how long until the catholic religion dies?

[GusChiggins]

Well, I didn't leave you red karma but I am antagonistic toward your viewpoint.

For the record, I am an atheist. Not an agnostic, as in I don't know if there's a God or not, but an atheist (a: meaning without; theism: meaning a belief). But I am not hostile to religion and think it's part of our cultural heritage, and you are ignorant of religion to your own peril.

I would like you to explain to me why you feel the need to denigrate a religious belief that has no bearing on your life or well-being.

how am i ignorant of religion? i love sweeping assumptions based on 20 words. i think i just explained how religion has and continues to have a tremendous impact on my life. i have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in mass/sunday school/etc. hell i was even an altar boy for a few years.

catholicism has had a profound impact on my life. much of it positive - many of the morals/values that most religions teach are very positive, important, and excellent for imparting upon our children and others. the problem is that that is not the focus of the catholic church- IMO they would rather stop one abortion than teach one child to treat others how they want to be treated. the vatican is a political body- and i firmly despise religion mixing with politics. i know complete separation is impossible- but i think we could do better than we do now. the catholic church spends more time telling us how NOT to lead our lives than how to lead better lives.

the pope (before he was pope, if i remember correctly) says he would refuse communion to a politician who happens to be pro-choice... would Jesus ever refuse communion to ANYONE if they sincerely desired it?? the catholic church has lost its way.

and yes religions are a part of our heritage. i don't see where i have denied this, or taken a stance that all religions should be abolished. i think you and others are putting words into my mouth. however, it's important to realize that the heritage of religion is as negative as it is positive.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I see new people here so I'll clarify my position. I NEVER "bash" the other denominations. When I say something here to present the truth, it may look like hate speech but it isn't! Jesus did the same thing! I NEVER wanted to spend all my time pointing out the flaws of ANY denomination but it happens more often than not. I was raised in Catholic schools & church for 17 years. Never an altar boy but I grew to hate the things I was made to do there. Because of that, at 17 I left and, for 17 years, I purposely did whatever I wanted, to spite their teachings. I got saved in 1989 and promised God not to hate them any longer and to point people to the truth and that's what I do today. People hate to be told that they are wrong. That's why they say it's hate speech. I do not hate Catholics! I do not hate anyone! What I hate is a persons refusal to believe the truth! That's the only thing that will keep you out of Heaven and that's why I do what I do here. I can't stop others from saying what they do but I think part of the problem here is the way things are presented. When some folks post teaching errors about a group, they are posted in a derogatory way as opposed to just stating the facts without the animosity. Some people find it hard NOT to hate what the Catholic church has taught & done in the past. Others, like myself, do not. Remember, if whatever ANYONE teaches goes against the Bible, it's wrong. Some see this as hate speech, narrow mindedness or bigotry but wise people see it as caring! If I didn't care, I wouldn't spend my time doing this for so long. READ YOUR BIBLE ALL YOU CHURCH GOING PEOPLE, AND BELIEVE IT! Don't blindly believe whatever you're taught. You have no other "standard of truth" if you don't. Then you too can see (if you truly want to) when someone is doing/teaching the right thing or not.

 

[vraiblonde]

i love sweeping assumptions based on 20 words.

Me too. We have common ground

the catholic church spends more time telling us how NOT to lead our lives than how to lead better lives.

Do you not think that is one and the same?

Jesus ever refuse communion to ANYONE if they sincerely desired it??

If he got a load of modern day politicians, he would probably not only refuse them communion, but he would run screaming down the street tearing at his own eyeballs.

it's important to realize that the heritage of religion is as negative as it is positive.

Explain, please. Religion has a notorious past, but "past" and "heritage" are two different things. The heritage of religion can be modern day Christianity, where you are taught to love your brother, or it can be Islamofascism, where you are taught to kill the infidel.

Which are you talking about?

 

[vraiblonde]

Gus, do you think Jesus would approve of abortion?

 

[Bronwyn]

If you're not Catholic, what do you care?

Why would someone "new" here pick a fight like this?


MPD

 

[Starman3000m]

Emphasis added:

I see new people here so I'll clarify my position. I NEVER "bash" the other denominations. When I say something here to present the truth, it may look like hate speech but it isn't! Jesus did the same thing! I NEVER wanted to spend all my time pointing out the flaws of ANY denomination but it happens more often than not. I was raised in Catholic schools & church for 17 years. Never an altar boy but I grew to hate the things I was made to do there. Because of that, at 17 I left and, for 17 years, I purposely did whatever I wanted, to spite their teachings. I got saved in 1989 and promised God not to hate them any longer and to point people to the truth and that's what I do today. People hate to be told that they are wrong. That's why they say it's hate speech. I do not hate Catholics! I do not hate anyone! What I hate is a persons refusal to believe the truth! That's the only thing that will keep you out of Heaven and that's why I do what I do here. I can't stop others from saying what they do but I think part of the problem here is the way things are presented. When some folks post teaching errors about a group, they are posted in a derogatory way as opposed to just stating the facts without the animosity. Some people find it hard NOT to hate what the Catholic church has taught & done in the past. Others, like myself, do not. Remember, if whatever ANYONE teaches goes against the Bible, it's wrong. Some see this as hate speech, narrow mindedness or bigotry but wise people see it as caring! If I didn't care, I wouldn't spend my time doing this for so long. READ YOUR BIBLE ALL YOU CHURCH GOING PEOPLE, AND BELIEVE IT! Don't blindly believe whatever you're taught. You have no other "standard of truth" if you don't. Then you too can see (if you truly want to) when someone is doing/teaching the right thing or not.

Totally Agree!

Remember that Jesus chastised the religious leaders of His day and not the ordinary people. The religious leaders who should have known better were the ones causing people to stray from the Truth by imposing man-made obligations and expectations that were self-serving to them and not to God. Those religious leaders incited people to turn against Jesus because His Teachings were not what they wanted to hear.

Truth is Not Hate Speech but many are offended when truthful words are spoken. As you stated "if whatever ANYONE teaches goes against the Bible, it's wrong."

Keep up the Good Work Italian Scallion and count yourself faithful when you challenge religous error by helping to steer people to the truth of God's Word - even if feelings get hurt along the way.

Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
(Proverbs 27:6)

 

[Starman3000m]

Read about the American "Bible Wars" around the end of the 19th century (1870ish i think).

Its amazing whats gone on HERE with regards of one Denomination of Christians verses another Denomination of Christians.

That's because There Is Only One Truth and people of all varying denominations cannot agree on the One Truth. That is why such inter-faith summits will not really work and why the denominational disagreements between ALL religions will continue until Y'shua HaMashiach (Jesus of Nazareth) returns to establish God's Truth and Peace on Earth.

Until then, this world will continue in chaos.

 

[Radiant1]

At that time, however, the Catholic church members were not allowed to own or read a Bible because "only the priest" could interpret the "word of God." Dad kept and read the Bible anyway.

Are you sure about that? Church members were not disallowed a bible; however, private interpretations have been and are discouraged. Why? Because when that occurs you get over 22,000 Protestant denominations who claim to be lead by the Holy Spirit but yet believe different things. As you said, our God is not one of confusion.

Long story short, the local priest incited some of the members to turn against my parents for converting to "Protestant" Evangelical Christianity. Their home was pelted with rocks and my parents were scorned and verbally insulted by those whom they had once thought were God-fearing friends. The result is that my parents, with three children at that time, were forced to move out of the community.

I'm very sorry. That should have never happened. However, to take the actions of one priest, community, or even culture and condemn a whole faith is unreasonable at best. I don't condemn Baptists because the baptist preacher down south was raping his daughters. :shrug: The Body of Christ is made of wheat and chaffe and all will be willowed out in the end.

Another account that my mom shared is that when she was a young girl attending a celebration at the Catholic church, the local priest had tried to get her off to the side to be alone with him. She perceived that he was up to no good and made a bee-line back to where her parents were. Many other stories were told that are similar to the goings-on of present day priests in the Catholic church and the incidents mom related dated back to the 1930s!

Ones perception is subjective. Your mother may have been spot on, or she may not have been, it's hard to say. As for present-day priestly abuses in the West, they have indeed occurred and in some cases covered up and it's a travesty. I can get into a fuller discussion about why this has occurred, what can be done about it, and what not but this but it will have to wait for another day.

Granted, the Catholic church is by far not the only denomination where such incidents occur but it is hard pressed for any church to maintain credibility when the leadership in charge of "shepherding" turns out to be wolves in sheep's clothing.

Sorry if this offended anyone but I felt this needed to be shared here.

You're right, wether it be US Catholic bishops or television evangelical pastors.

No offense taken by me.

 

[Radiant1]

Hmmm... I am curious now; What did God tell you that is different?

Matthew 16:16-19. He tells me to follow the Apostolic lineage that Jesus Himself established.

 

[Radiant1]

Wow! I really love the Protestant vs. Catholic smackdown. It's almost as uplifting as the all-too-typical Christian vs. everyone else smackdown. This however is different. This may just be the most inappropriate post I have ever read here on the religious forum.

"Pssst...By-the-way, just for your own good...I heard that priests are abusive child molesters...but I mean that in love."

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

 

[Starman3000m]

Matthew 16:16-19. He tells me to follow the Apostolic lineage that Jesus Himself established.

It's Not the Apostolic lineage that one trusts in but the lineage of faith in Whom Christ is:

Here is what the scripture you referenced reads:

Matthew 16:16-17 (New International Version)

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

Simon was not the only one called blessed by Jesus in the Holy Bible. Jesus called the ordinary people that were poor and humble as blessed.

What Jesus was commending Simon on was the Truth that was revealed to him and that was that Jesus Is The Christ, the Son of The Living God.

That's exactly what happened to me, as mentioned in my testimony, where I personally heard the audible words of God confirm that Jesus was The Son of God. I don't really think that means I should be a pope but it does show that God Reveals the Truth about Jesus as this was a time when I did not really believe that I needed to deal with Jesus as my Mediator. As a result, my Atheist wife, Diane, was also confronted with Truth about God's Existence and we both became born-again believers in Christ.

The ROCK indicates the Foundational Truth that Jesus Is The Son of God. Upon that Rock Jesus has built His Church.

 

[MMDad]

that being said i'd love to see you all purporting that the catholic church is growing in the united states, because i find that VERY hard to believe

http://cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm

Catholic population in the US:
1965 45.6m
1975 48.7m
1985 52.3m
1995 57.4m
2000 59.9m
2005 64.8m

 

[Radiant1]

the karma i got from this thread is hilarious, and just goes to further prove how intolerant catholics are of thinking outside the box.

As a practice, I only give green karma. It's not just Catholics either btw judging from the three nasty red karma I received.

that being said i'd love to see you all purporting that the catholic church is growing in the united states, because i find that VERY hard to believe when i come from baltimore, a VERY old archdiocese, and they can barely get 1 priest per church nowadays, whereas 10 years ago we had 3 full time priests including the pastor. many churches have cut masses. and maryland is, i would wager, one of the most heavily catholic states in the country.

if catholicism is growing worldwide, it is through missionaries in africa and central/south america, it is certainly not in the united states. when is the last time the catholic church had good publicity?

I agree with you. Catholicism in the States is not growing; however, it is in other places in the world. Priestly shortage here in the states forces priests from other nations to come and work, mostly those from India.

ways the catholic church is behind the times:

If I live in a culture of death then I am thankful that the Catholic Church is "behind the times".

-birth control: natural family planning doesnt work. if you want every catholic family to have 9 kids and not be able to send any of them to college and lower each one's standard of living, then by all means, natural family plan away. give me a condom, and give the girl the pill. same goes for morning after pills which PREVENT CONCEPTION not abort a fertilized egg.

Some forms of birth control are debatable. Most do not prevent conception but create an inhospitable uterine lining to accept an already fertilized egg.

-divorce = no communion. i could be wrong on this one, but i believe if you get divorced, and do not have an anullment, you technically arent supposed to be allowed to take communion? that makes sense. i'm sure Jesus would have turned these people away from receiving him.

You are wrong on this one. A civilly divorced person can still partake in the sacraments. It's when a divorced person gets remarried without an annulment that the sacraments are denied becuase then the person is openly in a state of adultery and obviously remaining married without a previous annulment is not going to get one absolution in the confessional.

-priests cant get married: this one never made sense to me. almost everything in christianity is founding on judaism, where rabbis can get married.

Priestly celibacy is a discipline not a doctrine. It's done for both practical and spiritual reasons. It can and perhaps will be changed in the future.

-only male priests: i'm no biblical scholar but i don't recall it saying only males can be priests. i get the fact that they are supposed to be married to God, but seriously, the above point and this one, are we really surprised about the scandals that arise?

The Church refuses women to the priesthood simply because Jesus had no women apostles. None of the 12 were women. The Church didn't design it that way, Jesus did. :shrug:

-womens rights: women are the driving religious force in many families, and in general, the catholic church treats women as second rate citizens. Hell, for the first 1900 years or so of the religion, women could not even go on the altar. at least now they can be eucharistic ministers. but why shouldn't they be deacons, or priests? i can't blame any woman for feeling out of touch with the catholic church. it's ruled by men, all decisions are made by men and men alone, and only men are allowed to lead congregations. but hey, we can give out bread and sing. hooray!!!

I'm a Catholic woman and have never felt as a second rate citizen in the Church. My gifts of time and talent have always been greatly appreciated. I don't need the priesthood to feel a part of the community. Mary Magdalene didn't need it either and she was the first evangelist, go figure. Btw, not all decisions are made by men. There are plenty of women who are on parish committees making decisions. Trust me.

-those are some of my issues with the church. i understand where it's coming from but at this point it is out of touch and behind the times. and there is precedent for modernizing the church.... vatican conventions and such. the church should change with the times to most serve and reach its people.

You know what? The very fact that the Catholic Church sticks to its beliefs and does not change with the times is one minor reason why I became Catholic (yes, I'm a convert :gasp. The Word of God doesn't change with the times why should God's Church? :shrug:

Btw, thank you for explaining things. It makes for better dialogue.

 

[Radiant1]

Boy this is fun, and this time i'm not even involved

 

[Radiant1]

It's Not the Apostolic lineage that one trusts in but the lineage of faith in Whom Christ is:

The ROCK indicates the Foundational Truth that Jesus Is The Son of God. Upon that Rock Jesus has built His Church.

Oh boy, I suppose we could get into the Greek and Latin and all of that and why you are interpretating that passage incorrectly but I really don't have time for that unfortunately. Suffice it to say, the Church has from the very beginning interpreted that passage differently than those who protested from 16th century onwards. As for myself, I would much rather adhere to apostolic interpretations that I know came down from Peter who handed it to his successor by the laying on of hands, who in turn did the same to his successor, and so on and so forth.

 

[Bavarian]

The "Morning After Pill" is an abortifactant, it prevents the fertilized egg to implant.
Mexico has a official government prohibtion on the Catholic Church since their revolution, making it fertile ground for Satan and his minions to lead people away from the truth.
St. Peter was made the first Pope by Jesus when he said "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her. Any other wording is from an invalid translation of the Bible. On Easter Sunday, St. Peter was the first to enter the empty tomb, even though St. John got there first.
No one knows if they are saved until they stand before God in personal judgement after death.

I will continue to pray for you heretics that you will return to the Church before it is too late.

 

[Radiant1]

http://cara.georgetown.edu/bulletin/index.htm

Catholic population in the US:
1965 45.6m
1975 48.7m
1985 52.3m
1995 57.4m
2000 59.9m
2005 64.8m

I suspect those numbers are due to Hispanic immigration and not conversions or simple birthrate.

 

[Radiant1]

I will continue to pray for you heretics that you will return to the Church before it is too late.

Dude, please tell me you're not SSPX.

 

[Starman3000m]

Oh boy, I suppose we could get into the Greek and Latin and all of that and why you are interpretating that passage incorrectly but I really don't have time for that unfortunately. Suffice it to say, the Church has from the very beginning interpreted that passage differently than those who protested from 16th century onwards. As for myself, I would much rather adhere to apostolic interpretations that I know came down from Peter who handed it to his successor by the laying on of hands, who in turn did the same to his successor, and so on and so forth.

Please take time to read the Biblical scripture and context of the whole chapter of Matthew 16. You will also find in the Bible that Jesus chided Peter shortly afterward for not believing that Jesus would have to die for the sins of mankind. Simon Peter was also the apostle who drew his sword and cut off the ear of one of the centurions who came to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemene. Jesus told him to put away the sword.

The Rock is the Foundational Truth alone that Jesus Is The Christ, The Son of The Living God. That is the Rock that the Truth of God is built upon and all who trust in Jesus Christ and believe He is the Son of God are part of His Church. Not a "specific denomination" but personal Faith in The Saviour, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

 

[Radiant1]

Was her name Sophie? (sorry bad movie reference)

Har, har, har!