Is it possible for gays to go to heaven?

[hotcoffee]

I don't think anyone was saying that at all; at least not in this thread. But I will tell you I have had people in this forum tell me I am not saved because I don’t attend certain churches or attend church at all. I have seen others post that certain people are not saved because they attend a certain church. So it’s been posted quite often that some people seem to think they know who is saved and who isn’t. They can say and believe what they want; I refuse to.

I have two sisters who are in the Catholic Church and I'm a Protestant. I did worry about both of them. Then I rode from Lusby to Virginia Beach with one of my sisters and we talked about our faith. I found that my sister shares a strong faith. Jesus doesn't require you to go to a particular church. Jesus doesn't require you to practice your religion in a particular way. Jesus requires that you believe. IMHO He requires your faith in Him.

The original question was, can a gay person continue to practice their lifestyle and claim they are saved? Can a practicing gay person truly go to heaven? If they’ve truly committed themselves to Christ as their savior is it possible they would still be living a gay lifestyle? Or can we assume that they are really not saved?

I haven't given my opinion until now. In my opinion.... If I want to know if this man is saved, all I have to do is ask him.

IMHO.... the reason it is so difficult for a gay person [or any sinner for that matter] to truly have faith is the darkness of the sin they are engaged in.

Let me put it this way. I'm sure almost everyone has told a lie. [Thou shalt not bear false witness]. Johnny and Timmy are playing baseball in the back yard and Johnny hits a ball through the neighbor's window. Johnny doesn't want to get in trouble so he blames Timmy. Johnny has just told a lie on Timmy, and in Tommy's heart he feels that little dark chill as soon as he commits the sin.

Now let's go to another degree of darkness. Johnny is older now and he gets hold of some porn. He goes into a room by himself, locks the door and watches the porn. As he locks the door and gets ready to watch the porn he gets that little dark chill but it's a little bigger now, a little darker now. He knows this is not something you do in Sunday School. To make matters worse, that Porn will etch itself in his memory and it will pop up from time to time to remind him of that dark chill. It kind of reminds us of acid trips and flash backs.

I'm not saying there is any progression of sin here.... I'm not saying that if someone breaks a window with a baseball they will progress to gay.... please don't get me wrong.... I'm trying to show degrees of darkness...

When Johnny gets a little older he finds himself in an intimate moment with Sid. A chemical attraction has brought him to this moment and he knows he is about to step over a threshold that the something inside him knows as taboo. Johnny has been told all his life that he shouldn't have sex outside of marriage, let alone this. Imagine the degree of darkness that exists in that moment.

Jesus is the Light.

Get what I'm saying here?

 

[PsyOps]

I have two sisters who are in the Catholic Church and I'm a Protestant. I did worry about both of them. Then I rode from Lusby to Virginia Beach with one of my sisters and we talked about our faith. I found that my sister shares a strong faith. Jesus doesn't require you to go to a particular church. Jesus doesn't require you to practice your religion in a particular way. Jesus requires that you believe. IMHO He requires your faith in Him.

I think that was my point. But I’m sure you’ve read plenty of posts in here of people questioning other’s salvation. I had one person actually tell me – in no uncertain terms – that I can’t possibly be saved if I don’t attend church. I had another tell me that if you’re not Catholic you’re not saved. Then there are others accusing Catholics of not being saved because they worship idols and adhere to other practices that are contrary to the bible. I can disagree with practices, philosophies, and ideologies but the one thing I can’t do is determine if someone is saved. I wont do that.

I haven't given my opinion until now. In my opinion.... If I want to know if this man is saved, all I have to do is ask him.

IMHO.... the reason it is so difficult for a gay person [or any sinner for that matter] to truly have faith is the darkness of the sin they are engaged in.

Let me put it this way. I'm sure almost everyone has told a lie. [Thou shalt not bear false witness]. Johnny and Timmy are playing baseball in the back yard and Johnny hits a ball through the neighbor's window. Johnny doesn't want to get in trouble so he blames Timmy. Johnny has just told a lie on Timmy, and in Tommy's heart he feels that little dark chill as soon as he commits the sin.

Now let's go to another degree of darkness. Johnny is older now and he gets hold of some porn. He goes into a room by himself, locks the door and watches the porn. As he locks the door and gets ready to watch the porn he gets that little dark chill but it's a little bigger now, a little darker now. He knows this is not something you do in Sunday School. To make matters worse, that Porn will etch itself in his memory and it will pop up from time to time to remind him of that dark chill. It kind of reminds us of acid trips and flash backs.

I'm not saying there is any progression of sin here.... I'm not saying that if someone breaks a window with a baseball they will progress to gay.... please don't get me wrong.... I'm trying to show degrees of darkness...

When Johnny gets a little older he finds himself in an intimate moment with Sid. A chemical attraction has brought him to this moment and he knows he is about to step over a threshold that the something inside him knows as taboo. Johnny has been told all his life that he shouldn't have sex outside of marriage, let alone this. Imagine the degree of darkness that exists in that moment.

Jesus is the Light.

Get what I'm saying here?

I get everything you posted. My limited understanding of God, He looks at all of us the same: the murderer, the person watching porn, the liar, the child molester, etc… God sees them all the same. “For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” – Romans 3:23. The degree of sin, from our standpoint can be measured and we place a penalty that is commensurate with the ‘crime’. Murder gets a harsher penalty than theft. God is pure and sin is a contamination regardless of the enormity of the sin. God gave the standard that if you’re a murderer, a thief, or committed no crime at all, and yet not saved you still suffer the same consequences: eternal damnation.

 

[hotcoffee]

I think that was my point. But I’m sure you’ve read plenty of posts in here of people questioning other’s salvation. I had one person actually tell me – in no uncertain terms – that I can’t possibly be saved if I don’t attend church. I had another tell me that if you’re not Catholic you’re not saved. Then there are others accusing Catholics of not being saved because they worship idols and adhere to other practices that are contrary to the bible. I can disagree with practices, philosophies, and ideologies but the one thing I can’t do is determine if someone is saved. I wont do that.



I get everything you posted. My limited understanding of God, He looks at all of us the same: the murderer, the person watching porn, the liar, the child molester, etc… God sees them all the same. “For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” – Romans 3:23. The degree of sin, from our standpoint can be measured and we place a penalty that is commensurate with the ‘crime’. Murder gets a harsher penalty than theft. God is pure and sin is a contamination regardless of the enormity of the sin. God gave the standard that if you’re a murderer, a thief, or committed no crime at all, and yet not saved you still suffer the same consequences: eternal damnation.

Cool.... Got it....

What I was saying was that some sins are so dark it takes a little more to get to salvation on our part.

Here's an example of what I'm saying.... you're sitting in a pitch black room... Your eyes have grown accustomed to the dark.... then someone walks in the room and flips on the overhead light.... at first you cover your eyes because the light is harsh. Some even say... turn off that light... it's too bright.....

Jesus is the light....

 

[rmorse]

Sorry... I thought you were directing them at me.... my error. Thanks for clearing that up.



The bible doesn't say that God abhors a person who lies or beats his wife. It doesn't say that God abhors a person who steals. It says God abhors homosexuality.

Then to top that off, people talk about accepting homosexuality but rebuke evangelical Christians. It's all very confusing to me. But these are confusing times I guess.

It's been my experience that most homosexuals are very deceitful. Don't get me wrong... I've known a few very nice homosexuals over my very long life. I have to say tho.... the majority of them tho... are not so very honest. Maybe it's because they are waiting to be attacked. That could be it... but I've met very few who weren't deceitful people. It's almost as if it's part of the lifestyle.

I've also noticed that Christians seem to tiptoe around talking about eternal life with homosexuals and bisexuals. I don't want to sit back and say nothing if this man is lip syncing salvation. I believe he does go to church but I don't know if he goes regularly. He knows what the Bible says about homosexuality. It might be holding him back.

Please point out in the bible where it says god abhors homosexuality.

 

[MDSupremacist]

Please point out in the bible where it says god abhors homosexuality.

Lev 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination.
Lev 20:13
If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them.

 

[rmorse]

Lev 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, because it is an abomination.
Lev 20:13
If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them.

But I thought the OT wasn't meant to be followed.

 

[rmorse]

Oh, and if we're doing the OT, the following are also abominations:

Liars
People who justify sinners
Idolatry
Drunks
Jealousy
Anger
Crossdressing
Unequal measurements or weights (I like this one the best, I think)



Should I go on? Or are you guys going to twist it? I mean, plain as day, these are just as bad as homosexuality. So seriously guys, stop using unequal measurements.....

 

[rmorse]

Oh, and if we're doing the OT, the following are also abominations:

Liars
People who justify sinners
Idolatry
Drunks
Jealousy
Anger
Crossdressing
Unequal measurements or weights (I like this one the best, I think)



Should I go on? Or are you guys going to twist it? I mean, plain as day, these are just as bad as homosexuality. So seriously guys, stop using unequal measurements.....

Oh, and it's also an abomination to round off the hair on your temple....FYI.

 

[hotcoffee]

Please point out in the bible where it says god abhors homosexuality.

It doesn't use the word abhor.... I always heard it did... but you are all correct....

This is from the NIV.... Leviticus 18: 22

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, this is detestable."​

Now I go the study part of my NIV and it says See 20:13

Leviticus 20:13 says ...

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads"​

Leviticus 18: 29-30 says...

"Everyone who does any of these detestable things - such persons must be cut off from their people. 30: Keep my requirements and do not follow and of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God."​

Deuteronomy 22:5 says...

"A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this."​

Deuteronomy 23: 18 says....

"You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute into the house of the Lord your God to pay any vow, because the Lord your God detests them both."​

And finally.... if you go to this link you will see that detest is synonym for abhor and defined as hate.

I don't usually do a bunch of quoting of verses. It tends to turn people off and quite frankly people tend to misquote by using verses out of context.... but there are so many verses in this case... IMHO this time it might be worth it.

 

[cheezgrits]

You couldn't be more wrong. But feel free to keep believing it.

Prove me wrong. Read some of these posts (yours included) and tell me you don't focus on telling most of us how "wrong" we are because we don't beleive like you.

 

[cheezgrits]

cheezgrits, my friend, - is this a story told by the Cherokees? :shrug:

Nope. Just a good story and very telling how a lot of Christians are too busy quoting memorized scripture and telling the rest of us how wrong or unsaved we are to appreciate the God that is around them everyday.

And what does my Nation have to do with that story? Not attacking, just can't follow the logic...

 

[Starman3000m]

Nope. Just a good story and very telling how a lot of Christians are too busy quoting memorized scripture and telling the rest of us how wrong or unsaved we are to appreciate the God that is around them everyday.

Citing Scriptural references from the Holy Bible is like citing references to legal writings and judicial language when it is necessary - particularly when a law is broken.

The God that is around us everyday wants us to know that we are guilty of breaking one or more of His Laws and are, thus, under the penalty of falling under His Judgment that calls for the death penalty. However, the same God also wants us to know that He as provided His Son as our Defense that allows us to escape the Judgment of eternal death. By placing faith in the Atoning Blood of The New Testament Jesus, our sins are forgiven, and there is no condemnation imposed against us. Jesus paid for our sins once and for all for those who trust in Him alone.

The premise is that all of mankind is guilty before God (Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12)and the only way we can be forgiven is through the Atoning Blood of Christ as stated in the Holy Bible.

When that happens...

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Romans 8:1)

in addition:

We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.

Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:9-12)

And what does my Nation have to do with that story? Not attacking, just can't follow the logic...

Probably because you have previously cited stories and sayings from Native American teachings. I thought this was a Native American story you had heard that made fun of all Christians who say they trust in God to save them.
:shrug:

 

[rmorse]

It doesn't use the word abhor.... I always heard it did... but you are all correct....

This is from the NIV.... Leviticus 18: 22

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, this is detestable."​

Now I go the study part of my NIV and it says See 20:13

Leviticus 20:13 says ...

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads"​

Leviticus 18: 29-30 says...

"Everyone who does any of these detestable things - such persons must be cut off from their people. 30: Keep my requirements and do not follow and of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the Lord your God."​

Deuteronomy 22:5 says...

"A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this."​

Deuteronomy 23: 18 says....

"You must not bring the earnings of a female prostitute or of a male prostitute into the house of the Lord your God to pay any vow, because the Lord your God detests them both."​

And finally.... if you go to this link you will see that detest is synonym for abhor and defined as hate.

I don't usually do a bunch of quoting of verses. It tends to turn people off and quite frankly people tend to misquote by using verses out of context.... but there are so many verses in this case... IMHO this time it might be worth it.

But that's my point....you're making it seem like homosexuality is the worst sin in the bible. However, it's ranked pretty much the same as lying and improperly cutting your hair. The pathetic thing is, just because some christians hate the idea of it, they BS and say that god hates it. Goes back to the cherry-picking comment earlier.

 

[mamatutu]

OK.... we've beat the Hurricane Sandy question to death ....

Let's go on to a new question..... k?


In your opinion.....
Is it possible for homosexuals to go to heaven?

Is it possible that we should not worry if homosexuals are going to heaven? Talk about beating a dead horse. Sheesh. Consider yourself lucky that you are not homosexual and do not have to question if you are going to heaven, in your opinion. The way to Heaven is not saving/changing someone else; it is ourselves and ourselves alone that dictates where we end up. This conversion, saving someone else, knocking on doors, my way or the highway is not a good thing. JMO. I am a follower of Cheezgrits. :runandhideinwoodsofmyancestors:

 

[hotcoffee]

But that's my point....you're making it seem like homosexuality is the worst sin in the bible. However, it's ranked pretty much the same as lying and improperly cutting your hair. The pathetic thing is, just because some christians hate the idea of it, they BS and say that god hates it. Goes back to the cherry-picking comment earlier.

Is it possible that we should not worry if homosexuals are going to heaven? Talk about beating a dead horse. Sheesh. Consider yourself lucky that you are not homosexual and do not have to question if you are going to heaven, in your opinion. The way to Heaven is not saving/changing someone else; it is ourselves and ourselves alone that dictates where we end up. This conversion, saving someone else, knocking on doors, my way or the highway is not a good thing. JMO. I am a follower of Cheezgrits. :runandhideinwoodsofmyancestors:

Points taken, respectfully. I'm not trying to change the world.

I'm not trying to label one sin worse than another. As shown so many times in this thread, all sin is reason for concern and we as humans will never be able to be completely sin free. Only Jesus resisted all temptations.

I'm talking about a particular man, who happens to be diagnosed as bi-polar and during his manic episodes happened to go on homosexual binges. He claimed to be "Saved" [in his words] at a revival. He may have experienced a life changing event.

I'm saying I'm concerned for him. If in fact this man has experienced a rebirth in faith, it would be an excellent occurrence in my opinion. I also think that if in fact he has been "born again" as a new being.... it would make his ex-wife extremely happy for him. She is a Christian and she would like to have the father of her three children meet her, and the children, in the clouds at the rapture.

I asked the question to bring about a conversation. I waited to give my opinion until the majority stated theirs.

There is no knocking on doors. There is no pressure to change anyone. Only the Lord can bring on a change. There is a question and discussion.

If and when I see this man again; If and when the conversation naturally takes a turn to salvation, then I will ask him. Maybe, should the conversation naturally take that turn to salvation, there will be no need to ask. Could be he'll ask me if I have been "born again".

 

[rmorse]

The Bible says that God abhors homosexual activity. Maybe these are some of the reasons He hates it so much.

Above quote makes it seem like you think god hates homosexuality more than drunkeness. According to the OT, they are equal. Along with cutting your hair wrong, sitting on a chair that a woman who is on her period just sat on, eating pork, eating shellfish, etc. All equal.

The bible doesn't say that God abhors a person who lies or beats his wife. It doesn't say that God abhors a person who steals. It says God abhors homosexuality.

False. It doesn't say god abhors any of those people. It DOES say god considers it an abomination, along with shellfish and pork eating, lying, cutting your hair, etc.

It's been my experience that most homosexuals are very deceitful. Don't get me wrong... I've known a few very nice homosexuals over my very long life. I have to say tho.... the majority of them tho... are not so very honest. Maybe it's because they are waiting to be attacked. That could be it... but I've met very few who weren't deceitful people. It's almost as if it's part of the lifestyle.

Seems like YOU hold homosexuality as a worse sin than drunkeness, shellfish, pork, hair cutting, etc. Not the bible, but YOU.

Yeah, I just finished reading it myself. Homosexuality is described in the Bible as a man laying with a man or a woman laying with a woman. That's the definition of Old Testament sexual immorality. Or that's what I read anyway.

In the Old Testament, the earth opened up and swallowed a bunch of Levites. It's a really interesting read.

Heaven is in the New Testament. Us bacon eaters like the New Testament much better. There's forgiveness in the New Testament.

So if you like the NT better, than why do you have an issue with homosexuality? I suggest you re-read the NT. It doesn't specifically call out homosexuality in the same way it calls it out in the OT. Don't flip flop/cherry-pick. You can't use OT to support your own views on homosexuality, and then disregard the other things that the OT clearly states are sins. So, if you want to say how the NT is better/the "truth", stick to just using the NT to condemn homosexuals.

Eating shellfish isn't a sin and ideally hell would be empty, but people choose to go there. Again, you have given yourself a nice comfort here in talking yourself out of believing in hell but it will be little comfort to you if you find yourself there.

False. Eating shellfish is clearly called out as a sin in the OT. Or are we back to claiming the OT doesn't really matter?

Points taken, respectfully. I'm not trying to change the world.

I'm not trying to label one sin worse than another. As shown so many times in this thread, all sin is reason for concern and we as humans will never be able to be completely sin free. Only Jesus resisted all temptations.

As I layed out above, you clearly are trying to label one sin as worse than another. Plain as day.

 

[rmorse]

So if you like the NT better, than why do you have an issue with homosexuality? I suggest you re-read the NT. It doesn't specifically call out homosexuality in the same way it calls it out in the OT. Don't flip flop/cherry-pick. You can't use OT to support your own views on homosexuality, and then disregard the other things that the OT clearly states are sins. So, if you want to say how the NT is better/the "truth", stick to just using the NT to condemn homosexuals.

So, reading my above quote....please (anyone) post exactly where the NT states that homosexuality is a ticket straight to hell. Post where, in the NT, it's stated that homosexuality is worse than any other sin (like lying to your parents).

 

[Cheeky1]

In your opinion.....
Is it possible for homosexuals to go to heaven?

It is possible for anyone to go to heaven.

Does this answer your question?

 

[hotcoffee]

Above quote makes it seem like you think god hates homosexuality more than drunkeness. According to the OT, they are equal. Along with cutting your hair wrong, sitting on a chair that a woman who is on her period just sat on, eating pork, eating shellfish, etc. All equal.



False. It doesn't say god abhors any of those people. It DOES say god considers it an abomination, along with shellfish and pork eating, lying, cutting your hair, etc.




Seems like YOU hold homosexuality as a worse sin than drunkeness, shellfish, pork, hair cutting, etc. Not the bible, but YOU.



So if you like the NT better, than why do you have an issue with homosexuality? I suggest you re-read the NT. It doesn't specifically call out homosexuality in the same way it calls it out in the OT. Don't flip flop/cherry-pick. You can't use OT to support your own views on homosexuality, and then disregard the other things that the OT clearly states are sins. So, if you want to say how the NT is better/the "truth", stick to just using the NT to condemn homosexuals.



False. Eating shellfish is clearly called out as a sin in the OT. Or are we back to claiming the OT doesn't really matter?



As I layed out above, you clearly are trying to label one sin as worse than another. Plain as day.

OK.... fine...

In my heart.... I know it's a much darker place, that dark chill that goes down the spine is much darker for an act of homosexuality than eating shellfish. It's harder to experience the light.... not by any means impossible but much harder. I know because I heard it from the mouths of homosexuals themselves.

You can call me names, label me a bigot, tell me I'm wrong until the cows come home.... but I know that Jesus is the Light and He can save everyone who comes to Him.

I noticed that there is one particular person on this forum who may have some first hand knowledge of what I am describing here.... It's a different man than I am talking about but he knows how dark that place can be. I noticed that he has not commented on this thread at all. Interesting.....

 

[Cheeky1]

So, reading my above quote....please (anyone) post exactly where the NT states that homosexuality is a ticket straight to hell. Post where, in the NT, it's stated that homosexuality is worse than any other sin (like lying to your parents).

As far I've read. . .the WORST sin is to choose to not love and obey God. Proof of that practically the entire bible