NFL Fans Tuned Out of Games Last Year

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Since when are rights not allowed to be exercised during work hours?

Seriously, just stop. You're going down a 15 year old boy path here that is unbecoming for an adult.

Would your boss allow you to stand up in a meeting and scream that all black people should die and use a bunch of racial slurs? If not, why not? Isn't that curtailing your "free speech"?
 

Wishbone

New Member
Seriously, just stop. You're going down a 15 year old boy path here that is unbecoming for an adult.

Would your boss allow you to stand up in a meeting and scream that all black people should die and use a bunch of racial slurs? If not, why not? Isn't that curtailing your "free speech"?

His Avatar needs to be revoked for fraud.
 

Rommey

Well-Known Member
Since when are rights not allowed to be exercised during work hours? Was there something in his contract that says he's not allowed to do so?
Do you get to exercise your rights at your place of employment? Do you get to espouse your religious or political views to your customers or fellow employees during working hours? Sure there will likely always be some office talk on a variety of subjects amongst workers, but those conversations shouldn't spill over and involve customers.

As for contractual requirements...I think the standard sports contract have language essentially discussing conduct detrimental to the team. It's probably pretty wide open for interpretation so something like kneeling during the anthem could be something the team (if it chose to) might consider to be detrimental. Its obvious the 49ers either endorse his actions or didn't think they were detrimental to their team.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
A thing forgotten about that whole 1st amendment right is that there might be consequences for your exercising it.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Spoken like a true.... someone that has never served their country in uniform OR held a job where you are constantly viewed as the face of an organization.

They should have dropped his azz the first time he did it but I am sure Goodell was consulted and didn't want a lawsuit!!

Why didn't they drop him then? The 49ers organization didn't call you for your input?

His bosses (coach and GM) allowed this to go on. He didn't allow it to affect the game itself. He wasn't kneeling during huddles, he wasn't stopping the game to make a statement. He used his personal twitter (you know, the same thing Trump is doing) to make his statements. He used his time with the media to make statements. He didn't do anything to change how the game is played.

You want to blame someone/something? Blame the media. Blame a body of people/entities who were so enamored with his story that they wouldn't stop reporting on it 24/7.

If you start politicking at your job, you're not working for your employer, the company or organization you are representing, and you are subject to punitive measures.

Are you really not capable of seeing that?

He kneeled during the anthem. He used personal social media accounts, and his personal time with the media to state what he believes in.

Had he come out and said "The state of California has some of the worst gun laws in the nation" all you same people would be loving him. But since his stance isn't one you agree with, he's the bad guy who isn't allowed to have any sort of identity outside of simply being a football player.

Oh boo hoo hoo. #### him. He was supposed to be doing a job and went out of his way to offend and run off the customers. Would your boss allow that?

What he does on his own time is his business; what he does at work reflects on his employer.

What part of his job wasn't he doing? Was he not showing up at practice? Refusing to be apart of the team? Refusing to throw the ball?

Really? You've never been drug tested to get a job?

Nope. Never.

Kapernick was though. It was part of the contract one signs with their employer. Was there some part of his contract that said he wasn't allowed to kneel during the national anthem?

Exercising your right on your own time and place of business is of your own choosing. Exercising your right while representing someone else is not exactly the best thing to do. Are you allowed to do anything you damned well pleased at your place of employment in the name of exercising your right? Probably not.

1. Goodell should have met with him and explained that he was affecting the image of the NFL and the NFL wasn't his personal soapbox.
2. Goodell should have gone to all of the networks and told them not to show any players exercising their right. They don't show the idiots that run onto the field during the game so as to not give that person their "15 minutes of fame"...why should the NFL highlight these players and give them a stage.
3. If I were the coach, I would have said "you want to kneel during the anthem, then you have to kneel for the entire game...and kneel for the entire practices".
4. If I were the GM, I would have removed him from the active roster as to not further the distraction.

So now we've gone from kneeling to "doing anything you damn well please"? C'mon. Propping up strawmen and wild comparisons only lessens the argument.

The thing is, you aren't the coach. You aren't the GM. You aren't in any position to do anything about Kapernick other than not watch their games or not buy his merchandise. That's how a free marklet system works in a country where people have freedoms. I don't have to like what someone says or does. When I don't like it, I don't encourage it by feeding ratings or buying merchandise.

Its amazing how many of these leftist loons have never worked for anyone.

It's amazing how much you think you know.

Seriously, just stop. You're going down a 15 year old boy path here that is unbecoming for an adult.

Would your boss allow you to stand up in a meeting and scream that all black people should die and use a bunch of racial slurs? If not, why not? Isn't that curtailing your "free speech"?

The ole' "15 year old" schtick again? You know, just because you don't agree with me or others doesn't mean you have to hurl insults.

"This argument isn't one I agree with, so I'm going to simply call it and you stupid. I'm going to take the imaginary high road by placing you beneath me in my own mind."

Speaking of dumb ass arguments, did Kaeprnick do what you just said?

Regardless, I've certainly made my personal feelings known during meetings and interactions with other employees. They may not agree with me, and I may not agree with them, but as I've said to them, "I say this because I feel this company values and respects individual employee's beliefs and views.", but I'm not about to compare Kapernick to someone standing up in a meeting talking about how black people should die and racial slurs. That's a completely ridiculous comparison and surprising coming from someone who consistely likes to point out the ####tyness of other people's arguments.

His Avatar needs to be revoked for fraud.

Yea, because Libertarians totally don't believe in free speech. :rolleyes:

Do you get to exercise your rights at your place of employment? Do you get to espouse your religious or political views to your customers or fellow employees during working hours? Sure there will likely always be some office talk on a variety of subjects amongst workers, but those conversations shouldn't spill over and involve customers.

As for contractual requirements...I think the standard sports contract have language essentially discussing conduct detrimental to the team. It's probably pretty wide open for interpretation so something like kneeling during the anthem could be something the team (if it chose to) might consider to be detrimental. Its obvious the 49ers either endorse his actions or didn't think they were detrimental to their team.

See above.

Your last statement sums it up. The people in charge of making the decisions for the 49ers apparently value freedom of speech more than the handfull of "freedom lovers" here in little ole' southern mer'land.

A thing forgotten about that whole 1st amendment right is that there might be consequences for your exercising it.

That's the beauty of this country, ain't it?
 

Toxick

Splat
He's still an American and last I checked no job is allowed to remove your rights. You and I may not agree with his position(s), but I still believe he has rights as an American citizen


Well, what about the rights of the team owners, and the NFL? Do they not have the right to decide what values they want their brand to project? Any team that he signs up with, he will be a huge part of the franchise. Even if he's a benchwarmer, at this point, the spotlight would be directly on that beachball sized head of his. That being the case, it is absolutely the team's (and the NFL's) prerogative to tolerate that behavior. Or not.


As long as they don't try to stop him outside of work or dictate his behavior while he's not on the clock, they are not "removing his rights". If I showed up at work with a BLM t-shirt, or a MAGA ball-cap, or any politically charged crap like that, I'd be sent home to change. And if I refused, I'd politely be invited to go outside, take a flying #### at a rolling doughnut, and never come back.

And rightly so.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
What part of his job wasn't he doing? Was he not showing up at practice? Refusing to be apart of the team? Refusing to throw the ball?

Insulting and alienating the customers is usually considered a firing offense.

The ole' "15 year old" schtick again? You know, just because you don't agree with me or others doesn't mean you have to hurl insults.

I gotta call 'em as I see 'em. Don't act like an immature ass and I won't call you one. Deal?

Speaking of dumb ass arguments, did Kaeprnick do what you just said?

Free speech isn't just for speech you agree with. Kaepernick hates America and hates white people; what about someone who hates black people? Or Asian people? Or Muslim people? Don't they have "free speech" too?

It's a juvenile argument to go, "Oh, well that's ridiculous," just because you agree with one side and not the other, when it's the exact same thing. Replace "white" with "black" in any racial diatribe; if it sounds racist and offensive to you, then it was racist and offensive in its original form.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Chris, what if a player threw up a white power sign, and wore KKK insignia on his uniform? Still okay? Still just "free speech"?

How about if he encouraged young kids to do the same because he's their hero, so now we have them throwing up KKK signs during high school football games? Still okay?

If "white power" is racist, so is "black power".
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Well, what about the rights of the team owners, and the NFL? Do they not have the right to decide what values they want their brand to project? Any team that he signs up with, he will be a huge part of the franchise. Even if he's a benchwarmer, at this point, the spotlight would be directly on that beachball sized head of his. That being the case, it is absolutely the team's (and the NFL's) prerogative to tolerate that behavior. Or not.


As long as they don't try to stop him outside of work or dictate his behavior while he's not on the clock, they are not "removing his rights". If I showed up at work with a BLM t-shirt, or a MAGA ball-cap, or any politically charged crap like that, I'd be sent home to change. And if I refused, I'd politely be invited to go outside, take a flying #### at a rolling doughnut, and never come back.

And rightly so.

The rights of the owners and the NFL are on display with every game. After every owners meeting, and in every NFL contract. You're also right that the spotlight would likely be on them (see my comment about the media), which is likely why he's still a FA.

Had he broken any of them, he'd be fired, but to my knowledge, there's no requirement to stand for the anthem by the NFL.

Again, and not sure why I have to continually post this to every hyptothetical you all can come up with, but he wasn't fired. All this "Well, if I do this, or did that, I'd be fired" is pointless.

Insulting and alienating the customers is usually considered a firing offense.

And in this case, wasn't. Continually talking about won't change the past.

I gotta call 'em as I see 'em. Don't act like an immature ass and I won't call you one. Deal?

Stay consistent with calling out immature asses, and I'll believe you. Until then, I'll believe you only do it to people and arguments you simply disagree with.

We both know I wasn't being an ass or immature. Especially when compared to some of the #### that comes from other's keyboards.


Free speech isn't just for speech you agree with. Kaepernick hates America and hates white people; what about someone who hates black people? Or Asian people? Or Muslim people? Don't they have "free speech" too?

"Free speech isn't just for speech you agree with" Is there some sort of reason you and others need to point this out in a thread where I'm defending someone's right to free speech? One who's message and means of going about it I disagree with?

Yes. They all have free speech. Living in a Democracy means I don't have to listen to them, nor does it mean I am forced to listen to it.

Were you forced to watch ESPN or 49ers games?


It's a juvenile argument to go, "Oh, well that's ridiculous," just because you agree with one side and not the other, when it's the exact same thing. Replace "white" with "black" in any racial diatribe; if it sounds racist and offensive to you, then it was racist and offensive in its original form.

Replace black with "unicorn" for all I care. Doesn't change my mind and most people view it as nonsense. Continually talking about it and discussing it years later accomplishes what? Making a thread about it because a whopping 3% of poll responders said that was reason accomplishes what?

Chris, what if a player threw up a white power sign, and wore KKK insignia on his uniform? Still okay? Still just "free speech"?

How about if he encouraged young kids to do the same because he's their hero, so now we have them throwing up KKK signs during high school football games? Still okay?

If "white power" is racist, so is "black power".

YES. Come up with some other wild ass hypotheticals and I'll STILL agree it's free speech. (Remember, just a few posts ago you said: "Free speech isn't just for speech you agree with"?)

And simply because I feel like I need to spell it out for some of you,
THIS DOES NOT MEAN I AGREE WITH THE SPEECH.

Let me repeat that, THIS DOES NOT MEAN I AGREE WITH THE SPEECH.

I simply agree with freedom of speech. I agree with our system of government and founding documents that allow us to speech our individual minds, not just our collective ones. Yes, racism is racism. Groundbreaking observation, Vrai. That doesn't mean I have to accept it, or that I'm a racist for believing those racists have the same freedoms as everyone else.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
I simply agree with freedom of speech. I agree with our system of government and founding documents that allow us to speech our individual minds, not just our collective ones.



YOU do not have a RIGHT to free speech on your employers time ....

Freedom of Speech, is standing on the street corner speaking out against the Gov.
 

Toxick

Splat
The rights of the owners and the NFL are on display with every game. After every owners meeting, and in every NFL contract. You're also right that the spotlight would likely be on them (see my comment about the media), which is likely why he's still a FA.

Had he broken any of them, he'd be fired, but to my knowledge, there's no requirement to stand for the anthem by the NFL.

And to my knowledge there's no requirement that a team has to abide some behavior that they don't like - whether it's a rule or not.


You're the one who's talking about "rights", and how CK's "rights" are being trampled.
My point is: they're not.




Again, and not sure why I have to continually post this to every hyptothetical you all can come up with, but he wasn't fired. All this "Well, if I do this, or did that, I'd be fired" is pointless.

Then ignore it.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
YOU do not have a RIGHT to free speech on your employers time ....

Freedom of Speech, is standing on the street corner speaking out against the Gov.

I most certainly do have that right.

There may be a contract that dictates or stipulates limitations to that right or others (such as bringing concealed weapons into the office), but to claim outright I don't have the right to free speech at work is asinine.

Freedom of speech is much more than that. I hope you're either being intentionally dense, or facetious, and don't really believe what you just said. Especially considering all your threads on the topic.
http://forums.somd.com/threads/321154-Portland-Tries-to-Stamp-Out-Free-Speech
http://forums.somd.com/threads/320942-Twitter-Co-Founder-Free-Speech-is-a-Problem
http://forums.somd.com/threads/315851-Free-Speech-Only-if-we-agree-with-it
http://forums.somd.com/threads/305620-Donald-Trump-Free-speech-foolish-shut-down-the-internet
http://forums.somd.com/threads/299699-Speech-and-The-GOP
http://forums.somd.com/threads/278934-Speech-is-Free-as-long-as-I-do-not-Object
http://forums.somd.com/threads/306258-Some-Speech-is-more-Special-than-Others-LBGT-School

Here's what you posted just a few weeks ago:

Supreme Court unanimously reaffirms: There is no ‘hate speech’ exception to the First Amendment


From today’s opinion by Justice Samuel Alito (for four justices) in Matal v. Tam, the “Slants” case:

[The idea that the government may restrict] speech expressing ideas that offend … strikes at the heart of the First Amendment. Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.”

Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote separately, also for four justices, but on this point the opinions agreed:

A law found to discriminate based on viewpoint is an “egregious form of content discrimination,” which is “presumptively unconstitutional.” … A law that can be directed against speech found offensive to some portion of the public can be turned against minority and dissenting views to the detriment of all. The First Amendment does not entrust that power to the government’s benevolence. Instead, our reliance must be on the substantial safeguards of free and open discussion in a democratic society.



:killingme

suck it up snowflakes .... you do not get to BAN Speech, just because YOU don't Like it
http://forums.somd.com/threads/321606-Progs-Lose-HATE-Speech-Case?highlight=trump+free+speech
 

Wishbone

New Member
YOU do not have a RIGHT to free speech on your employers time ....

Freedom of Speech, is standing on the street corner speaking out against the Gov.

... And the Government not being able to stop you!

Has nothing whatso####ingever with being a douche on your employers dime or poorly representing them.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
And to my knowledge there's no requirement that a team has to abide some behavior that they don't like - whether it's a rule or not.

You're right, they don't have that requirement.

You're the one who's talking about "rights", and how CK's "rights" are being trampled.
My point is: they're not.

Did I say that? That someone is "trampling" CK's rights? What I said was:
Goodell could have put a stop to Kaepernick et al protests. He knew this was having an effect on viewership, yet he allowed these punks to use NFL time to protest.

Yea, letting Kapernick exercise his First Amendment right, the horror!


Then ignore it.

Goes both ways, no?

All I did was come in here to point out the numbers are small and not a big deal. Then someone said Goddell should have fired Kaepernick for doing nothing technically wrong or against the rules, but only because they didn;t agree with his speech.
 

Toxick

Splat
Did I say that? That someone is "trampling" CK's rights?


Kinda, you did, yeah.

You may not have used the phrase "trampled rights", but you appear to be arguing that spouting out your political views during work is every American's God Given Right, regardless of what your employer has to say about it, and that any retribution or retaliation or consequences are an infringement upon that right.

If that's not what you're saying then perhaps you should rethink your conversational strategy - because that's what I'm getting out of your half of the conversation. And I'm normally as liberty-minded as you are, and I agree with you on most things.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
I but to claim outright I don't have the right to free speech at work is asinine.

I would never claim that. But I would fire you immediately if your exercise of was disruptive, disrespectful, or...quite simply only because it pissed me off..and I CAN do that. All day..any day. ;-)
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Yea, letting Kapernick exercise his First Amendment right, the horror!

You of all people don't know the 1st doesn't apply to private companies. The NFL is a private company. They can shut you up anytime they want. And when it starts affecting their bottom line, they should have. Otherwise, I don't give a hoot what Kap does.
 

Bird Dog

Bird Dog
PREMO Member
If you want a safe space where you don't have to watch someone speak their mind, don't watch 49ers game and/or ignore the stories when they come up.

That's what the OP is about. Letting NFL #######s express their "rights" the customers/fans are tuning out. The NFL is a business not a political forum and if you owned a business and some of your employees outspoken political views were costing you customers you'd fire them in a nano second.
.....but it takes balls, not safe spaces to do that.

BTW you are about as much a Libertarian as I'm a Socialist.
 
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