Larry and I just now were arguing about that. They just showed it again on the History Channel and I SWEAR his head snapped BACK, not forward, indicating he was shot from the front.
JFK Poll
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Larry and I just now were arguing about that. They just showed it again on the History Channel and I SWEAR his head snapped BACK, not forward, indicating he was shot from the front.
http://cdo.co.uk/jfk/download.php?show=zapruder
Here it is for anyone who wants to see it for themselves. WARNING: gruesome!
Jackie's face was inches from his when he got the second shot. Can you imagine? *shudder*
Here it is for anyone who wants to see it for themselves. WARNING: gruesome!
Jackie's face was inches from his when he got the second shot. Can you imagine? *shudder*
donbarzini
Well-Known Member
Re: The Russo book...
Larry, can you do it with a Mannlicher-Carcano? Any Mannlicher-Carcano? 'cause you can't use the one found at the book depository. When they tried to do a ballistic test on the rifle, the bolt assembly came out in their hand.
As far as the "marksman" rating. Civilians tend to confuse "marksman" with "expert". The "marksman" rating is given to those who meet the MINIMUM BASIC QUALIFICATIONS.
Which in the vernacular means: "they are capable of hitting a bull in the a$$ with a bass fiddle."
Larry, can you do it with a Mannlicher-Carcano? Any Mannlicher-Carcano? 'cause you can't use the one found at the book depository. When they tried to do a ballistic test on the rifle, the bolt assembly came out in their hand. As far as the "marksman" rating. Civilians tend to confuse "marksman" with "expert". The "marksman" rating is given to those who meet the MINIMUM BASIC QUALIFICATIONS.
Which in the vernacular means: "they are capable of hitting a bull in the a$$ with a bass fiddle."
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Everybody is...
...gonna believe what they want but FWIW...
From the Zap film:
Connelly obviously hears and reacts to a shot from behind (miss)
Jack obviously gets shot through the neck from behind (hit #1)
then the round goes into Connelly, Jack barely reacts forward and this is more from clutching at his wound than the force of the bullet. There is little resistance so no pressure builds up. The energy is not conserved, it exits.
Jack gets hit in the back of the head (hit #2)
The bullet easily penetrates, as did the neck shot, barely moving Jack at all BUT the neck shot met little resistance and exited him intact. The head shot penetrates, starts coming apart because it hit something hard and fragments work towards the front, piercing his skull and starting a chain reaction.
In the mean time, all this energy has built up, conservation of energy, in an instant and MUST go somewhere, path of least resistance, bums rush out the front EXPLODING his head and forcing him back. Fragments and a shower of blood flying forward under pressure absolutely preclude this from being a frontal shot.
Fragments from the front that are just coming free fly backwards with him. He is a horrible mess.
2 hits in 5.6 seconds from about 100 yards.
Numerous tests have been done, same type weapon, bullets, scope. The Zap film was used to establish the timing from when he was fine to the fatal shot.
2 hits and 3 shots was achieved in every test. One even had 4 shots two hits in the time allowed. Some 3 for 3.
At no time in the Zap film does anyone look toward the camera because all the shots came from behind.
The film, to me, is clear, the front of his head comes apart, not the back. All the people who swear it was the back are simply wrong according to the tape.
...gonna believe what they want but FWIW...
From the Zap film:
Connelly obviously hears and reacts to a shot from behind (miss)
Jack obviously gets shot through the neck from behind (hit #1)
then the round goes into Connelly, Jack barely reacts forward and this is more from clutching at his wound than the force of the bullet. There is little resistance so no pressure builds up. The energy is not conserved, it exits.
Jack gets hit in the back of the head (hit #2)
The bullet easily penetrates, as did the neck shot, barely moving Jack at all BUT the neck shot met little resistance and exited him intact. The head shot penetrates, starts coming apart because it hit something hard and fragments work towards the front, piercing his skull and starting a chain reaction.
In the mean time, all this energy has built up, conservation of energy, in an instant and MUST go somewhere, path of least resistance, bums rush out the front EXPLODING his head and forcing him back. Fragments and a shower of blood flying forward under pressure absolutely preclude this from being a frontal shot.
Fragments from the front that are just coming free fly backwards with him. He is a horrible mess.
2 hits in 5.6 seconds from about 100 yards.
Numerous tests have been done, same type weapon, bullets, scope. The Zap film was used to establish the timing from when he was fine to the fatal shot.
2 hits and 3 shots was achieved in every test. One even had 4 shots two hits in the time allowed. Some 3 for 3.
At no time in the Zap film does anyone look toward the camera because all the shots came from behind.
The film, to me, is clear, the front of his head comes apart, not the back. All the people who swear it was the back are simply wrong according to the tape.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Don...
...Tattaglia is a pimp. Until this moment, I didn't know it was you...
The rifle 'coming' apart is explainable. And you, Ken and Vrai could make the shots after about 1/2 hour of instruction. Actually, I would have trouble because I'm a lefty. The gun is set up for right handed people and is BUILT to be fired rapidly in combat.
The bolt on bolt action rifles are removeable, most if the trigger is depressed.
Did Ozz throw it to the floor after shooting? Did he break it? Did they pick it up in such a way that the bolt fell out? Possible.
There are a million 'yeah but's" about this case and there was SOME conspiracy going on but, the facts are Oswald was there, the weapon was there and the shots are consistent with the 6th floor of the TSBD.
There is documentary evidence of Lee practicing rapid firing with this weapon in the days leading up. There were some 18 points of identification on the found weapon implicating Oswald.
This was NOT a difficult shot.
...Tattaglia is a pimp. Until this moment, I didn't know it was you...
The rifle 'coming' apart is explainable. And you, Ken and Vrai could make the shots after about 1/2 hour of instruction. Actually, I would have trouble because I'm a lefty. The gun is set up for right handed people and is BUILT to be fired rapidly in combat.
The bolt on bolt action rifles are removeable, most if the trigger is depressed.
Did Ozz throw it to the floor after shooting? Did he break it? Did they pick it up in such a way that the bolt fell out? Possible.
There are a million 'yeah but's" about this case and there was SOME conspiracy going on but, the facts are Oswald was there, the weapon was there and the shots are consistent with the 6th floor of the TSBD.
There is documentary evidence of Lee practicing rapid firing with this weapon in the days leading up. There were some 18 points of identification on the found weapon implicating Oswald.
This was NOT a difficult shot.
donbarzini
Well-Known Member
Larry, I can understand why you reach the conclusions that you do. However I must take issue with a few things.
Bullet #1 goes through JFK's neck then into the governor.
You've subscribed to the Warren Commission's hypothesis.
That "Magic Bullet" travelled through JFK's neck into JC's right side back, out by his right front shoulder, down into and THROUGH his left wrist and lodging in his left thigh.
I do not believe that the bullet HAD TO make any turns due to the downward offset angle of the motorcade to the shooter, however you simply CANNOT believe that the bullet did all that and lost
only ONE-ONE HUNDREDTH OF ONE PERCENT of its original weight, and virtually none of its shape.
As far as the marksmanship abilities go, the Warren Commission was NOT able to duplicate the feat on a moving target so they had to use a stationary one. Shortly after the Warren Commission published, CBS did a special hosted by Rather(1st big job). They used USMC experts(change a mosquito's sex at 50 yards)with same make rifles. They couldn't do it. At that time, CBS
put a million$ reward in the bank for ANYONE that could duplicate the shot. Nobody ever collected.
Bullet #1 goes through JFK's neck then into the governor.
You've subscribed to the Warren Commission's hypothesis.
That "Magic Bullet" travelled through JFK's neck into JC's right side back, out by his right front shoulder, down into and THROUGH his left wrist and lodging in his left thigh.
I do not believe that the bullet HAD TO make any turns due to the downward offset angle of the motorcade to the shooter, however you simply CANNOT believe that the bullet did all that and lost
only ONE-ONE HUNDREDTH OF ONE PERCENT of its original weight, and virtually none of its shape.
As far as the marksmanship abilities go, the Warren Commission was NOT able to duplicate the feat on a moving target so they had to use a stationary one. Shortly after the Warren Commission published, CBS did a special hosted by Rather(1st big job). They used USMC experts(change a mosquito's sex at 50 yards)with same make rifles. They couldn't do it. At that time, CBS
put a million$ reward in the bank for ANYONE that could duplicate the shot. Nobody ever collected.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Does...
...not! First one is an 'airball'. Connelly hears it and turns to look which was why he was in the perfect position for the 2nd, neck, shot to do some much to him.
The first tests of the weapon were based on 3 hits which was incorrect. There were only two hits. They tried to duplicate something that didn't happen...and failed.
They were also trying to do it faster than Oswald did.
I'll get chapter and verse as to the successful tests.
...not! First one is an 'airball'. Connelly hears it and turns to look which was why he was in the perfect position for the 2nd, neck, shot to do some much to him.
The first tests of the weapon were based on 3 hits which was incorrect. There were only two hits. They tried to duplicate something that didn't happen...and failed.
They were also trying to do it faster than Oswald did.
I'll get chapter and verse as to the successful tests.
donbarzini
Well-Known Member
Larry,
If you look at Zapruder again, you see that Connelly does not turn until AFTER JFK has his hands at his throat!
And the Warren Commission said that the first shot is the one that did the damage.
Why? Because the Dumba$$ they got to put the bullet on JFK's stretcher ####ed up and put it on Connelly's instead.
And the janitor that found it would not move off the fact that it WAS Connelly's and not JFK's
If you look at Zapruder again, you see that Connelly does not turn until AFTER JFK has his hands at his throat!
And the Warren Commission said that the first shot is the one that did the damage.
Why? Because the Dumba$$ they got to put the bullet on JFK's stretcher ####ed up and put it on Connelly's instead.
And the janitor that found it would not move off the fact that it WAS Connelly's and not JFK's
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Don...
...did you catch Discovery last night? GREAT stuff!
Discovery Ch trumps Newsweek!
...did you catch Discovery last night? GREAT stuff!
Discovery Ch trumps Newsweek!
T.Rally
New Member
England's great historian A.J.P. Taylor once wrote that "men are reluctant to believe that great events have small causes." In this case, the public has been reluctant to believe that John F. Kennedy--the young, glamorous and popular 35th President of the United States--was shot to death in his limousine in Dallas on November 22, 1963 by a 24 year old, poverty-stricken, wannabe Marxist ex-Marine drifter who chronically beat his wife.
Since the Warren Report stated in 1964 that a loser like Lee Harvey Oswald was responsible for the death of the leader of the free world, millions of people have concocted conspiracy theories trying to find out "what really happened." A whole industry of books, TV programs, and movies (culminating in Oliver Stone's "JFK" in 1991) has sprung up as a result. The amazing thing is that all these years later, the Warren Report is still the most credible theory on what happened in Dallas that day.
Since the Warren Report stated in 1964 that a loser like Lee Harvey Oswald was responsible for the death of the leader of the free world, millions of people have concocted conspiracy theories trying to find out "what really happened." A whole industry of books, TV programs, and movies (culminating in Oliver Stone's "JFK" in 1991) has sprung up as a result. The amazing thing is that all these years later, the Warren Report is still the most credible theory on what happened in Dallas that day.
Re: Everybody is...
No Larry, we will believe what we see.
Maybe we are seeing a different film, first there is a hit as you can see Kennedy reaches up to his throat and Jackie is responding to that hit. Connelly rotates in his seat. No data to support which shot this was from the film, it could have been the first shot or a second shot. For argument sake we will call it shot 1.
Explain the time lag from Kennedy's hands going to his neck until Connelly reacts. If this was a continuation of the first shot are you contending that it delayed a second or two after hitting Kennedy until it hit Connelly? Next hit observed is just before the hit to the head. You see Connelly straightening in the seat and then falling over from the strike to the right rear of his torso.
This is hit three and almost immediately after Connelly is hit, plus the additional missed shot that was featured in the Warren report now this gives us at least four shots being fired.
Give me a break, if this was the case how did the trailing motorcycle cop and Secret Service agent get blood and brain matter sprayed upon them? What would have happened if a head shot from the front was from a mercury loaded round (aka explosive bullet)?
The film makes it clear to me that it didn't happen the way you see it.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Ken...
...if I'm wrong about the sequence of shots, my bad. I've read in several places that 3 and only 3 shots were fired. Now, if the eyewitnesses claiming 3 and the researchers who debunked the audio and other claims of 4 or more shots are all part of the conspiracy, then I guess it's just me believing what I want to believe.
If exploding bullets are now part of the mix, I guess the conspiracy is so perfect that only the head shot from the front/grassy knoll/gutter/fence/overpass was a boomer? I'm not even going to ask what happened to the forensic evidence supporting this one.
As violent as JFK recoils from the shot from behind that blew up his head, I have no problem believing pieces went everywhere, front, back, side.
I've heard people swear up and down that it was this, it was that, it was from here, it was from there. I've heard people swear Oswald wasn't even there, couldn't have been. The rifle was planted. The bullets were planted.
In place of one man who had motive and opportunity we are offered:
The mob
The Vice President
The CIA
The 'military industrial complex'
Cuba
...and not one shred of evidence that stands up like the mountain of evidence that implicates Lee Harvey Oswald.
...if I'm wrong about the sequence of shots, my bad. I've read in several places that 3 and only 3 shots were fired. Now, if the eyewitnesses claiming 3 and the researchers who debunked the audio and other claims of 4 or more shots are all part of the conspiracy, then I guess it's just me believing what I want to believe.
If exploding bullets are now part of the mix, I guess the conspiracy is so perfect that only the head shot from the front/grassy knoll/gutter/fence/overpass was a boomer? I'm not even going to ask what happened to the forensic evidence supporting this one.
As violent as JFK recoils from the shot from behind that blew up his head, I have no problem believing pieces went everywhere, front, back, side.
I've heard people swear up and down that it was this, it was that, it was from here, it was from there. I've heard people swear Oswald wasn't even there, couldn't have been. The rifle was planted. The bullets were planted.
In place of one man who had motive and opportunity we are offered:
The mob
The Vice President
The CIA
The 'military industrial complex'
Cuba
...and not one shred of evidence that stands up like the mountain of evidence that implicates Lee Harvey Oswald.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Shhhh!!!!!
...how the hell can I keep the conspiracy going if I keep getting outed? Time to take you for a limo ride...
REMEBER EVERYONE: Steve was NEVER here!!!
...how the hell can I keep the conspiracy going if I keep getting outed? Time to take you for a limo ride...
REMEBER EVERYONE: Steve was NEVER here!!!
B
Bruzilla
Guest
Speaking of "lies" about Kennedy, I was watching some bio special about him, and the interviewer was talking to the doctors who tended to Kennedy. They talked about how he was often confined to a hospital bed, took numerous oral pain medications, and up to six injections a day for his messed up back. Anyone who was in that bad a shape was unlikely to be out banging starlets while Jackie wasn't looking.
I'm wondering if all the myths about Kennedy's sexxual prowess were nothing more than attempt to cover the fact that he was one step shy of an invalid.
I'm wondering if all the myths about Kennedy's sexxual prowess were nothing more than attempt to cover the fact that he was one step shy of an invalid.
I was wondering about that, too - how he could be rump shakin' with all those girls with his back problems.