dinner.

Hessian, Jimmy called you out and I think he hit the nail on the head. Good call on the history though. I'm impressed. I do enjoy someone with knowledge so this may be the only time I'll ever compliment you on a forum but again, impressive.

Finally Kyle, if we were fighting a conventional war, then maybe killing everyone would be the way to go. But not in this new age of terrorism. The more people you kill, the more you encite the fanatics elsewhere. We can defend against military bombers and amphibious invasions. how are you going to stop someone with a bomb in his shoes visiting the white house. The problem with just killing everyone is that you are now the new bully on the block. And eventually everyone runs into a bigger bully or a bunch of smaller bullies teamed up together and you're knocked off. Try some Political theory like Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan.

 

[andwhat]

Vrai, I do see people who believe many of the same things as Hessian bombing abortion clinics. (Go check out the Army of God website) I see Hessian speaking of how he wants to beath the heads in of two lesbians he worked with one summer. I do remember reading about the crusades, spanish inquisition and the holocaust. I've read how St. Paul said Christian women shouldn't be allowed to speak in church.

Yes they are living behind modern times, but so is the rest of the world. Bombing back to the stone age as kyle and others have suggested certainly isn't going to help them learn to live and survive in the 21st century. Oh wait, I forgot, they're different. they should all be killed and not be able to live in the 21st century.

 

[jimmy]

Andwhat,

I was gonna reply to Vrai's post with the abortionist and Army of God and Hessian's comments etc...but you took the words right outta my mouth....crap...maybe we ARE the same person! Bottom line: radicals will not hesitate to kill in the name of that which they believe in regardless of where their beliefs lie.

Regardless, pointing out the fact that some muslims are STILL engaged in religiously-based conflicts long after other religions (ie. Christianity) have moved away from that seems, at first like a good point. However, you have to take the ideas of globalization and politics into account.

The reality of globalization is that it has created a feeling in many areas (middle east included) that the Western world is trying to attack their way of life. And their religion is their way of life so the two are seen as one in the same to them.

And the political turmoil in that area is the reason the conflicts of a religious nature still exist. Imagine how much worse the Cold War would have been if the USSR were where Canada is???

The proximity in that area virtualy ensures that, with an absence of some form of diplomatic dialogue, violence will continue. So it's not really a fair comparison to say that Muslims should have stopped waging battles in the name of religion the way the US and Western Europe have; we are secular societies---they are not.

 

[vraiblonde]

Ya'll libs are so literal about everything. (And, yes, that's proper mid-western English )

Andwhat, your two posts are so filled with inaccuracy and fiction that I don't know where to begin. I'll just take it point by point:

They are now inline to become the next world superpower.

They've been saying that for 20 years - I'm still waiting. To be a world superpower, you have to have the citizens on your side. We can safely say that, in this day and age, no Communist nation will EVER be a superpower.

The US has dominated global culture for the past 50 years.

That's true. Guess why our young little nation has done this waaaaay ahead of more ancient and established countries? Let me rephrase: How did the US, which is only a little over 200 year old, come to be a world power over nations and cultures that are thousands of years old and have a greater number of people? Think about it and get back with me.

Be careful reducing humans to animals.

Why? That's what they are. Not mineral or vegetable...animal.

I see Hessian speaking of how he wants to beath the heads in of two lesbians he worked with one summer.

But he didn't DO it, did he? Feeling like doing something and actually doing it are two different things.

Bombing back to the stone age as kyle and others have suggested certainly isn't going to help them learn to live and survive in the 21st century.

Two things here: "bombing them back to the stone age" is just a saying. They're practically in the stone age now so I'm not sure how one would "bomb them back". The other thing you don't seem to understand is that they don't want to live in the 21st century! They want us to live in the stone age with them.

There's more, but that's enough for now.

 

[vraiblonde]

And their religion is their way of life so the two are seen as one in the same to them.

Thank you, Jimmy, for finally realizing that. That's what we've been trying to tell you all along.

 

[jimmy]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Thank you, Jimmy, for finally realizing that. That's what we've been trying to tell you all along.

Well, not exactly. You've been trying to say that their religion breeds hatred and that their way of life is hateful as well. That's NOT what I meant and you know it.

If they see us attacking their way of life, which they DO, then they will assume we are attacking the religion and envoke that 'self defense' clause that is being overused by some muslims (if you read that article I posted).

Still, that does nothing to prove your point about the religion ITSELF teaching or inspiring hate by it's very nature. I have been saying the entire time that it's a misinterpretation of religion that leads to all these conflicts. THAT point, you all have yet to refute.

 

[Kyle]

JimAndDanWhatEver...

Actually Jimmy Syria, Yemen and Saudi Arabia etc. are NOT helping us in the "War on Terror". They have paid some minor lip service and then undermined it at the first opportunity. i.e. Donations to suicide bombers, Syria aiding Al Queda operatives to settle in their country and slip into Israel, Yemen has consistently blocked in several intelligence-gathering operations in that region. So has Pakistan.

Diplomacy does not work for those that do not honor or respect it. How many thousands of times will you retry the same strategy before you try something else Jimmy? Liberal philosophy at work. If it didn't work throw more wasted resource at it and ignore the result. UFB.

More of this garbage of what we've "Forced upon Muslims"!

Exactly.....In your humble opinions, ( ), what is it that we have FORCED down the throat of the Middle East?

Did our military make them drink Coca-Cola at gunpoint?

Have we dropped a daisy-cutter on a Mosque and put up a McDonalds on the site?

Did someone force them to stop urinating and defecating in the streets and use a toilet?

We don't force them to go to schools....Improve their lives in any way.

If they want to continue to pick their a$$es and play in camel dung before dinner for the rest of eternity it won't matter to any but a few in this country. They can sit in squalor for the next millennium if that's what they want.

EXACATLY what act have we committed that forced anything on these fanatics?

Not more psychobabble or social-theory....FACTS!

America's history with these peoples can be traced back to the Barbary Pirates raiding our commerce ships. Perhaps a little farther. They were given a sound thrashing and it stopped. They haven’t' changed much in the following two hundred years.

We deal with them no differently that anyone else. If they want to trade with us on something, enact a treaty, whatever, in good faith, so be it. If not, then later Ahab!

No American is forcing them to sell oil to us or anyone else.
They have nothing else of value to trade however.
They either want to become a viable player on the globe or not. If they do they will have to cease behaving like savages.

Any commerce, diplomatic treaties, or settlements have been made through their "Existing Government"! If they have a problem with their government it's up to them to solve that themselves.

Again Jimmy, have you read the history of the Muslim religion? Of course not!
It started as conquest and continued in conquest for 1400 years. It does not spread out through noble ideas....It spread by "Convert or die". There are other religions that have had moments of this in their history, and it ended, but none other that was born to it and continued through blood for 1400 years. That is what makes it different!

Also this bizarre idea you have that fundementalist christians or Jews can be compared to the fanatics of the Muslim faith is laughable.
When was the last time Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Ernest Angley or Jimmy Swaggart ever strapped sent a suicide squad to attack another church? Or a school yard? I haven't heard of any Baptist Ministers attacking Mosques!

Your comparison is flawed!

 

[jimmy]

Kyle,

Your thinking is wrong. It's not about Cokes, and mustangs, and McDonalds. It's about Western influence and involvement in their affairs. What is an example of Western influence in the Middle East? Um...Israel?

Secondly, Islamic states are not the only ones using religion/ideology to justify the spread of their culture through force.

When did Manifest Destiny end? About one hundred measly years ago (1890)? When did American and Western Imperialism end? Hawaii? Guam? Korea? Vietnam? Is it even really over?

America is still trying to spread it's beliefs to the far corners of the globe and those not fortunate enough in our eyes to have been born into a capitolistic society. Look at the trade laws we set up, the World Bank, IMF etc. We are spreading our influence at all costs as well.

Just think about these kinds of things before you attack a religion like Islam for spreading it's ideals through force. Even if it IS true (which i still doubt as being the main goal of Islam) it's no differnent from the goals of the US, Christianity or anyother group with a set of beliefs that sets itself apart by supposing that it alone is right.

 

[vraiblonde]

Secondly, Islamic states are not the only ones using religion/ideology to justify the spread of their culture through force.

Who else is doing it?

When did Manifest Destiny end? About one hundred measly years ago (1890)? When did American and Western Imperialism end? Hawaii? Guam? Korea? Vietnam? Is it even really over?

Jimmy, I hope you're not insinuating that Korea and Vietnam were part of some Manifest Destiny. Both of those were civil wars that the US got involved in...under Democrat Presidents, I might add.

Look at the trade laws we set up, the World Bank, IMF etc.

What's wrong with that? Other nations have benefitted from those organizations significantly more than the US has.

 

[andwhat]

Alright Vrai we'll tkae this step by step just as you did.

First:No communist power will ever be a superpower in this day and age.

Umm cold war? Soviet Union, superpower. Type of governemnt, communism. Has the world changed that much in the past 10 years since the fall of the berlin wall, yea no. You do not need the consent of the pwople to be a world superpower, you need to have big guns, a big army and lots of international businesses and wealth clammoring to be a part of your domestic economy, selling things to your citizens. china has the second most populated country in the world. all those people want to buy things. Global corporations will clamor to them. And as our president George has readily shown us in his short time i office, Government is subject to the whims and desires of big business.

Number 2: The US has dominated global culture for the past 50 years, why?

B/c we got some very smart Scientists and built the biggest bomb anyone had ever seen. then we used it twice to blow up entire cities. Everyone wanted to be on our side b/c we were the new big bully on the block. Don't full yourself into thoinking it had anything to do with Democracy, the UK was the big bully during the period of Imperialism and the had a monarchy. Not even a dictatorship with the chance of a coup, a monarchy. The US also different have much of the difficulties of switching from an Agrarian to an industrial nation when the industrial revolution hit. We were young and not stuck in our ways.

Letter C: Be careful reducing humans to animals.

You didn't even address my point in this one that to reduce humans to animals you lose all morality. Reread that post and get back to me on this one.

Numero IV: I see Hessian speaking of how he wants to beat the heads in of lesbians, but he didn't.

You're right. Hessian exhibited an enormous amount of self control in not killing two womens by hiiting them in the head repeatedly with a shovel untill he caused their skulls to crack there by killing them b/c he didn't agree with them. Thats a very good point vrai. But if we could find someone like Hessian on this tiny little forum who thought about this and didn't do it, then it shouldn't be too hard to find someone who thinks similarly to him and would do (go look at the Matthew Shephard murder if you don't think so). Or go check out the Army of God group who bombs abortion clinics and everyone inside int eh name of God and the bible. Or hey that fun thing called the Spanish Inquisition.

And Finally cinq: They want us to live in the stone age with them.

Wow you really have me stumped on this one. I mean we want them to live in the future with us (well those of us who don't want to turn the place into one big glass floored parking lot) so is there any real difference than them wanting us to live in the "stone age" with them. Again we want them to be like us b/c we disagree with them. They want to kill or assimilate the infidels b/c they want us to be like them. Not seeing a real difference here.

So Vrai if you have more, please let me know what else you got.

 

[andwhat]

Alright Vrai, roud two. This time I'll do it out of order to make it more interesting.

Korea and Vietnam. Civil wars yes, that the US got involved in to protect the people from the evils of communism and to ensure that the american ideal of democracy continues to expand. Hmm sounds like imperialism to me.


World Bank. Wrong the US and other producing nations have benefited the most form those policies. When we give money to brazil to modernize, they clear the rain forests to make roads. We supply the asphalt. We buy their lumber at very cheap prices, we sell them the cars to drive on those roads and we sell the products that those people now driving on the roads buy.

 

[andwhat]

Monkey, a world in which Islam has whithered away into history. Thats kinda tough to do when you're the worlds fastest growing religion. (US News and World Reports)

 

[Kyle]

Jimmy I'm really curios....

Do you really believe this bull$#!t you spit out? Or is it for purposes of humor?

"Imperialism"? I hope you're kidding!
You really have a strange view of this nations policies and practices are! If we genuinely were "Imperialist" we would have wiped the entire middle east population, or many others, from the globe long ago and occupied it as a territory. Strange......We haven't!

I have to guess you've killed off far to many brain cells with drugs or exessive drinking.

So what in your view are we to do......Close all borders?....Ignore all calls from foreign countries? Tell the world "Sorry but we're not coming out or speaking to any of you any more"



Funny I don't recall "Trade with us or DIE" as being a policy of the U.S.A. at any point in history.

You are really a strange little boy! Did you attend Joseph Stalin Elementary? Followed by Carl Marx Jr. High? :silly:

Were you a Marxism major or something? If you really hate the capitalist system that much why aren't you living in that tropical paradise Cuba? Viet Nam? North Korea?

You certainly seem to have a deep hatred of this country.
I would also have to conclude that you don't work for a living since that would be supporting and benefitting from this horrible "Capitalist/Imperialist" system and it's war-mongering machine!

 

[andwhat]

Again money, thank you for this one.


Quote: Most of the madrasas in Pakistan teach the rigid version of Islam adopted by the Taliban. It is a brand of Islam that keeps women unschooled and largely unseen, that stones adulterers and bans music, television and the flying of kites or balloons.

More significant, the brand of Islam taught in Pakistan's madrasas has called for perpetual jihad, or holy war, against non-Muslims. It also gives students a narrow picture of America as a sinister center of evil that supports Israel; promotes sex, drugs and liquor; and, above all, is the enemy of Islam. The United States will need to battle for the minds of those who believe this way.


Did you all notice veryoen's favorite phrase in there, brand of Islam. Nowhere does this article talk about Islam as a whole being the problem. This particular brand of Islam which is taught in schools funded by extremist fundamentalists. Thats a Socio-economic problem with the region that allows this to happen, not the religion itself.

 

[Kyle]

Re: Fun stuff for the cabal

Originally posted by jetmonkey
...Rather than providing them with marketable skills, the various Imams, Ayatollahs, and Mullahs teach young students the ins and outs of hating America, hating science and industry and International Capitalism...

Sounds like this is where the "Cabal" were educated!

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by jetmonkey


*jetmonkey furiously masturbates in his corner*

You really should put "WhatNot" on the ignore list before you ignite that thing!

 

[vraiblonde]

AndWhat

Umm cold war? Soviet Union, superpower. Type of governemnt, communism.

And where are they now, hmmm? A better question is: why were we able to convince them to change instead of vice versa?

B/c we got some very smart Scientists and built the biggest bomb anyone had ever seen.

Why didn't they do it first? They've been around a lot longer than we have.

You didn't even address my point in this one that to reduce humans to animals you lose all morality.

Because I don't believe that, just because you are an animal, you lose all morality. And humans ARE animals - get over it or get a biology book. Xenophobia is an instinct left over from our caveman ancestors.

But if we could find someone like Hessian on this tiny little forum who thought about this and didn't do it, then it shouldn't be too hard to find someone who thinks similarly to him and would do (go look at the Matthew Shephard murder if you don't think so)

When you see the vast majority of Americans saying they want to beat in the heads of lesbians, then you can be alarmed. Until then, it's just common criminals and not a "way of life". Unlike fundamentalist Islamics.

Again we want them to be like us b/c we disagree with them. They want to kill or assimilate the infidels b/c they want us to be like them. Not seeing a real difference here.

Do you not live in America? We don't even require all Americans to be alike! What makes you think we care about Arabs? All we want is for them to quit blowing up our embassies, military barracks and World Trade Centers. And we want their oil, but frankly, their oil is the only thing that brings them income so it's mutual.

Civil wars yes, that the US got involved in to protect the people from the evils of communism and to ensure that the american ideal of democracy continues to expand.

Actually, we went over there because the South Koreans were our UN buddies so we went over there to help them out against the Chinese and North Koreans. You need to go back and get a history lesson.

Wrong the US and other producing nations have benefited the most form those policies.

Care to back that up with any actual facts?