More Trent Lott stuff
- Thread starter MGKrebs
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Tonio
Asperger's Poster Child
Re: Gotcha!
To be honest, I hadn't considered the possibility that the Top 10 Percent law could end up being affirmative action for lousy schools. Larry, I think you have a good point. If we don't hold all students to the same academic standard, where's the incentive for them to achieve?
To be honest, I hadn't considered the possibility that the Top 10 Percent law could end up being affirmative action for lousy schools. Larry, I think you have a good point. If we don't hold all students to the same academic standard, where's the incentive for them to achieve?
K
Kain99
Guest
No problem Krebs.... The federal Government has programs that assist black and poverty level whites to obtain homes. There are State programs which assist with utility bills. There are large college funds in place to assist blacks in paying their way through college. ( Not enough?)
Now on to the root of the problem ( at least in my opinion) It does take time to climb out of psychological ruts but who's really keeping the black man down?
I say the black "elites" Jesse Jackson for one is out of control," "He has become a national embarrassment. He is a self-serving racist, a problem profiteer who with the help of the liberal media, has co-opted Dr. King's dream and turned it into a nightmare.
The so called "black elites" have destroyed normal incentives among blacks and are instrumental in undermining American society in general.
By imputing racist motives to all who criticize irresponsible behavior, they spread discord and confusion, while sending the worst possible messages to young, impressionable blacks.
Now on to the root of the problem ( at least in my opinion) It does take time to climb out of psychological ruts but who's really keeping the black man down?
I say the black "elites" Jesse Jackson for one is out of control," "He has become a national embarrassment. He is a self-serving racist, a problem profiteer who with the help of the liberal media, has co-opted Dr. King's dream and turned it into a nightmare.
The so called "black elites" have destroyed normal incentives among blacks and are instrumental in undermining American society in general.
By imputing racist motives to all who criticize irresponsible behavior, they spread discord and confusion, while sending the worst possible messages to young, impressionable blacks.
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Maynard,
The laws exist for the field to be level, but that isn’t good enough for some, they want special advantages simply due to their gender or race. Special interest lobbying has obtained these special favors for many. That doesn’t make it level anymore. Some in this country seem to think by changing qualification requirements based on race and gender that you are helping someone out. When in fact you might be setting them up for failure and strengthening stereotypes due to those failures.
Everyone in our country has the opportunity to excel, it isn’t 1860 or 1960 anymore. The fact that some don’t excel doesn’t mean that they are deserving of an easier route. What does that develop or build? Is that your idea of “perfect”?
Now, since women outnumber men in the USA, should men have special advantage over women? Of course not, but based on how the “affirmative action” programs are run today it might not be too long before that is the case.
To have a level playing field you cannot use sex, race, religion, age, or disability as a factor on deciding who gets a job, housing, or a slot in a school. This is what was intended by the Civil Rights Act and Johnson’s “Affirmative Action”.
This is not a cop out either. I come from the meager backgrounds as a son of a career military man. My heritage is such that I could qualify for special treatment based on the percentage of Native American blood coursing through my veins. We never had money to burn and definitely none for college for any of us kids. We went to public schools and on to make our own careers, lives, and families. To date, I am the only one of my siblings that has an advanced degree and it took me about twenty years after high school to finally achieve that goal. Throughout my life I have never been given a special advantage, nor do I want one. I, like many others, have advanced on ability and nothing else and that is how it should be.
I don't know much about what Jesse Jackson says (except the tape I have of his speech at the 1988 Dem convention, which is awesome.) if you don't like what he says, don't listen. Jesse et al may have some influence, and that may be bad. But that shouldn't keep us from talking about what WE feel is right. I doubt we can legislate what Jesse says.
Kain, it sounds like you are OK with current programs. I am not advocating more programs, I am rebutting what I see as conservative attempts to dismantle what we have. And yes, I'm sure there could be changes/improvements.But honestly, I'll have to think about what I think those might be. It's all us libs can do to keep from having everything undone.
Ken, it sounds like you still think there is no possible program that won't have more detriment than good. I am not prepared at the moment to offer ideas for good programs, but I'll be thinking about it.
Kain, it sounds like you are OK with current programs. I am not advocating more programs, I am rebutting what I see as conservative attempts to dismantle what we have. And yes, I'm sure there could be changes/improvements.But honestly, I'll have to think about what I think those might be. It's all us libs can do to keep from having everything undone.
Ken, it sounds like you still think there is no possible program that won't have more detriment than good. I am not prepared at the moment to offer ideas for good programs, but I'll be thinking about it.
Maynard,
How do you figure that I think that there is no possible program that will work? What I am saying is that there is already a program in place. It’s called the Civil Rights Act and it was amplified further in Johnson’s EO 11246 (and all those that follow, same subject). No discrimination, period.
What many forget is that it’s a multi-avenue road. You can’t discriminate against any of the races or sexes, to include qualified white male candidates. It is a system of merit, you earn what you get.
Now, does this mean that a financially challenged person can’t get a leg up from schools in obtaining an education? No, it isn’t one of the prohibited categories under the law. If a government funded school offers subsidized tuition, scholarships, and other financial assistance (even if through public funding), I see no problem. That is as long as there is a standard means of determining qualification and these individuals possess those qualifications. But no one should receive any extra consideration based on race, sex, religion, ethnicity, age or disability.
OK, so you think there is no possible program that is legal under current law?
You may be right. The courts are obviously dealing with this a lot. But I would like to keep focused on what we think is right. If current law doesn't allow affirmative action type programs, should we change the law?
The Cilvil Rights Act says you can't do 'this" or "that", but there are so many areas where a court could not recognize a particular case, but the overall statistics are obviously showing a problem- such as the drug crime statistics I posted earlier. Also, bank loans, real estate agents, construction contracts, police "profiling".
You can tell people all you want that they can't be predjudiced, but how do you enforce it? If White folks are the vast majority of executives, and they make their deals and do their networking at White only country clubs, how are Blacks ever supposed to get the chance? (I'm not advocating making private clubs integrate, just illustrating a point.) If Whites get off with a fine for a minor drug bust, but a Black gets jail time, how are they supposed to build a family or career? If a White guy gets a bank loan with no problem, but a Black guy with the same qualifications doesn't, how is he supposed to compete? If a real estate agent won't show a Black couple houses in the "good" neighborhoods, how are they supposed to get out of the cycle? Believe me, this stuff still happens. Why should they have to work harder and be smarter and more creative just to stay even??
As far as Vrai's question about orientals; my thoughts- Blacks were brought here as slaves. They were not allowed to be educated, ...and you know all the rest of that. The Orientals that came over here originally were recruited as workers. They were assimilated into much , but not all, of our society right off the bat. There was never a question of education shortcomings. Plus, having come over voluntarily, they were able to maintain a family structure and a history/geneology, and support network. These are all important to creating an environment for success.
If you want me to contrast that with the African American situation, i will, but I suppose you know it and get the point.
You may be right. The courts are obviously dealing with this a lot. But I would like to keep focused on what we think is right. If current law doesn't allow affirmative action type programs, should we change the law?
The Cilvil Rights Act says you can't do 'this" or "that", but there are so many areas where a court could not recognize a particular case, but the overall statistics are obviously showing a problem- such as the drug crime statistics I posted earlier. Also, bank loans, real estate agents, construction contracts, police "profiling".
You can tell people all you want that they can't be predjudiced, but how do you enforce it? If White folks are the vast majority of executives, and they make their deals and do their networking at White only country clubs, how are Blacks ever supposed to get the chance? (I'm not advocating making private clubs integrate, just illustrating a point.) If Whites get off with a fine for a minor drug bust, but a Black gets jail time, how are they supposed to build a family or career? If a White guy gets a bank loan with no problem, but a Black guy with the same qualifications doesn't, how is he supposed to compete? If a real estate agent won't show a Black couple houses in the "good" neighborhoods, how are they supposed to get out of the cycle? Believe me, this stuff still happens. Why should they have to work harder and be smarter and more creative just to stay even??
As far as Vrai's question about orientals; my thoughts- Blacks were brought here as slaves. They were not allowed to be educated, ...and you know all the rest of that. The Orientals that came over here originally were recruited as workers. They were assimilated into much , but not all, of our society right off the bat. There was never a question of education shortcomings. Plus, having come over voluntarily, they were able to maintain a family structure and a history/geneology, and support network. These are all important to creating an environment for success.
If you want me to contrast that with the African American situation, i will, but I suppose you know it and get the point.
You are confusing things, affirmative action is when all factors of consideration result in an equal ranking of candidates. If this is the case then the selection of a minority does not create a preferential selection and is considered the correct thing to do. However, if differing standards are utilized for qualification and race, sex, religion, ethnicity, age, or disability are considering factors then you are in violation of the law.
Again I see some confusion. I fully understand that there might be areas of a law that might not be specifically addressed, but the function of our courts is to determine the applicability of those laws in the specific instances as determined by the issue and facts brought before it. To include a declaration as to the Constitutionality of the law.
As to racial biases in our judicial processes I am unsure if it exists or not because I have never actually researched this issue (though my gut feeling is that it does exist). To determine this you would need to be familiar with each and every similar case to determine if there was, in fact, bias based on race or some other factor or mitigating circumstances that results in differing punishment.
Civil Rights violations are being prosecuted. Many aren’t as newsworthy as other events but there are cases being heard regularly. Continued prosecution of these cases is how you enforce the law. Maybe stiffer penalties or sentences with no chance of parole could be the deterrent to this behavior and facilitate an end to it.
Of the four scenarios you listed three of them could be ruled to be illegal discrimination, if proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Private club membership is an area that you cannot do much about due to the Constitutional Right to freedom of association. However, if that private entity seeks to benefit from say tax-exempt status then I believe that the law states that they must be in full compliance with Civil Rights protections. Those protections certainly apply if the private entity seeks to do business with or receive funding from the Federal Government.
They shouldn’t, but then again should they be rewarded if they don’t work harder, aren’t as smart, or as creative?
In conclusion, and so there is no misunderstanding, I believe that discrimination (on any defined category of the Civil Rights Act) is an abomination and needs to be halted. No one should be held to higher or lower standards, we all should be treated equally. And no one should garner any preferential consideration beyond qualification and ability.
K
Kain99
Guest
I'm not sure how I lost you here Krebs... Listening to Jesse Jackson doesn't affect me at all...
I'm saying that there is much more on the playing field than just the white man saying blacks are inadequate. We have black leaders insighting riots over nothing.... re-enforcing old mind sets to gain invisible groud. It disgusts me. Hearing only one Jesse Jackson tape certainly limits your authority on the subject....
The entire racial issue is the very thing that holds the black race back. The disgusting thing is that many of them cling to the discrimination card like a teddy bear!
My white children have never stood up in a class and complained that a bad grade was given beacuse they were white! However this happens every day in school with blacks... "Mr. Cross you gave me a D because I am Black" Not because I didn't apply myself on the assignment but simply because I am black.... It is this attitude and mind set that will never allow blacks to be equal!
No amount of Government Aid will ever fix this problem!
If I stood up screeching everytime I ran into a failed sale, claiming that the client didn't sign a contract because I was a woman... How far would I actually be today?
It is oh so easy, to turn a blind eye to issues like reverse dicrimination and B.S. racial attitudes, when you really never integrate with the black race. My suggestion to you is.... get off the couch, stop watching T.V. and reading the paper and hang out in the hood with the brotha's for 20 minutes... You will quickly understand that idiots like Jesse Jackson do more of an injustice to the black race than the white man ever could!
There will always be idiot redneck hold outs who hate blacks because they are different..... On the other hand there will always be idiot redneck hold outs who consider women the weaker sex.
Discrimination is not an excuse to quit trying... Sorry, it's just the way I see it.
Kain...
I'll make a deal with you. I can't possibly know what you must feel regarding 9/11. I will try to be sensitive in my comments regarding that and refrain form speculating.
On the other- I ask you to not lecture me about what I should do to understand the Black race. I LIVE in the 'hood. I can see Andrew Young's house from the kitchen window. I am usually the only white guy at the Kroger or the Home Depot. I go to the movies at the Magic Johnson theater. I drive through West End every day, where H. Rap Brown (I forget his Muslim name) shot that cop a couple of years ago. This summer we would stop at a public swimming pool for a swim on the way home from work- only white people there EVER. John Lewis is my Congressman. I have to go past Morehouse College, where MLK went to school, to get anywhere. I live on Benjamin Mays Drive- named after MLK's mentor at Morehouse. My voting district is 98% Black. I know this because I worked for Max Cleland's campaign this year, and I saw the numbers.
My part of the neighborhood is very nice. The mayor (Black) lives around the corner, Hank Aaron lives down the street. But to get here you have to go through some of the worst parts of the city. Why do I live here? Because I sold a 1200 s.f. house on a less than 1/3 acre lot in a hip white neighborhood for $20,000 more than this 3000 s.f. on 1.5 acres cost me. How could that be? This neighborhood is not as "desirable" for some reason?
Discrimination DOES exist. It is not easy to end it. Pointing out those who try to take advantage of it does nothing to help or further the discussion. Just because one loudmouth or twelve bratty students reinforce your notion that all Blacks are looking for a handout, does not make it so.
I have had dreams where I was back in school, and I was the only white person. I struggled to not stand out, but not lose my identity, i.e., not 'become" black. I would walk around thinking that the other kids were talking about me behind my back. I would wonder if I was getting a fair chance to join the band or play sports. I would fret about whether the teachers could somehow be "blind" to my color when grading my essays. If I lost a book, my first thought would be that somebody was messing with me because I was a minority, and therefore different. If these attitudes are anywhere near accurate, how could they not come out when people speak? It is part of their LIVES, every day.
Oh yeah, and when my mother remarried when I was a teenager, she married a black man. So I'm part of a black family, too.
I'll make a deal with you. I can't possibly know what you must feel regarding 9/11. I will try to be sensitive in my comments regarding that and refrain form speculating.
On the other- I ask you to not lecture me about what I should do to understand the Black race. I LIVE in the 'hood. I can see Andrew Young's house from the kitchen window. I am usually the only white guy at the Kroger or the Home Depot. I go to the movies at the Magic Johnson theater. I drive through West End every day, where H. Rap Brown (I forget his Muslim name) shot that cop a couple of years ago. This summer we would stop at a public swimming pool for a swim on the way home from work- only white people there EVER. John Lewis is my Congressman. I have to go past Morehouse College, where MLK went to school, to get anywhere. I live on Benjamin Mays Drive- named after MLK's mentor at Morehouse. My voting district is 98% Black. I know this because I worked for Max Cleland's campaign this year, and I saw the numbers.
My part of the neighborhood is very nice. The mayor (Black) lives around the corner, Hank Aaron lives down the street. But to get here you have to go through some of the worst parts of the city. Why do I live here? Because I sold a 1200 s.f. house on a less than 1/3 acre lot in a hip white neighborhood for $20,000 more than this 3000 s.f. on 1.5 acres cost me. How could that be? This neighborhood is not as "desirable" for some reason?
Discrimination DOES exist. It is not easy to end it. Pointing out those who try to take advantage of it does nothing to help or further the discussion. Just because one loudmouth or twelve bratty students reinforce your notion that all Blacks are looking for a handout, does not make it so.
I have had dreams where I was back in school, and I was the only white person. I struggled to not stand out, but not lose my identity, i.e., not 'become" black. I would walk around thinking that the other kids were talking about me behind my back. I would wonder if I was getting a fair chance to join the band or play sports. I would fret about whether the teachers could somehow be "blind" to my color when grading my essays. If I lost a book, my first thought would be that somebody was messing with me because I was a minority, and therefore different. If these attitudes are anywhere near accurate, how could they not come out when people speak? It is part of their LIVES, every day.
Oh yeah, and when my mother remarried when I was a teenager, she married a black man. So I'm part of a black family, too.
K
Kain99
Guest
Krebs... I didn't mean to offend you. I'm glad that you are closely connected to black society. Maybe you can help me understand a few things that as a white person I currently do not.
Remember I'm on the outside looking in.... Not a position of authority.
In black society are those who acheive, looked up to? Are college graduates and business owners held up as mentors? Again - on the outside looking in, It seems that blacks who acheive are shunned by their own.
I have a good friend who is black... He works at The Pentagon and owns a very lucrative fitness business. This man was ostracized from his commmunity when it became obvious that he wanted more. Of course, this is only one example but it's the only one that I really know anything about.
It is impossible for me, as a white person to fully understand the feelings and motivations of black people. I'm hoping you can help me out. I really don't want to be heartless or insensitive... It's just that i'm working with limited data here.
Life has been tough for me too Krebs... Your not talking to a white chick who was handed anything on a silver platter. I guess it's possible that the harder you fight your way through life the less pity you have on those who refuse to.
Remember I'm on the outside looking in.... Not a position of authority.
In black society are those who acheive, looked up to? Are college graduates and business owners held up as mentors? Again - on the outside looking in, It seems that blacks who acheive are shunned by their own.
I have a good friend who is black... He works at The Pentagon and owns a very lucrative fitness business. This man was ostracized from his commmunity when it became obvious that he wanted more. Of course, this is only one example but it's the only one that I really know anything about.
It is impossible for me, as a white person to fully understand the feelings and motivations of black people. I'm hoping you can help me out. I really don't want to be heartless or insensitive... It's just that i'm working with limited data here.
Life has been tough for me too Krebs... Your not talking to a white chick who was handed anything on a silver platter. I guess it's possible that the harder you fight your way through life the less pity you have on those who refuse to.
Re: And another thing...
So as long as there is racial hatred, there will slave catchers - is that what you're saying? I hope that's not the case because there will ALWAYS be racial hatred in this world. It makes me sad to think that blacks will have to "pay" for their skin color twice - once from the haters and again from the slave catchers.
Maynard, you think being black is tough? Try being fat...or ugly...or mentally retarded.
There IS outrage, Krebs. Hello! The Republicans just tossed out Lott for racist comments - ya think David Duke will be elected to anything on a national level?
So as long as there is racial hatred, there will slave catchers - is that what you're saying? I hope that's not the case because there will ALWAYS be racial hatred in this world. It makes me sad to think that blacks will have to "pay" for their skin color twice - once from the haters and again from the slave catchers.
That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Now you're getting carried away. If, as you seem to think, every black person in this country feels like a victim, that's their problem. It's also an idea that has been put in their heads primarily by their "leaders", not by any ongoing incidences.
Maynard, you think being black is tough? Try being fat...or ugly...or mentally retarded.
K
Kain99
Guest
Re: And another thing...
Discrimination goes all ways and each instance is nauseating.
Klu Klux Klan
Yep Great example of what inbreeding can do! These guys are out to stop Imigration, quarrantine AIDS patients, drug-test all welfare recipients, keep foreigners from buying out land and businesses, irradicate Catholics cuz' they aint real Christians, and put drug-dealers in the electric chair. Bubba even wants to know if Massachusetts is part of the United States... He says "it sounds like some kinda foreign word... The Klan states that no apologies should be made for slavery nor should reparations be made. "Yeehaw!
Al Sharpton
Falsely accused Steven Pagones, the white prosecutor of kidnapping and raping Tawana Brawley. Sharpton admits he was wrong but he insists that he won't even consider apologizing "No apology is necessary it was a mistake."
Aryan Nations:
(from the web site)
WE BELIEVE that the Cananite Jew is the natural enemy of our Aryan (White) Race. This is attested by scripture and all secular history. The Jew is like a destroying virus that attacks our racial body to destroy our Aryan culture and the purity of our Race. Those of our Race who resist these attacks are called "chosen and faithful." John 8:44; 1 Thessalonians 2:15; Revelations 17:14
Jesse Jackson:
Jesse Jackson called Jews "Hymie" and New York "Hymie-Town." See any connection?
The world would be a much better place if we could get rid of all of the above mentioned.
Discrimination goes all ways and each instance is nauseating.
Klu Klux Klan
Yep Great example of what inbreeding can do! These guys are out to stop Imigration, quarrantine AIDS patients, drug-test all welfare recipients, keep foreigners from buying out land and businesses, irradicate Catholics cuz' they aint real Christians, and put drug-dealers in the electric chair. Bubba even wants to know if Massachusetts is part of the United States... He says "it sounds like some kinda foreign word... The Klan states that no apologies should be made for slavery nor should reparations be made. "Yeehaw!
Al Sharpton
Falsely accused Steven Pagones, the white prosecutor of kidnapping and raping Tawana Brawley. Sharpton admits he was wrong but he insists that he won't even consider apologizing "No apology is necessary it was a mistake."
Aryan Nations:
(from the web site)
WE BELIEVE that the Cananite Jew is the natural enemy of our Aryan (White) Race. This is attested by scripture and all secular history. The Jew is like a destroying virus that attacks our racial body to destroy our Aryan culture and the purity of our Race. Those of our Race who resist these attacks are called "chosen and faithful." John 8:44; 1 Thessalonians 2:15; Revelations 17:14
Jesse Jackson:
Jesse Jackson called Jews "Hymie" and New York "Hymie-Town." See any connection?
The world would be a much better place if we could get rid of all of the above mentioned.
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I'm not offended, kain. Obviously, This is just a subject I feel strongly about.
In black society are those who acheive, looked up to? Are college graduates and business owners held up as mentors? Again - on the outside looking in, It seems that blacks who acheive are shunned by their own.
I don't think you can generalize about blacks like that, just like you can't with whites. Some respect those who achieve, some don't. I just got back from seeing The two Towers at the Magic Johnson theater. Magic owns that, and a Starbucks, and a TGIFridays in the hood. I think he is respected by most because of what he has achieved, the way he deals with adversity, and because he recognizes that with his success comes a responsibility: he is in a position to help communities, so he does.
In the theater lobby there are pictures all over the walls of black role models (all entertainment personalities, I think.) Denzel, Aretha, Smokey Robinson, Neville Brothers, Dexter Gordon, I don't think they would be there if role models for blacks had no meaning.
Every day on the way to work, I see kids getting off the bus going to Morehouse. I assume most of them respect acheivement. On the other hand, I also drive by the corner liquor store where there always a bunch of guys and hookers hanging out at 8 o'clock in the morning. Just like you, I don't care about helping those people.
But this is supposed to be about whether affirmative action programs are acceptable. I hope I have pointed out situations where, despite laws that are supposed to make discrimination illegal, it still exists. If you think affirmative action programs are designed to help those hookers, I guess I can't help. I think they are designed to help those kids going to Morehouse. Making sure that they have equal access to a college education, then to a promotion in their job if they deserve it, and the chance to buy a house where they want it (just like us).
Affirmative action is not perfect. But it is the best we have. What is the alternative? Ken might say that the law already ensures equal protection. I say that the the law can say whatever it wants, that's not the reality.
Life has been tough for me too Krebs... Your not talking to a white chick who was handed anything on a silver platter.
I have not been handed anything on a silver platter either. But I have no problem giving up a couple of bucks a year to give someone else less fortunate the CHANCE to make a success of themselves. In the end, it's good for me anyway. If I believed that for every black kid out there trying to get into college, there were 10 guys scamming for a free ride, i might not feel the same. But i don't believe that. I think it's a stereotype.
As for you, vrai:
There IS outrage, Krebs. Hello! The Republicans just tossed out Lott for racist comments - ya think David Duke will be elected to anything on a national level?
It is nice to see that racist comments are unwelcome from our leaders. But just look around at some of the comments here on this board! A lot of rationalization and excuses. Lott stepping down is a good sign, but it's not the end.
The dream bit was just to try to put you in the frame of mind of a minority person. If you can visualize the daily hurdles, you may begin to understand why it is probably harder for a minority to achieve.
I hesitate to bring this up, but I will anyway. We provide extra services for handicapped people. We have no problem with that. Now wait. Perhaps by supporting affirmative action, we are recognizing that WE as a society, are handicapped in being able to be truly fair to minorities. (That's a new thought for me. not sure where it leads.)
In black society are those who acheive, looked up to? Are college graduates and business owners held up as mentors? Again - on the outside looking in, It seems that blacks who acheive are shunned by their own.
I don't think you can generalize about blacks like that, just like you can't with whites. Some respect those who achieve, some don't. I just got back from seeing The two Towers at the Magic Johnson theater. Magic owns that, and a Starbucks, and a TGIFridays in the hood. I think he is respected by most because of what he has achieved, the way he deals with adversity, and because he recognizes that with his success comes a responsibility: he is in a position to help communities, so he does.
In the theater lobby there are pictures all over the walls of black role models (all entertainment personalities, I think.) Denzel, Aretha, Smokey Robinson, Neville Brothers, Dexter Gordon, I don't think they would be there if role models for blacks had no meaning.
Every day on the way to work, I see kids getting off the bus going to Morehouse. I assume most of them respect acheivement. On the other hand, I also drive by the corner liquor store where there always a bunch of guys and hookers hanging out at 8 o'clock in the morning. Just like you, I don't care about helping those people.
But this is supposed to be about whether affirmative action programs are acceptable. I hope I have pointed out situations where, despite laws that are supposed to make discrimination illegal, it still exists. If you think affirmative action programs are designed to help those hookers, I guess I can't help. I think they are designed to help those kids going to Morehouse. Making sure that they have equal access to a college education, then to a promotion in their job if they deserve it, and the chance to buy a house where they want it (just like us).
Affirmative action is not perfect. But it is the best we have. What is the alternative? Ken might say that the law already ensures equal protection. I say that the the law can say whatever it wants, that's not the reality.
Life has been tough for me too Krebs... Your not talking to a white chick who was handed anything on a silver platter.
I have not been handed anything on a silver platter either. But I have no problem giving up a couple of bucks a year to give someone else less fortunate the CHANCE to make a success of themselves. In the end, it's good for me anyway. If I believed that for every black kid out there trying to get into college, there were 10 guys scamming for a free ride, i might not feel the same. But i don't believe that. I think it's a stereotype.
As for you, vrai:
There IS outrage, Krebs. Hello! The Republicans just tossed out Lott for racist comments - ya think David Duke will be elected to anything on a national level?
It is nice to see that racist comments are unwelcome from our leaders. But just look around at some of the comments here on this board! A lot of rationalization and excuses. Lott stepping down is a good sign, but it's not the end.
The dream bit was just to try to put you in the frame of mind of a minority person. If you can visualize the daily hurdles, you may begin to understand why it is probably harder for a minority to achieve.
I hesitate to bring this up, but I will anyway. We provide extra services for handicapped people. We have no problem with that. Now wait. Perhaps by supporting affirmative action, we are recognizing that WE as a society, are handicapped in being able to be truly fair to minorities. (That's a new thought for me. not sure where it leads.)
First, let me apologize for the wordiness. It's a tough subject.
Also, I have no desire to offend. It's just a subject that means a lot to me.
Finally:
We have made a lot of progress over the past 40 years. Even in the past 10 years. We are getting close to equality, but we are not quite there yet. Maybe in our lifetimes we will see the end of the need for affirmative action type programs.
Just so you know.
JT
Also, I have no desire to offend. It's just a subject that means a lot to me.
Finally:
We have made a lot of progress over the past 40 years. Even in the past 10 years. We are getting close to equality, but we are not quite there yet. Maybe in our lifetimes we will see the end of the need for affirmative action type programs.
Just so you know.
JT
Biscuit
Livin' Large
You have got to be kidding me. You are actually comparing blacks to people that have a true physical handicap. I am sure they would want you to be their poster boy on this. So your stand is black people are physically unable to hold a job and do well.
What the heck are you doing in the "hood" anyway? You sound like a white guy trying to be Politically Correct.
I guess you figure they can't help themselves, so I the Great White hope will dole out what I believe they need.
This is America, It is a capitalist society. If you have something of worth to offer, You will do well. You cannot argue with this, Way to many Minorities apply this philosophy and are today successful.
Biscuit
Livin' Large
In your district which is 98% black. I would think anyone who wanted to succeed would not have a problem! Doesn't seem there are many whites around to do any discriminating.
And since blacks who acheive are not shunned by their own, They should have full support from the community and be thriving!
Good point, Biscuit.
Maynard, I've lived on and off in predominantly black neighborhoods my whole life. Some have been filled with very nice, normal people; some have been filled with the dregs of society. The nice, normal people never looked askance at me - they were just my neighbors. The dregs, however, had racism on the brain - EVERYTHING bad happened because they were black. Couldn't possibly be because they stole or did drugs - nope, it was because of their skin color.
You're sellin' but I'm not buyin'. I've lived around non-whites my whole entire life and know the difference between people who make a life for themselves and people who find an excuse not to. And, PS, it has nothing to do with their skin color. There are whites just as trashy and no-account as the worst black guy you ever heard of.
Maynard, I've lived on and off in predominantly black neighborhoods my whole life. Some have been filled with very nice, normal people; some have been filled with the dregs of society. The nice, normal people never looked askance at me - they were just my neighbors. The dregs, however, had racism on the brain - EVERYTHING bad happened because they were black. Couldn't possibly be because they stole or did drugs - nope, it was because of their skin color.
You're sellin' but I'm not buyin'. I've lived around non-whites my whole entire life and know the difference between people who make a life for themselves and people who find an excuse not to. And, PS, it has nothing to do with their skin color. There are whites just as trashy and no-account as the worst black guy you ever heard of.