Electric Car News

[DaSDGuy]

1. So the lower fuel cost is only applicable for %90 of the times you fill up or more for most folks. And they will. But gas price fluctate as well.

2. 5-6 years? I think that's a bit pessimistic. Early Model S's had issues with packs, the newer ones should last quite a bit longer. Think closer to 10 or 12, if not longer. And pack prices drop as scale occurs.

3. So what are we calling a vehicle lifespan, for the sake of argument? Years, or miles? Using the Honda as the yardstick, looking for ones over 200K on autotrader within a 200 mile radius from here, we only find 165 of all kinds. Once you get old enough, and then used packs from crashed cars get to be an options, as do repaired packs from third party vendors. Nobody buys a motor from GM for a 2020 vehicle. So, if the batteries last 200-300K, are you really gonna ding them after that?

Autotrader - page unavailable

1. Not as much as creating a new power source for all that electricity.
2. Very optomistic on your part with no facts to back up your extended life guess. The 5-6 year amount is based on history, unlike your guesses.
3. Lifespans of ICE cars can easily exceed 20 years. Again, historical facts to back it up. Nothing to back up extended life EVs

 

[glhs837]

1. Not as much as creating a new power source for all that electricity.
2. Very optomistic on your part with no facts to back up your extended life guess. The 5-6 year amount is based on history, unlike your guesses.
3. Lifespans of ICE cars can easily exceed 20 years. Again, historical facts to back it up. Nothing to back up extended life EVs

1. The grid needs to grow anyway, adding more capacity less expensive then drilling new oil, at least if we were friken smart about it and got some low cost nukes cranking.
2. I'm basing it on the demonstrated life of older Model S and adding a fudge factor for tech generally improving from one generation to the next. And this linked article. The "facts" you base your number on I suspect comes from the Nissan Leaf, which was both early tech and lacked any sort of battery temp management system which is crucial to both lifespan and degradation reduction.
3. Measuring in years is not really the best way to do this, though, is it? Wifes 2020 Z4 had only 2,400 miles on it when we bought it last spring. Similar models with 40,000 miles cost a good bit less. Miles equals wear. And 20 years at 13k a year is 260K miles, a measure both ICE and EVs should meet if properly cared for. The linked article talks about some Model S's and others owned by Tesloop who put some serious miles all done with Supercharging, and that data looks good.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/

 

[glhs837]

1. Like I said it's only a matter of time before charging costs will be adjusted for EVs with some kid of tax from the Federal, State and Local governments. This is America boss, they are NOT going to allow EVs to get away without some kind of road tax, now you can deny it all you want!

2. 5 or 6 years yes I think that is being reasonable, most people don't replace their vehicles because they are worn out, they replace them because they are tired of them. With an ICE vehicle after 5 or 6 years you still get about the same MPG as you did when the vehicle was new. With EVs you should lose about 25% to 30% reduction in range and that is if you took the time to charge them correctly and stay away for the fast charges and only charge to about 90% which of course lowers the driving range again.

3. Vehicle lifespan is a tough one.
For someone who is a gearhead the whole vehicle could be trashed but still able to be driven because they are capable of keeping it on the road so miles are not the same for them. For some people mileage means everything, for others its how old the vehicle is, for others its how much keeping it on the road is going to cost, for others it I've had this thing forever the ashtrays are full I want a new ride.

4. Maybe we are thinking about this wrong. If say you took an ICE and an EV the ICE has a 10 gallon fuel tank and get 100 miles to the tank full the EV gets 100 miles to the full charge but loses 5% in range per year or 30% after 6 years after 10 years you would lose 50% in range. Now after 10 years you install a new 5 gallon fuel tank in the ICE which reflects a 50% loss of range. Now they are equal in range, do you think that people would be in line to buy either of these vehicles in the used car market? I certainly don't, therefor EVs have a distinct disadvantage when you are in the used car market and pricing should reflect this.

A lot of this will be covered by reading my response to SD.

1. A lot of places have already implemented a road tax like thing for EVs. Some red states are even making them punishing compared to gas taxes you might pay for an ICE vehicle. I do agree, EVs should pay their fair share to maintain the roadways. How to farly do that is an issue. Nobody want a mileage tax. But how each does you get them to pay equal to what use they put to the roads? Still going to have to go pretty hard to erase the advantage that powering an EV has.

2. See the article I attached to my response to SD. Best data so far looks like 25% to 30% is crazy high for degradation. More in the 15%-20% range I think. Those high numbers, like SDs lifespan numbers, come from the Nissan Leaf experience I think.

Tesloop, a former shuttle service company in California, was one of the first to run a 2016 Model X 90D past 300,000 miles back in 2018. That electric SUV mostly relied on DC fast charging, which can degrade batteries quicker, and yet the company reported just 12.6 percent battery degradation with most of that occurring in the first nine months of service.
The Maiden Voyage blog has been sharing one owner's experience with a 2018 Tesla Model 3 Long Range RWD that reached the 200,000 miles mark with 13.7 percent degradation. One MotorTrend reader, Cory, shared with us that his 2018 Model 3 Long Range had crossed the 100,000-mile mark in late June 2022 with around 7 percent capacity loss.

3. Yep, people hold em or sell them, and other people buy them. But few make it past 300K, can we agree on that? So, if say 30%-40% of these get to 300K without needing a battery, would you call that equivalent to ICE?

4. This argument is based on degradation numbers that so far have not surfaced for modern EVs. See above. And keep in mind, Tesloop abused the crap out of those batteries.

 

[Clem72]

My son is still trying to sell his Model 3 in an incredibly down market that is Norway right now. Large part of the population is dumping their EVs..

Tesla Extends Lead in Norway, EVs take 82% of Market Share

• Tesla in 2023 was top seller for third year running
• Raised market share to 20% from 12%
• No impact on Tesla sales seen from conflict with Nordic unions
• Norway aims to be first to phase out petrol, diesel car sales
• No impact on Tesla sales seen from conflict with Nordic unions

Oh look, something or someone was certainly full of sh(it). The EV market in Norway is anything but down.

 

[Gilligan]

Tesla Extends Lead in Norway, EVs take 82% of Market Share


Oh look, something or someone was certainly full of sh(it). The EV market in Norway is anything but down.

You clueless clown. That says nothing about the market for used EVs in Norway..and that market has tanked. The phenomenal spike in what Norwegians had to pay for electricity that occurred recently had a lot to do with that. but you go be you...a total moron....whereas I'll rely on the fact that my family is there and I've lived and worked there for over 35 years. ;-)

And wait til you see what happens when the tax-free benefit expires. Didja know that it's nearly 100% on many gasoline vehicles?

 

[Clem72]

You clueless clown. That says nothing about the market for used EVs in Norway..and that market has tanked. The phenomenal spike in what Norwegians had to pay for electricity that occurred recently had a lot to do with that. but you go be you...a total moron....whereas I'll rely on the fact that my family is there and I've lived and worked there for over 35 years. ;-)

And wait til you see what happens when the tax-free benefit expires. Didja know that it's nearly 100% on many gasoline vehicles?

You blamed the tanking EV market on the electricity cost, and yet they sold more EVs in Norway last year than ever before. New EVs use the same electricity that used EVs use. You claimed the entire EV market was down, not just the used market.

And you have shown zero evidence that your son knows anything about the EV market in Norway, certainly not that he knows more than those who are writing stories about how strong the market is there, other than your claims that he can't sell his used car. Maybe he's asking too much, maybe people in Norway prefer new vehicles (like the Japanese prefer not to live in a "used" house), maybe the car wasn't kept up well and resembles the vehicles you often post to this website, maybe it smells bad.

You call someone else clueless when you base your entire opinion off of one anecdotal piece of evidence despite factual information to the contrary.

Your the idiot, and given how afraid you are of EVs blowing up i'm surprised you let your son drive one.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

3. Measuring in years is not really the best way to do this, though, is it? Wifes 2020 Z4 had only 2,400 miles on it when we bought it last spring. Similar models with 40,000 miles cost a good bit less. Miles equals wear. And 20 years at 13k a year is 260K miles, a measure both ICE and EVs should meet if properly cared for. The linked article talks about some Model S's and others owned by Tesloop who put some serious miles all done with Supercharging, and that data looks good.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/

Depends how much you drive. If you drive a lot I think they make sense. If you drive 10k miles/year I don't think they do. My truck is 17 years old and I expect to have it for a long time, only put about 6-8k a year on it.

For hobby use of lithium batteries they are fine being used, if you let them sit that's when they seem to degrade.

 

[glhs837]

Depends how much you drive. If you drive a lot I think they make sense. If you drive 10k miles/year I don't think they do. My truck is 17 years old and I expect to have it for a long time, only put about 6-8k a year on it.

For hobby use of lithium batteries they are fine being used, if you let them sit that's when they seem to degrade.

Keep in mind though these vehicles have a very complex battery management system on them. And of course the fuel savings pile up the more you drive, but even at 10k a year it's not a small amount depending upon the mileage of what you normally drive. And it's never really a comparison between an old vehicle and a new one.

You know every person has to run their own total cost of ownership numbers for themselves. According to the stats, the average person drives about 14000 miles a year

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Keep in mind though these vehicles have a very complex battery management system on them. And of course the fuel savings pile up the more you drive, but even at 10k a year it's not a small amount depending upon the mileage of what you normally drive. And it's never really a comparison between an old vehicle and a new one.

You know every person has to run their own total cost of ownership numbers for themselves. According to the stats, the average person drives about 14000 miles a year

Maybe I'm a bit cautious in this regard, during the early Covid months where I didnt have many places to drive to I made sure to drive my car around some so the ethanol containing fuel wouldn't go bad, then I never put much in it when I did fuel up.

Truthfully no more than I drive buying the hybrid wouldn't have made economic sense over the car I had. I had two reasons I needed a different vehicle though, current car was killing my back if I sat in it for more than an hour and I needed something easier to haul a wheel chair in. I chose the hybrid because after driving it everything about how it drove was better than the regular ICE version, smooth power delivery, more power, quieter. Since there are no gears due to the planetary power combiner (they call it an eCVT) it was also a more reliable transmission. The increased MPG was just the icing on the cake.

 

[glhs837]

Maybe I'm a bit cautious in this regard, during the early Covid months where I didnt have many places to drive to I made sure to drive my car around some so the ethanol containing fuel wouldn't go bad, then I never put much in it when I did fuel up.

Truthfully no more than I drive buying the hybrid wouldn't have made economic sense over the car I had. I had two reasons I needed a different vehicle though, current car was killing my back if I sat in it for more than an hour and I needed something easier to haul a wheel chair in. I chose the hybrid because after driving it everything about how it drove was better than the regular ICE version, smooth power delivery, more power, quieter. Since there are no gears due to the planetary power combiner (they call it an eCVT) it was also a more reliable transmission. The increased MPG was just the icing on the cake.

Back around 2008, started working with a guy who drove a Prius. My SRT-8 had been rear ended and needed the rear fascia replaced. He drove mine while I drove his. I was quite impressed with the Prius, honestly. Smooth, seamless, and tightly integrated. And while it didnt seem fast, it certainly didn't feel slow.

I do understand the draw of hybrids. And I'll always have something ICE around. But I also love the idea of a vehicle that has 10x fewer moving parts in the drivetrain to worry about. That I normally never need to take to the gas station unless I want a snack.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Back around 2008, started working with a guy who drove a Prius. My SRT-8 had been rear ended and needed the rear fascia replaced. He drove mine while I drove his. I was quite impressed with the Prius, honestly. Smooth, seamless, and tightly integrated. And while it didnt seem fast, it certainly didn't feel slow.

I do understand the draw of hybrids. And I'll always have something ICE around. But I also love the idea of a vehicle that has 10x fewer moving parts in the drivetrain to worry about. That I normally never need to take to the gas station unless I want a snack.

I actually designed and help build a hybrid for a student competition back in the 90s and it definitely wasn't a smooth driving experience. It was a series, meaning the ICE only charged the battery and turned a generator to power the electric motor. It had sooo many dings because the controller wasn't well tuned and would go from stuck wouldn't even roll down a steep hill to a sudden lurch forward. We did manage excellent mpg on the EPA test and a PZEV emissions score, not bad for a bunch of students.

I wouldn't buy one until over 20 years later. I have to say Toyotas use of the planetary gear system is absolute genius and so good several other automakers license it.

 

[Kinnakeet]

I know about three or four people who drive EVs. Not a one of them is doing it for the planet. They are doing it for the benefits. And studies can be done all sorts of ways, I might look that one up later.

Benefits how so

 

[glhs837]

Benefits how so

TCO.

 

[spr1975wshs]

I actually designed and help build a hybrid for a student competition back in the 90s

I have plans for a hybrid that The Mother Earth News Magazine published in 1979.
They converted an Opel GT using a lawn mower engine, alternator, deep cycle batteries and 36 V DC jet engine starter motor.

 

[Kyle]

I have plans for a hybrid that The Mother Earth News Magazine published in 1979.
They converted an Opel GT using a lawn mower engine, alternator, deep cycle batteries and 36 V DC jet engine starter motor.

Based on photos, I'd bet Gilligan could throw that together in an afternoon.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Ugh who would do this with the equivalent of a Honda Ridgeline. I really like the Rivan's aesthetics.

I have plans for a hybrid that The Mother Earth News Magazine published in 1979.
They converted an Opel GT using a lawn mower engine, alternator, deep cycle batteries and 36 V DC jet engine starter motor.

That sounds exactly like what GM was selling about 2010, it used an alternator motor on a small 36V system. It increased the MPG by a whopping 2 mpg.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

The worst thing that could possibly happen to EVs is is if they be deemed consumables. There needs to be certified battery repair centers for insurance to possibly get on board.

Mechanics are repairing broken EV batteries for a fraction of the cost: 'There's a lot of batteries in the recycle bin that could be repaired'

The complicated chemistry happening inside electric vehicle batteries makes them difficult to repair, according to experts interviewed by Grist.

www.thecooldown.com

 

[OccamsRazor]

The worst thing that could possibly happen to EVs is is if they be deemed consumables. There needs to be certified battery repair centers for insurance to possibly get on board.

I could definitely see the auto industry trying to transform themselves into a "consumable" based operation like TVs and appliances. Somehow, I don't think it will catch on with the majority though...

 

[Kyle]

Are Tesla more expensive to insure?


How Much Does Tesla Car Insurance Cost? Full-coverage car insurance for 2022 Tesla vehicles costs an average of $3,007 per year or $251 each month. This makes Tesla auto insurance premiums approximately 50% pricier than for the average vehicle with a full-coverage policy.Dec 25, 2023
https://www.marketwatch.com/guides/... Insurance Cost?,with a full-coverage policy.

Tesla Insurance: Cost and Best Cheap Companies (2023) - MarketWatch​

https://www.marketwatch.com/guides/... Insurance Cost?,with a full-coverage policy.
https://www.marketwatch.com/guides/... Insurance Cost?,with a full-coverage policy.
That's three times what I pay for full coverage on my loaded F150.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

For two vehicles full coverage I pay about $1800/year.