Xaquin44
New Member
not exactly, but that works.
I was typing out an explanation, but it'd be easier to just go back and read the last few pages hehe
Genesis 22
- Thread starter Dougstermd
- Start date
not exactly, but that works.
I was typing out an explanation, but it'd be easier to just go back and read the last few pages hehe
Ah, so the Blessed Virgin Mary was the springboard for this? I think I will go back and look.
Well, of course Mary had free will, and she could certainly have said, "No". I'd have to go check the Scripture verses, but God told Abraham what was going to happen to him, and Abe could've/should have done as Mary ("I am the handmaid...let it be done") because he took things into his own hands (or bed) and had Ishamael with Hagar. There is further tumult and animosity to this day as a result (that may be a stretch, but I've been told that Muslim nations are descended from Ishmael)
One could argue that Jonah was told what he was to do vs. being asked, too. Jonah opted not to do as the Lord had requested of him, at least at the start, while eventually submitting.
Did Peter, Paul or Judas have free will, or were they all predestined? I think God has shown us through Scripture that we do have free will, yet He sort of has a "contingency plan" should His will be resisted by man. Becoming man in Jesus Christ to redeem the world was the contingency for Adam's disobedience. Did God know what would happen? Sure, but Divine Foreknowledge does not equal pre-destination. After all, as a parent, do I prevent every scrape and failure for my children's choices when they do not do as I have taught? That is the point, I think, of always being able to make a U-turn in our lives. God can bring good out of all things.
I'll go back and read now, since I really have no idea if my thoughts are even in line with the question at hand.
Well, of course Mary had free will, and she could certainly have said, "No". I'd have to go check the Scripture verses, but God told Abraham what was going to happen to him, and Abe could've/should have done as Mary ("I am the handmaid...let it be done") because he took things into his own hands (or bed) and had Ishamael with Hagar. There is further tumult and animosity to this day as a result (that may be a stretch, but I've been told that Muslim nations are descended from Ishmael)
One could argue that Jonah was told what he was to do vs. being asked, too. Jonah opted not to do as the Lord had requested of him, at least at the start, while eventually submitting.
Did Peter, Paul or Judas have free will, or were they all predestined? I think God has shown us through Scripture that we do have free will, yet He sort of has a "contingency plan" should His will be resisted by man. Becoming man in Jesus Christ to redeem the world was the contingency for Adam's disobedience. Did God know what would happen? Sure, but Divine Foreknowledge does not equal pre-destination. After all, as a parent, do I prevent every scrape and failure for my children's choices when they do not do as I have taught? That is the point, I think, of always being able to make a U-turn in our lives. God can bring good out of all things.
I'll go back and read now, since I really have no idea if my thoughts are even in line with the question at hand.
Well, Abraham's history with God was pretty dramatic. God spoke quite clearly to Abraham re: having a son in his old age, and it came to pass as God had said. So, I'm not sure if I would have questioned the God who also had brought plagues upon Pharoah, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah (and spared Abraham's family), among other things. It was pretty clear that God was God, and all-powerful at that. Abraham witnessed much of God's power, as well as His love and blessings to the obedient.
Mary, as most faithful Jews of the time, would have been pretty darn familiar with Scripture, and the Scripture does tell us that the Messiah would suffer and die for the sins of the world. So, to be willing to take on that role is darn similar to my way of thinking as what Abraham was asked to do.
Also, to be found pregnant while stilll unmarried was punishable by stoning during Mary's time. Yet, she trusted at that critical time that God would provide for her safety in one way or another, as He willed. Kind of like Jesus in Gethsemane.
Starman3000m
New Member
When you allow God to be "GOD" then you will be able to comprehend that He will do and accomplish things that go beyond our own human comprehension.
Of course, Mary could have said no in which case God would have chosen an alternate. HOWEVER, Mary found favor with God because He knew her heart and knew that she would be willing and obedient to accept the opportunity of being the mother of the Saviour of mankind.
In other words, God chose the best candidate for the job and, being all-knowing, He knew that Mary would accept, albeit she was totally surprised and puzzled at first about how she would be able to bare a child when she had not "known" any man.
A "human example" is this: The richest corporation is on an international hunt for the best candidate to introduce the next product that will revolutionize the world. This product will one day bring world peace, end evil and allow users to live eternally.
The candidate must be completely honest and be an individual whose moral and ethical standards are above reproach.
After a computer check of all qualified individuals one name comes up as to who is the best candidate. That candidate is Nucklesack.
A company representative is then sent to meet Nucklesack and delivers the following message:
Mr. Nucklesack, you have been selected to engineer the next revolutionary invention into this world. Our company has conducted a world-wide search and found that you are the best candidate to accomplish this. What you will produce will bring peace into the lives of individuals and give them eternal life. What's more, this will be given Free to anyone who asks. This will revolutionize the world and people will call you highly favored for bringing this into existence.
Nucklesack replies: "But, I don't have engineering background nor do I have a degree."
Company representative replies: "Not to worry, Nucklesack, you have been found to be the most trustworthy individual in the world. You don't need any engineering knowledge nor an engineering degree. Our company will develop everything and all you need to do is be the one to introduce it to the public. You will be the link that makes this happen in the world."
Will Nucklesack say "No" ?
Last edited:
Gen 22, "God said, "Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land...you shall offer him up as a sacrifice"
Doesn't sound like a question to me. Both Abraham and Mary were free to do their own will.
Just as with A and E, God said, "you shall not eat". This seems as definitive a statement as God's word to either Abraham or Mary, yet we see that indeed there was human choice in the equation.
:shrug:
PsyOps
Pixelated
Okay, now you have to be purposely spinning what I am saying. I didn't say it was impossible to abandon God. I said it was impossible to go to heaven if you have abandoned God.
I know there is the old argument that says once you are saved you are always saved and if you abandon God thereafter it's just a temporary backslide. Well, abandoning God would mean you have lost all faith, completely; which means you never had it to begin with; so therefore never saved to begin with.
Bottom line, you cannot test God to prove Him wrong. You will lose.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Q1: Are you telling me if God spoke to you and said you were going to give birth to the Son of God, you would say "naw God, but thanks. I don't like that you are predermining my life for me"?
Q2: If you knew God was playing puppet and every move we make was predetermined, how would this change how you live your life?
Q3: Because knows everything before it happen, does this mean he is predetermining everything, or is it that he just knows?
Just like earthly parents of a child, we know them better than they know themselves. God knows us so much better than we know ourselves, and that is why He knows our choices.
I have a kid with a sweet tooth. If I leave a plate of just-baked cookies on the counter, I know darn well he's going to sneak one (just an example, not my own situation), and then he's going to have the pay the price for "stealing" the cookie.
I know who the likely culprit is when the kids have an altercation, just because I know each personality so well that I didn't have to be there.
God the Father is sssoooo much more. But, God also knows what has brought each of us to each of our decisions. As a Catholic, I can say that a person who walks away from Jesus Christ because of the actions of a homosexual or pedophile priest, is likely to get a lot more understanding from God at judgement time than, for instance, a person who wants to have an extra-marital affair.
I have a kid with a sweet tooth. If I leave a plate of just-baked cookies on the counter, I know darn well he's going to sneak one (just an example, not my own situation), and then he's going to have the pay the price for "stealing" the cookie.
I know who the likely culprit is when the kids have an altercation, just because I know each personality so well that I didn't have to be there.
God the Father is sssoooo much more. But, God also knows what has brought each of us to each of our decisions. As a Catholic, I can say that a person who walks away from Jesus Christ because of the actions of a homosexual or pedophile priest, is likely to get a lot more understanding from God at judgement time than, for instance, a person who wants to have an extra-marital affair.
Xaquin44
New Member
then in that case we have no free will.
If he knows everything and is never wrong then we can't waver from our course because then god would be wrong.
Starman3000m
New Member
Correct! Are you surprised that I agree here?
What you state actually is true in the following sense:
God offers Xaquin and Xaquin's son/family the opportunity to have eternal life - not because of the good that they did in life but because they accepted God's Plan of Salvation through Christ.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
Xaquin hears/reads the message and ponders whether to believe and accept God's Plan of Salvation through Christ or believe there is another way:
Jesus said , I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)
Xaquin (like all skeptics) cannot understand and argues the point about God's way of doing things:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
Xaquin's position (and those of all mankind) are described in Matthew Chapter 13:
BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Matthew 13:1-58;
Xaquin makes the final decision on whether to accept or not accept.
God knows the decision we will all make. It was not pre-decided by God but decided by a personal response of whether one accepts God's Plan of Salvation or whether one wants to remain apart from God and live as he/she wants to live:
John, Chapter 3, verses:
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Salvation is not acquired by individual efforts to "be good" but through the Divine Grace of God. It's a done deal but needs to be accepted:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2: 8-9)
To receive God's Plan of Salvation, one must invite the Saviour into his/her life.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Revelation 3:20)
God has already placed the choice before us. God even suggests which choice to make - BUT each person must decide whether to accept God's Plan or try going a different route:
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)
...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)
Last edited:
Xaquin44
New Member
incorrect.
if god knows all and can't be wrong, that decision was made by god before I even had the chance to think it over.
that's what you're not getting here.
If god can't be wrong and already knows every outcome then we're on a predestined course.
explain how we aren't if you disagree.
God knowing what your decisions will be is not the same as making the decisions for you.
Simple as that.
T
toppick08
Guest
True
Starman3000m
New Member
Exactly!
Xaquin44
New Member
no it is the same.
If you know it and can't be wrong then it is predestined.
I've proven this numerous times with several examples.
but just for fun, I'll do it again.
God knows that you, Libby, are going to heaven. Since he is all knowing, he has known this since the dawn of time. Could you prove him wrong?
Simply by knowing the outcome of every single life/situation/whatever, and NEVER being wrong, he is, by default, made our lives nothing but a show to live through.
Xaquin44
New Member
only if you don't think about it.
Xaquin44
New Member
See above.
Xaquin,
There will probably be no convincing you, so I'll give this just a couple more shots.
The most basic truth that Christians accept is that God made us out of His love, desiring that we would know Him and love Him. However, in His infinite wisdom He knew that love, by definition is not pre-programmed into the beloved, it must freely given.
To put this on a human level, if you are a dad then think back to the newborn baby in your life. You spend years giving them every good thing from food to rules for living rightly in the world. You give all that you have and know freely to that child because you love him and you want him to be happy. You know that hard work and self-discipline are the keys to being truly happy as an adult, right? Otherwise he may end up in jail, or with a lousy job, or addicted to drugs.
Someday, when that child is grown he thanks you for the love and guidance you provided while he was young and foolish, he can now see that you have always known best.
Would you have loved him, or would he have shown love for you if you had locked him away for 25 years to keep him out of trouble? I mean, really, then you could have been sure of his safety, right?? But, it is not love given to your child, nor is love what is received from your son.
I've got more to add, but I've gotta go for now...
There will probably be no convincing you, so I'll give this just a couple more shots.
The most basic truth that Christians accept is that God made us out of His love, desiring that we would know Him and love Him. However, in His infinite wisdom He knew that love, by definition is not pre-programmed into the beloved, it must freely given.
To put this on a human level, if you are a dad then think back to the newborn baby in your life. You spend years giving them every good thing from food to rules for living rightly in the world. You give all that you have and know freely to that child because you love him and you want him to be happy. You know that hard work and self-discipline are the keys to being truly happy as an adult, right? Otherwise he may end up in jail, or with a lousy job, or addicted to drugs.
Someday, when that child is grown he thanks you for the love and guidance you provided while he was young and foolish, he can now see that you have always known best.
Would you have loved him, or would he have shown love for you if you had locked him away for 25 years to keep him out of trouble? I mean, really, then you could have been sure of his safety, right?? But, it is not love given to your child, nor is love what is received from your son.
I've got more to add, but I've gotta go for now...
You assert one of two things. If we have free will, then God cannot be omniscient, and therefore He is not God. Or, if we are pre-destined, then we do not have free will, which makes God a liar, and therefore not God.
You make the mistake of assuming in your thesis that free will and divine foreknowledge cannot exist together.
"For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent." St. Augustine of Hippo
God does not will or create a situation that makes Him not God.
You make the mistake of assuming in your thesis that free will and divine foreknowledge cannot exist together.
"For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent." St. Augustine of Hippo
God does not will or create a situation that makes Him not God.