Matthew 6:5-15 Prayer

[bcp]

Let me kick this out from under you real quick. All the bible verses you could possibly quote have been answered and countered (and have been for centuries) in full elsewhere in this forum. In addition, there is evidence of the honor to Mary before Constantine, so your website and subsequently your claim is invalid. But hey, who am I to disabuse you of your notions erroneous or not? It's your issue, not mine. :shrug:

Your links proving that in order to be saved I have to go through Mary?

It is possible that I someone skipped over it, or just forget where it says that Mary was to be the Secretary for Jesus, and that the way into Heaven was to call her, set up an appointment to talk to Jesus etc...

I just figured that Jesus was the light and the way.

but, I do look forward to your proof that does not come directly from the Catholic church. Where I do believe that Catholics are just as good Christians as any other Christians, I do not fall to the enchantment of the Vatican or the pope or do I require a Bishop to explain to me why what is not in the Bible is the real truth.

If it was the real truth, dont you think it might have been mentioned? Just a one liner at least? Seems like some pretty important stuff to leave out if you ask me.

 

[Radiant1]

Your links proving that in order to be saved I have to go through Mary?

It is possible that I someone skipped over it, or just forget where it says that Mary was to be the Secretary for Jesus, and that the way into Heaven was to call her, set up an appointment to talk to Jesus etc...

I just figured that Jesus was the light and the way.

but, I do look forward to your proof that does not come directly from the Catholic church. Where I do believe that Catholics are just as good Christians as any other Christians, I do not fall to the enchantment of the Vatican or the pope or do I require a Bishop to explain to me why what is not in the Bible is the real truth.

If it was the real truth, dont you think it might have been mentioned? Just a one liner at least? Seems like some pretty important stuff to leave out if you ask me.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that you have to go through Mary; therefore, I cannot nor would I provide you such links. If you're going to argue against something at least get it right.

 

[bcp]

Wasnt Pope Benedict a Pope?
according to Pope Benedict, We obtain everythign through Mary, including salvation.
But, I cant find that in the Bible, All I can find is that we gain salvation through Jesus Christ.
I use the King James Version. Is there something else I should be reading.

Pope Benedict XV wrote in 1918: “To such an extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man’s salvation, and immolated him - insofar as she could in order to appease the justice of God, that we might rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ” . Mary is entitled to the title of Queen because, as Pope Pius XII expressed it in a 1946 radio speech, “Jesus is King throughout all eternity by nature and by right of conquest: through him, with him, and subordinate to him, Mary is Queen by grace, by divine relationship, by right of conquest, and by singular election.” Mary possesses a unique relationship with all three Persons of the Trinity, thereby giving her a claim to the title of Queenship. She was chosen by God the Father to be the Mother of his Son; God the Holy Spirit chose her to be his virginal spouse for the Incarnation of the Son; and God the Son chose her to be his mother, the means of incarnating into the world for the purposes of the redemption of humanity. This Queen is also our Mother. While she is not our Mother in the physical sense, she is called a spiritual mother, for she conceives, gives birth, and nurtures the spiritual lives of grace for each person. As Mediatrix of All Graces, she is ever present at the side of each person, giving nourishment and hope, from the moment of spiritual birth at Baptism to the moment of death. The confidence that each person should have in Mary was expressed by Pope Pius IX in the encyclical Ubipriinum : “The foundation of all our confidence. . . is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”

 

[Radiant1]

Wasnt Pope Benedict a Pope?
according to Pope Benedict, We obtain everythign through Mary, including salvation.
But, I cant find that in the Bible, All I can find is that we gain salvation through Jesus Christ.
I use the King James Version. Is there something else I should be reading.

Yeah he was a pope, so? Do you think every word that comes forth from a pope is automatically Catholic dogma or something? What this is referring to is Mary's fiat (Gospel of Luke). If Mary didn't say yes to God, then the Son of God wouldn't have been born to procure our salvation by His death and resurrection. This doesn't mean our salvation is from Mary. Re-read your quote above. “Jesus is King throughout all eternity by nature and by right of conquest: through him, with him, and subordinate to him, Mary is Queen...” Through Him, with Him, and subordinate to Him -- the same as you and me when it comes down to it, well except God didn't choose you or me in the same manner as He did Mary (no surprise there).

Look, I understand that some people need to keep their faith as simple as possible, and that's all fine and good, but that doesn't mean that your simple faith is all there is to it. The mysteries of God are rarely if ever simple.

I'll refrain at this time from making comments about the dichotomy you exhibit with your supposed bible-only doctrine.

 

[bcp]

I'll refrain at this time from making comments about the dichotomy you exhibit with your supposed bible-only doctrine.

I would like the hear about whatever additional writings you have that I should be following.
again, I missed the part where it stated that you can now add to what was said in the Bible.

If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this Book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the Book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this Book" Revelation 22:18-19.

Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it

Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar" Proverbs 30:6

 

[Radiant1]

I would like the hear about whatever additional writings you have that I should be following.
again, I missed the part where it stated that you can now add to what was said in the Bible.

If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this Book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the Book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this Book" Revelation 22:18-19.

Deuteronomy 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it

Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar" Proverbs 30:6

First, if you are going to use the OT about "adding unto these things" then you have to do away with the whole NT. Is the NT a lie? Where does that leave you? Hint: It leaves you absolutely no where. Now, can you show me where it says in the NT "bible-only"? Hint: You can't because it doesn't. Wait, there's more! Can you show me in the bible where it says what books are to be in the bible? Hint: You can't because it doesn't nor could it. Hey guess what? I can show you in the bible where Jesus established an authoritative Church (Matthew 16:18 amongst others). So, what was I supposed to show you again?

In 2000 years of Christian history not one Christian believed in the bible only until Martin Luther one thousand five hundred years later. Oh and btw, the thought of Mary being a mere vessel as you believe is a 20th century fundamentalist contruct. The early Christians honored Mary, and Catholics still do to this day. Heck, even the reformers did for that matter. The truth is what it is, and I don't think God cares to kowtow to your personal sensibilities when it comes to it either.

Oh yeah, and since you're the one who adheres to this supposed bible-only stuff and you're the one who brought it up, why do you follow some things in the bible and not others? How is it that you pick and choose? Does the bible even say you can do that?

 

[bcp]

First, if you are going to use the OT about "adding unto these things" then you have to do away with the whole NT. Is the NT a lie? Where does that leave you? Hint: It leaves you absolutely no where. Now, can you show me where it says in the NT "bible-only"? Hint: You can't because it doesn't. Wait, there's more! Can you show me in the bible where it says what books are to be in the bible? Hint: You can't because it doesn't nor could it. Hey guess what? I can show you in the bible where Jesus established an authoritative Church (Matthew 16:18 amongst others). So, what was I supposed to show you again?

In 2000 years of Christian history not one Christian believed in the bible only until Martin Luther one thousand five hundred years later. Oh and btw, the thought of Mary being a mere vessel as you believe is a 20th century fundamentalist contruct. The early Christians honored Mary, and Catholics still do to this day. Heck, even the reformers did for that matter. The truth is what it is, and I don't think God cares to kowtow to your personal sensibilities when it comes to it either.

Oh yeah, and since you're the one who adheres to this supposed bible-only stuff and you're the one who brought it up, why do you follow some things in the bible and not others? How is it that you pick and choose? Does the bible even say you can do that?

I take this nasty turn on your part to mean that you now realize that you should not be worshiping Mary.
Its ok, its how we learn.
and by the way, if you have to ask about adding books to the completed Bible, then you might be the one that wants to read it because, its in there.
However, you have still failed to show me where the Bible says to worship Mary. I have shown you places that say you shouldn't, but so far you have not been able to back up those lies that you heard in the Catholic church.
You would think that the Mary worship would have been covered.
I would expect to find it somewhere around the Matthew 6:9-13 area. But its not there, says to pray to our father,, don't remember it saying pray to Mary.

 

[Radiant1]

I take this nasty turn on your part to mean that you now realize that you should not be worshiping Mary.
Its ok, its how we learn.
and by the way, if you have to ask about adding books to the completed Bible, then you might be the one that wants to read it because, its in there.
However, you have still failed to show me where the Bible says to worship Mary. I have shown you places that say you shouldn't, but so far you have not been able to back up those lies that you heard in the Catholic church.
You would think that the Mary worship would have been covered.
I would expect to find it somewhere around the Matthew 6:9-13 area. But its not there, says to pray to our father,, don't remember it saying pray to Mary.

Why do you perceive my response as being nasty? I'm simply pointing out to you that your entire premise is false.

Catholics don't worship Mary, so any biblical injunction against worshiping anyone other than God is moot. The bible doesn't say what constitutes the bible or that it is it's sole authority, so any attempt on your part to use it as such is moot. By all means ignore my questions to you and continue to pontificate and throw out red herrings if you wish, but don't expect me to bother to respond to them in the manner you're looking for or give your opinion any credence in the meantime.

 

[bcp]

Why do you perceive my response as being nasty? I'm simply pointing out to you that your entire premise is false.

Catholics don't worship Mary, so any biblical injunction against worshiping anyone other than God is moot. The bible doesn't say what constitutes the bible or that it is it's sole authority, so any attempt on your part to use it as such is moot. By all means ignore my questions to you and continue to pontificate and throw out red herrings if you wish, but don't expect me to bother to respond to them in the manner you're looking for or give your opinion any credence in the meantime.

I suppose it depends on how you define worship, they do pray to her, they have statues of her, I would put that as a worship or exaltation of sorts.

but I have not ignored your questions, you asked for links, I provided them, I gave my thoughts, followed by scripture to substantiate those thoughts, I have asked you only to show me where Mary was given a stature in the Bible that would indicate she should be prayed to. You so far have not been able to do that.
you said I could not pick and choose, I'm not sure what I am picking and choosing, but I do know that I am choosing to believe the Bible.

All I really wanted to know was what basis the Catholic church had for the worship of Mary.
Simple question I would think.

 

[Radiant1]

I suppose it depends on how you define worship, they do pray to her, they have statues of her, I would put that as a worship or exaltation of sorts.

Does your church have a cross at the altar of on the front lawn? Do you have a cross in your home? I think I recall saying you did, but I could be wrong. At any rate, if so, then by your own definition you are worshiping it. Do you have pictures of loved ones? If so, by your own definition you are worshiping them.

When your mother and/or father died, do you think they're rotting in the ground or do you think they're in Heaven with God? If they're in Heaven with God are they truly dead? After all, this is why Christ came to Earth is it not? Have you ever talked to your mother and/or father? If your wife died today would you talk to her tomorrow? Catholics believe Mary is very much alive in Christ, the same with everyone else we consider saints or in Heaven after their death. To "pray to Mary" or anyone else is to ask for her intercession, which is the same thing as me asking for yours. This has already been explained in this thread, did you bother to read the whole thing or did you just jump in with ignorance?

Perhaps it would be wise for you to re-think what it is to worship and what it really means.

but I have not ignored your questions, you asked for links, I provided them, I gave my thoughts, followed by scripture to substantiate those thoughts,

I didn't ask for links, I only pointed out to you that you didn't bother to cite your sources and why it didn't matter anyway. Subsequently, I did ask you questions in post #87 in which you have failed to answer but that's okay because you really can't (although I might be amused to see you try).

I have asked you only to show me where Mary was given a stature in the Bible that would indicate she should be prayed to. You so far have not been able to do that.

I told you to read the gospel of Luke, Acts and Revelations. You can add James to that list as well. Go do it and get back with me, then we'll discuss what you read if you still haven't caught on.

you said I could not pick and choose, I'm not sure what I am picking and choosing, but I do know that I am choosing to believe the Bible.

Are you though? Are you believing everything it's telling you? Are you sure? The bible doesn't tell you that it is the only source of authority for all things Christian. In fact it's the opposite, it tells you that a Church is that authority (ironically the same authority that gave you the bible). You need to give this some serious thought, bcp.

All I really wanted to know was what basis the Catholic church had for the worship of Mary.
Simple question I would think.

It would be simple enough if it were true. Your entire premise that Catholics worship Mary is false. You can say it repeatedly, but that doesn't make it true. Are you eating herring for dinner, or crow?

 

[bcp]

Does your church have a cross at the altar of on the front lawn? Do you have a cross in your home? I think I recall saying you did, but I could be wrong. At any rate, if so, then by your own definition you are worshiping it. Do you have pictures of loved ones? If so, by your own definition you are worshiping them.

The Cross, as I am sure you know, is a symbol of Christianity, it is a reminder that Christ died for our sins, We dont pray to it.
Likewise pictures of loved ones, living and dead are reminders to us, I do not bow down and pray to them either.

When your mother and/or father died, do you think they're rotting in the ground or do you think they're in Heaven with God? If they're in Heaven with God are they truly dead? After all, this is why Christ came to Earth is it not? Have you ever talked to your mother and/or father? If your wife died today would you talk to her tomorrow? Catholics believe Mary is very much alive in Christ, the same with everyone else we consider saints or in Heaven after their death. To "pray to Mary" or anyone else is to ask for her intercession, which is the same thing as me asking for yours. This has already been explained in this thread, did you bother to read the whole thing or did you just jump in with ignorance?

Perhaps it would be wise for you to re-think what it is to worship and what it really means.

Actually, my parents are very much alive still.

Luke 4:8, "In reply Jesus said to him: "It is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"

So our worship belongs only to God. This leaves no room for the worship of the dead, or any other gods.

I didn't ask for links, I only pointed out to you that you didn't bother to cite your sources and why it didn't matter anyway. Subsequently, I did ask you questions in post #87 in which you have failed to answer but that's okay because you really can't (although I might be amused to see you try).
go back and read again, my scripture is most certainly listed to cover this.

Can you then please site the source that says Mary is to be prayed to, worshiped etc...
I for the life of me cant find it. A good christian would lead someone with questions to the answer given by Gods word.

I told you to read the gospel of Luke, Acts and Revelations. You can add James to that list as well. Go do it and get back with me, then we'll discuss what you read if you still haven't caught on.

I have a feeling Ive read the Bible more than most. Not any of those that you listed give me cause to think that I should worship, or praise Mary.

Are you though? Are you believing everything it's telling you? Are you sure? The bible doesn't tell you that it is the only source of authority for all things Christian. In fact it's the opposite, it tells you that a Church is that authority (ironically the same authority that gave you the bible). You need to give this some serious thought, bcp.

I already posted this, but I think you might have missed it so I will do it once again.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”
—Revelation 22:18-19

It would be simple enough if it were true. Your entire premise that Catholics worship Mary is false. You can say it repeatedly, but that doesn't make it true. Are you eating herring for dinner, or crow?

what is the 5th bead on the Rosary? 5th out of the 15 promises of our Lady (I presume that the lady is Mary?) The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
Recommends itself to me shall not perish? I thought Jesus Christ was the way. Am I wrong?
Hail Mary? arent there like 52 of those?
You can call it what you want, but to me it certainly sounds as though there is some worship and praise going on there.

 

[skilletGirl]

Are you though? Are you believing everything it's telling you? Are you sure? The bible doesn't tell you that it is the only source of authority for all things Christian. In fact it's the opposite, it tells you that a Church is that authority (ironically the same authority that gave you the bible). You need to give this some serious thought, bcp.

Being a non defined Christian (more towards Lutheran or baptist) the bible does say that it is the word of god. Not meant to be deciphered or altered by anyone else. The bible is clearly put as the ONLY source that has Gods will unaltered by man. A priest is only a human being, no less of a sinner than you and I. They will guide you into the wrong path at times even without meaning to. God will help guide them to helping you BUT all in all, the bible is the strict word of God and what's said in the bible is the only truth we have.

 

[hotcoffee]

Here's another thing I haven't understood... and a lot of churches, Protestant and Catholic do this....

Matthew 23:9 says "don't call anyone Father"....

All churches seem to have let the paganism in.... It's faith that means something... Just because there's a cross in the yard... doesn't mean we bow down to it.... Just because there's a statue of Mary doesn't mean Radiant bows down to it....

As she's told me many times... it's like talking to another friend... it's not worship.

Religion is very complicated and confusing.... Mary and Elizabeth are both strong examples of Divine Intervention for the good of mankind.

The Bible doesn't tie them to their earthly father.... but it does tie them to the Holy Spirit... right?

 

[Zguy28]

Here's another thing I haven't understood... and a lot of churches, Protestant and Catholic do this....

Matthew 23:9 says "don't call anyone Father"....

The only thing I can figure is because of how Paul referred to Timothy as "his son in the faith" and he was a father-figure to Christians in the churches he planted. He did say "imitate me" when writing to them and referred to them as his children.

 

[hotcoffee]

The only thing I can figure is because of how Paul referred to Timothy as "his son in the faith" and he was a father-figure to Christians in the churches he planted. He did say "imitate me" when writing to them and referred to them as his children.

Maybe it had something to do with the translation. That's something to look into if we ever get to Acts or the Letters....

 

[skilletGirl]

The only thing I can figure is because of how Paul referred to Timothy as "his son in the faith" and he was a father-figure to Christians in the churches he planted. He did say "imitate me" when writing to them and referred to them as his children.

"Imitate me" does not mean the same as "try to be me" because, as all Christians know, no man on earth except for Jesus, was without sin SO. No one other than Jesus could have the right to be called "father" in the same way.

 

[bcp]

Here's another thing I haven't understood... and a lot of churches, Protestant and Catholic do this....

Matthew 23:9 says "don't call anyone Father"....

All churches seem to have let the paganism in.... It's faith that means something... Just because there's a cross in the yard... doesn't mean we bow down to it.... Just because there's a statue of Mary doesn't mean Radiant bows down to it....

As she's told me many times... it's like talking to another friend... it's not worship.

Religion is very complicated and confusing.... Mary and Elizabeth are both strong examples of Divine Intervention for the good of mankind.

The Bible doesn't tie them to their earthly father.... but it does tie them to the Holy Spirit... right?

See, I don't have a problem with calling the priest father, to me a father could be the guy that just happened to be there when you were conceived, or it can be a figure in your life that guides you and instructs you, and a Priest would certainly fall into this category. Im not even Catholic (shock) and if the situation were presented, I would refer to him as father out of respect.. I just wouldn't worship or pray to Mary,,,, out of respect for Jesus Christ.

 

[skilletGirl]

Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. (Exodus 34:14 NIV)
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. (Deuteronomy 32:16 NIV)

Ill just throw these verses in here for extra support showing how you are supposed to worship God and Jesus Christ, and them alone.

 

[Radiant1]

The Cross, as I am sure you know, is a symbol of Christianity, it is a reminder that Christ died for our sins, We dont pray to it.
Likewise pictures of loved ones, living and dead are reminders to us, I do not bow down and pray to them either.

Exactly, and neither does a Catholic pray to a statue.

Actually, my parents are very much alive still.

Good for you and them, but my point remains.

Luke 4:8, "In reply Jesus said to him: "It is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'"

So our worship belongs only to God. This leaves no room for the worship of the dead, or any other gods.

I don't disagree.

Can you then please site the source that says Mary is to be prayed to, worshiped etc...
I for the life of me cant find it. A good christian would lead someone with questions to the answer given by Gods word.

I have lead you to it, but I guess you want me to spoon feed you.

1Cor 15:57 - victory over sin and death.

1Cor 12:27 - we're all one body in Christ.

James 5:16 - it's about praying for one another.

1Tim 2:1,8 - intercessory prayer yadda yadda.

Now, if by the merits of Christs death and resurrection there is no "death" for those who believe in Him (which assuredly counts Mary in), and we are all one body in Christ and are to pray for one another, then you should have no issue with Catholics asking Mary to pray for them anymore than you would if we were to ask you to pray for us.

I have a feeling Ive read the Bible more than most. Not any of those that you listed give me cause to think that I should worship, or praise Mary.

Worship, of course not. Praise, it depends on what you mean by that, but sure. Even Mary praised herself. "All generations shall call me blessed." Luke 1:46. Note that Elizabeth praises Mary as well in that chapter.

I already posted this, but I think you might have missed it so I will do it once again.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”
—Revelation 22:18-19

Right, no one should add to or take away from the prophecy.

Now, again, if you want to make that in reference to the entire bible, you have a problem because the OT says the same but yet you accept the NT, which surely added to the OT.

what is the 5th bead on the Rosary? 5th out of the 15 promises of our Lady (I presume that the lady is Mary?) The soul which recommends itself to Me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.
Recommends itself to me shall not perish? I thought Jesus Christ was the way. Am I wrong?
Hail Mary? arent there like 52 of those?
You can call it what you want, but to me it certainly sounds as though there is some worship and praise going on there.

As for the fifth "bead" it depends on which mystery you're talking about. All of them are Christ-centered and from scripture so I'm not sure what your beef is. Do you seriously have a problem with "Hail Mary"? If so, then you also have a problem with the angel Gabriel.

Dude, we need to stop because at this point I'm getting great amusement at your expense and it's going to be hard not to f with you from here on out.

 

[Radiant1]

Being a non defined Christian (more towards Lutheran or baptist) the bible does say that it is the word of god.

Of course the bible is the Word of God, no one disputes that.

Not meant to be deciphered or altered by anyone else.

True for certain books found in it, but not the entire bible. As I pointed out to your dad, the NT was added to the OT. Sorry, but you just can't get around that fact.

The bible is clearly put as the ONLY source that has Gods will unaltered by man.

Are you sure about that? Matthew 16 disagrees with you. In addition, how do you think you got the bible to begin with? Do you think it just dropped down from Heaven into someone's lap?

Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. (Exodus 34:14 NIV)
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. (Deuteronomy 32:16 NIV)

Ill just throw these verses in here for extra support showing how you are supposed to worship God and Jesus Christ, and them alone.

Agreed.



Is repeatedly stabbing strawmen a pasttime for your family?