Govt Work at Home May Be Over

[SamSpade]

Mechanicsburg, where emails and voice mails go to die if they don't happen to get to the correct person. They're like the opposite of NSWC Crane - or a lot of places, actually.

When I come in on Thursdays - since I am off Wednesday - I will get a taste of just HOW MUCH EMAIL I get in a day. Even without the rules redirecting some mail to different folders, I easily get a hundred or more (again, not counting all of the ones I end somewhere else, because they involve stuff that while important, aren't dire (like schedules of server maintenance and such).

So I might get a remark like - didn't you see my email? - my first thought is crap, do you know how much I get in a day? Then I notice they sent it AFTER I leave on Tuesday - very late - and easily never seen by me while I slog through Wednesday's mail.

I confess to being impressed by people who read ALL of their mail. I'll ask a friend a question like, when do they open this floor of the garage or when do they do this or that upgrade - and he'll say Dude! it was in so and so's email.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Oh, and my favorite was when you'd call somebody you needed to talk to, and they were one of the SMEs, but they were out-of-pocket, and their vox mail (or email) said "Call so-and-so, they're my backup," so you'd call so-and-so, and their vox mail or email said "I'm out of pocket, call/email the first person."

Let me guess, structures?

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Thank God I retired at the end of September.

Just a few more years

 

[Clem72]

Funny story related to discussions in this thread.. Names changed to protect the innocent.

Had to go onto PAX for a meeting a few weeks ago. While I was there and after the meeting (it ended around 1:30PM), I noticed the female assistant for the meeting lead headed out the door. Purse in hand, jacket on, etc.
Me: "Oh, is that Marcy headed out the door? Is she off to another meeting?"
John: "No, she has a kid in middle school and she has to pick them up."
Me: "Is there an emergency. Are they OK?"
John: "Oh yeah. They are fine. She picks them up every day."
Me: "She leaves at 1:30 every day?"
John: "Yep!"
Me: "Is she part time?"
John: "Nope. She is full time."

At this point, I didn't even continue the discussion. I know for a fact this person arrives at the office at 8:30AM every day. Now, you do the math.

Have a feeling a lot of this goes on in or around the base.

At least in my day, pretty much all admins were contractors except for the direct competency office admins. So if it was a division director's admin, probably government. If it was a PMA/PMW/program office/project office/etc admin it was a contractor.

Contractors would leave early all the time, supposedly to perform whatever duties they needed to perform at their workplace. Government folks aren't supposed to directly influence the contractors working schedule (even if that contractor works for them) or place of performance, they would need to inform the contract COR who would contact the company and it would work it's way down to the individual contractor.

 

[BOP]

Let me guess, structures?

It varied, although most of the offenders seemed to be in the IPT building.

 

[BOP]

When I come in on Thursdays - since I am off Wednesday - I will get a taste of just HOW MUCH EMAIL I get in a day. Even without the rules redirecting some mail to different folders, I easily get a hundred or more (again, not counting all of the ones I end somewhere else, because they involve stuff that while important, aren't dire (like schedules of server maintenance and such).

So I might get a remark like - didn't you see my email? - my first thought is crap, do you know how much I get in a day? Then I notice they sent it AFTER I leave on Tuesday - very late - and easily never seen by me while I slog through Wednesday's mail.

I confess to being impressed by people who read ALL of their mail. I'll ask a friend a question like, when do they open this floor of the garage or when do they do this or that upgrade - and he'll say Dude! it was in so and so's email.

I had one boss, a 14, who was probably one of, if not the best boss I ever had, bar none.

One day she asks, in a meeting no less "Didn't you read my email?"

"No ma'am."

She was at a loss, while people were struggling not to snicker.

"Well, why not?"

"We've always been told to clearly indicate up front, below the subject line, what action needs to be taken."

She looked at me; I looked at her, and it was a little uncomfortable (for her) until I let her off the hook when I said this:

"Ma'am, you said to read through the email chain, which, by the way, printed out to 7 pages. So I did. I didn't see any other action for me, so I ignored it."

She was like "Oh." There really wasn't anything she could say, and we had a good chuckle over it.

 

[BOP]

At least in my day, pretty much all admins were contractors except for the direct competency office admins. So if it was a division director's admin, probably government. If it was a PMA/PMW/program office/project office/etc admin it was a contractor.

Contractors would leave early all the time, supposedly to perform whatever duties they needed to perform at their workplace. Government folks aren't supposed to directly influence the contractors working schedule (even if that contractor works for them) or place of performance, they would need to inform the contract COR who would contact the company and it would work it's way down to the individual contractor.

At the same time, I know, as a former long-time COR/TOCOR that all that is spelled out in the contract. Place of work, hours, holidays, and so on. I'm trying to remember, but I think during my time in the PMAs at Pax, admin was a 1.0 function, and primarily government. There were contractors who also did admin, but they answer to a Gov't worker.

At Pt. Mugu and China Lake, and even in Philly (ASO), you were more likely to see contractor admins.

At least that's how I remember it.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

It varied, although most of the offenders seemed to be in the IPT building.

For the most part I only had issues with two departments.

 

[22AcaciaAve]

I think lost in all of this telework talk is the fact that the douge brothers have also proposed having government workers in the building from 8-6. Effectively ending flex schedules. I would think that screws a lot more people than asking them to come into the office. Some people may work the 6-2:30 shift and pick their kids up from school, others may take their kids to school and work a later 9-5:30 shift. Eliminating flex time really disrupts people's lives.

But the douge brothers don't really care about people's lives, they want them to quit and that will probably work. The part they don't understand is that they lose just as many good people as they do dead wood by doing things like that. Not to mention that most employees appreciate work places that make allowances to make their lives easier and are more inclined to work harder to make their employer a success. Do the hard work and get rid of the dead wood, get rid of the people who abuse the system, but keep the people who actually are contributors. That's what makes successful operations. Elon Musk does not care about that. He has said he expects his Tesla employees to work 80+ hours per week. He's on record as praising Chinese workers who slept in his factories to be at work longer while criticizing American workers as not wanting to work at all. He now wants to stamp that imprint on federal government workers. It will cut the federal work force, but it is doubtful that it will make it more efficient which is really supposed to be the mission of DOGE.

 

[glhs837]

I think lost in all of this telework talk is the fact that the douge brothers have also proposed having government workers in the building from 8-6. Effectively ending flex schedules. I would think that screws a lot more people than asking them to come into the office. Some people may work the 6-2:30 shift and pick their kids up from school, others may take their kids to school and work a later 9-5:30 shift. Eliminating flex time really disrupts people's lives.

But the douge brothers don't really care about people's lives, they want them to quit and that will probably work. The part they don't understand is that they lose just as many good people as they do dead wood by doing things like that. Not to mention that most employees appreciate work places that make allowances to make their lives easier and are more inclined to work harder to make their employer a success. Do the hard work and get rid of the dead wood, get rid of the people who abuse the system, but keep the people who actually are contributors. That's what makes successful operations. Elon Musk does not care about that. He has said he expects his Tesla employees to work 80+ hours per week. He's on record as praising Chinese workers who slept in his factories to be at work longer while criticizing American workers as not wanting to work at all. He now wants to stamp that imprint on federal government workers. It will cut the federal work force, but it is doubtful that it will make it more efficient which is really supposed to be the mission of DOGE.

Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps these sorts of pronouncements are sort of like Trumps huge initial tariff warnings. Meant as verbal shots across the bow to get everyone talking about how terrible it will be.

And also perhaps like the illegal immigrant deportations, they plan to focus on the egregious offenders. Bob who logs nine hours of work but seems to post about all the things he's got done during the day. You could cut a lot of deadwood that way. I think the Chinese workers you refer to were doing that during the pandemic lockouts. They could stay in barracks between shifts and still keep making money or they could go home and make nothing. Choice, its a wonderful thing. When did he say he wants everybody working 80 a week?

At the same time, I know, as a former long-time COR/TOCOR that all that is spelled out in the contract. Place of work, hours, holidays, and so on. I'm trying to remember, but I think during my time in the PMAs at Pax, admin was a 1.0 function, and primarily government. There were contractors who also did admin, but they answer to a Gov't worker.

At Pt. Mugu and China Lake, and even in Philly (ASO), you were more likely to see contractor admins.

At least that's how I remember it.

I know they sent us home without changing the contract. And I'm pretty sure when they brought me back in two days a week, core hours of 9-3, that wasnt a contract mod. No idea how they are handling it contractually, but it seems like my immediate govt bosses have free reign to set my individual schedule. Which is cool as my job has always had hours that are not the norm. All I know is my govt customer is happy and so is the company.

 

[SamSpade]

There’s at least one other wrinkle in all of this - some of it is we hired people DURING the hiatus, some of them really good people - and they weren’t “sent home” but hired where they were so they could apply their talents remotely.

We have such a guy in our group and he has among other things, rewritten a lot of our code so that it is brilliantly simplified - a complete greenhorn could maintain it. If compelled to “return” - we’ll lose him.

Other situations - I mean, I GET why people think what kind of entitled lazy effer can’t drive into PAX after a 15 minute drive. Sure. But the people I know don’t have that luxury. Frankly I’d love to have that “problem”. I already know a handful for which coming in each day means a daily drive to the Pentagon.

In my immediate group - one from Wlliamsburg, another from Atlanta! - and others. Losing those two would be very very difficult to replace.

I do think the smarter path is to pry out the deadwood instead of using a scythe.

 

[22AcaciaAve]

Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps these sorts of pronouncements are sort of like Trumps huge initial tariff warnings. Meant as verbal shots across the bow to get everyone talking about how terrible it will be.

And also perhaps like the illegal immigrant deportations, they plan to focus on the egregious offenders. Bob who logs nine hours of work but seems to post about all the things he's got done during the day. You could cut a lot of deadwood that way. I think the Chinese workers you refer to were doing that during the pandemic lockouts. They could stay in barracks between shifts and still keep making money or they could go home and make nothing. Choice, its a wonderful thing. When did he say he wants everybody working 80 a week?



I know they sent us home without changing the contract. And I'm pretty sure when they brought me back in two days a week, core hours of 9-3, that wasnt a contract mod. No idea how they are handling it contractually, but it seems like my immediate govt bosses have free reign to set my individual schedule. Which is cool as my job has always had hours that are not the norm. All I know is my govt customer is happy and so is the company.

Yes, I agree. I think a lot of this is scare tactics. They are floating things that will not be appealing to government workers hoping some will either retire or seek other employment. I just think that's the wrong way to do it. I wouldn't want my best people going, I want to keep them. Do it the right way. But they don't even really have any power. They are an advisory group. Republican senator Thom Tillis called them out without saying their names. He called them opportunists. That fits. Musk was all in on the Obama side and now he is all in on the Trump side. I call them something different. They are political whores.

One of my biggest issues is the potential conflict of interest that these people bring. If you want Musk and Ramaswamy to head up his initiative, fine. Let's kill all of the subsidy's and contracts going to their companies, or have them remove themselves from those companies. I don't want someone who stands to profit from a business venture that has government contracts calling the shots for trimming government spending. It's too easy to cut spending to possible competitors for these peoples businesses. Put up or shut up. If you want to have a say in the Trump administration, end your association with your business that might profit from your recommendations.

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Id love to see the unintended consequences of setting my schedule to start at 0800.

 

[Kinnakeet]

Get back to work, you slackers. We're not paying you to sit on your ass and goof around.

Not all are slackers

 

[Kinnakeet]

I think lost in all of this telework talk is the fact that the douge brothers have also proposed having government workers in the building from 8-6. Effectively ending flex schedules. I would think that screws a lot more people than asking them to come into the office. Some people may work the 6-2:30 shift and pick their kids up from school, others may take their kids to school and work a later 9-5:30 shift. Eliminating flex time really disrupts people's lives.

But the douge brothers don't really care about people's lives, they want them to quit and that will probably work. The part they don't understand is that they lose just as many good people as they do dead wood by doing things like that. Not to mention that most employees appreciate work places that make allowances to make their lives easier and are more inclined to work harder to make their employer a success. Do the hard work and get rid of the dead wood, get rid of the people who abuse the system, but keep the people who actually are contributors. That's what makes successful operations. Elon Musk does not care about that. He has said he expects his Tesla employees to work 80+ hours per week. He's on record as praising Chinese workers who slept in his factories to be at work longer while criticizing American workers as not wanting to work at all. He now wants to stamp that imprint on federal government workers. It will cut the federal work force, but it is doubtful that it will make it more efficient which is really supposed to be the mission of DOGE.

Why would they want them to quit?

 

[SamSpade]

Why would they want them to quit?

Stated reason several times - to pare down the number of government employees and save money.

I think this is taking a page from other companies - and applying it where it's just not going to work. The profile of your typical Amazon or Google employee does not resemble the same of federal employees. You might as well have Thanos snap his fingers.

 

[SamSpade]

Id love to see the unintended consequences of setting my schedule to start at 0800.

Well, traffic around DC if every federal worker is starting at the same time.

 

[glhs837]

Yes, I agree. I think a lot of this is scare tactics. They are floating things that will not be appealing to government workers hoping some will either retire or seek other employment. I just think that's the wrong way to do it. I wouldn't want my best people going, I want to keep them. Do it the right way. But they don't even really have any power. They are an advisory group. Republican senator Thom Tillis called them out without saying their names. He called them opportunists. That fits. Musk was all in on the Obama side and now he is all in on the Trump side. I call them something different. They are political whores.

One of my biggest issues is the potential conflict of interest that these people bring. If you want Musk and Ramaswamy to head up his initiative, fine. Let's kill all of the subsidy's and contracts going to their companies, or have them remove themselves from those companies. I don't want someone who stands to profit from a business venture that has government contracts calling the shots for trimming government spending. It's too easy to cut spending to possible competitors for these peoples businesses. Put up or shut up. If you want to have a say in the Trump administration, end your association with your business that might profit from your recommendations.

See, I don't think its intended to scare anyone into quitting, but rather to make folks look around. And they don't have power. Other than the power of the spotlight. Musk was a liberal. Once he bought twitter the long knives came out. Makes sense to not stay aboard a ship where they are coming after you 24/7.

Does Ramasamy's companies have any interaction with the govt? There's the FDA interaction with his biotech stuff. and he owns chunks of Microsoft and Lockheed. This is where that advisory bit comes in. Congress still has the oversight. If they think Ramasamy is gunning for BS regulations that hurt everyone, they can take action. If it seems targeted to help his company, then dont.

We've already talked about Musk on this topic. Tesla products receives the same tax credits every other maker who qualifies for them does. What others like Ford and GM have gotten that Tesla didn't was billions in EV start up costs from Uncle Sugar. Heck. Rivian who have been in production for three years now is on tap to get a six billion dollar loan to build a second factory even though they have not demonstrated that they can build a vehicle at a profit.

So here's the thing. Take the SLS for instance. By every singe metric one can apply, they whole thing has been a boondoggle. Silly crazy schedule slips, costs that have ballooned way out of control. There's no objective observer that thinks the continuation of that program does anything but shovel additional billions into the furnace. Is DOGE advocating for the end of that program a conflict of interest? Or just smart.

Take Boeings Starliner. They got double the money SpaceX did to deliver the exact same capability. To date, with ten years of effort they accomplished one half on one mission. While SpaceX has completed nine missions and has been contracted to complete five more. How long should we keep paying Boeing for a capsule that doesn't work?

Are either of the above examples of Musk trying to cut the competition? When by all accounts these "competitors" are not competing, just sucking up billions of dollars that can buy real capability. Including fostering smaller startups with fresh ideas like Stoke and others.

Is pointing out the idiocy of the FCCs actions towards Starlink self interest? How many billions of rural broadband money has already been wasted already? Does it serve the public interest to feed the maw of the telecom lobby when you can have these rural folks connected for a few hundred bucks each in literally minutes?

Were Musk a guy who had been appointed to run these companies by board after they were successful, removing him might make sense. However, they only reason these companies are in the position they are in is because he runs them and makes the calls. He made them. Are you worried he'll take his billions and waste it on yachts and such?

 

[PeoplesElbow]

Well, traffic around DC if every federal worker is starting at the same time.

I was thinking the inability to support a flight schedule.

 

[SamSpade]

I was thinking the inability to support a flight schedule.

I know that most federal workplaces that have parking lots and garages depend on the staggered entry of employees to avoid daily messes - it's typical when storms or power outages that trigger dismissals USUALLY create massive traffic jams as EVERYONE leaves at the same time - instead of a staggered schedule.