Plate scanners.......a step too far....?

[GURPS]

Homeland Security to Activate ‘National License Plate Recognition Database’


The details are included in a PDF attachment uploaded yesterday to the Federal Business Opportunities website under a solicitation entitled “National License Plate Recognition Database.”

The system will “track vehicle license plate numbers that pass through cameras or are voluntarily entered into the system from a variety of sources (access control systems, asset recovery specialists, etc.) and uploaded to share with law enforcement” in order to help locate “criminal aliens and absconders.”

In other countries that have activated license plate tracking networks, such as the United Kingdom, political activists have been targeted by having their vehicles added to a “hotlist” after attending protests. One example led to a man being questioned under anti-terror laws after he traveled to take part in an anti-war demonstration.

As the image above illustrates, the cameras are also used by local governments in Australia to keep records of people who violate parking restrictions. Critics of the system in Australia have condemned it as “a Pandora’s box for abuse of power, mistakes and illegal disclosure,” stressing that the technology allows authorities to record “your number plate at a certain time and location,” allowing police to “compile an extraordinary amount of data about you. This includes your name, address, contact details, driving history and licence status.”

 

[glhs837]

Homeland Security to Activate ‘National License Plate Recognition Database’


The details are included in a PDF attachment uploaded yesterday to the Federal Business Opportunities website under a solicitation entitled “National License Plate Recognition Database.”

The system will “track vehicle license plate numbers that pass through cameras or are voluntarily entered into the system from a variety of sources (access control systems, asset recovery specialists, etc.) and uploaded to share with law enforcement” in order to help locate “criminal aliens and absconders.”

In other countries that have activated license plate tracking networks, such as the United Kingdom, political activists have been targeted by having their vehicles added to a “hotlist” after attending protests. One example led to a man being questioned under anti-terror laws after he traveled to take part in an anti-war demonstration.

As the image above illustrates, the cameras are also used by local governments in Australia to keep records of people who violate parking restrictions. Critics of the system in Australia have condemned it as “a Pandora’s box for abuse of power, mistakes and illegal disclosure,” stressing that the technology allows authorities to record “your number plate at a certain time and location,” allowing police to “compile an extraordinary amount of data about you. This includes your name, address, contact details, driving history and licence status.”

Yeah, I saw this, of course, taken with a salt mine worth of salt, given the source. Did you actually read the request? Looks like it's just ICE, and if it's limited to that.........but still makes me leery, there isnt supposed to be any national database of plate reader data, thats what we have been told, along with "nobody keeps this data for long, so relax, dont worry".

Of course, none of that touches on the idea of anyone keeping this data on otherwise innocent citizens for any length of time. Should be a simple read it, if it doesn't match it, dump it. ACLU looked at I think over 250K results of scans in CA. One you remove the hits for stupid stuff like suspended registration or revoked licence, you end up with like %.04 of all plate reads hitting an alert.

If someone were to propose a system where scanners on police cars read faces and complied a database of who was where that was kept on file "just in case", there would be pitchforks and bonfires. But reporters take the press release and move along smartly.

 

[GURPS]

Yeah, I saw this, of course, taken with a salt mine worth of salt, given the source. Did you actually read the request? Looks like it's just ICE, and if it's limited to that.........but still makes me leery, there isnt supposed to be any national database of plate reader data, thats what we have been told, along with "nobody keeps this data for long, so relax, dont worry".

yep

the preliminary stages of a contract to be awarded, it has not been implemented
not that we are not already tracked by the cell phone in out pockets
people have gotten letters in the mail - hey GLHS what were you doing in that zone of prostitution on 14th st Friday night - because of license plate scanners


or [insert Eastern European Country] texting everyone in a particular location near a public disturbance

the ASSUMPTION you were up to no good, just because of your location ....


Ordering Pizza

 

[glhs837]

yep

the preliminary stages of a contract to be awarded, it has not been implemented
not that we are not already tracked by the cell phone in out pockets
people have gotten letters in the mail - hey GLHS what were you doing in that zone of prostitution on 14th st Friday night - because of license plate scanners


or [insert Eastern European Country] texting everyone in a particular location near a public disturbance

the ASSUMPTION you were up to no good, just because of your location ....


Ordering Pizza

No kidding, I pull into the Quik Mart ON GMR to air up my tires, get pizza at PJs, or park in 84s driveway picking up some pallets, I am developing a pattern of frequenting an area known for drug deals and prostitution.

 

[glhs837]

Dear John: Don't pick up that prostitute, cops warn - Orlando Sentinel

Sanford police said Monday that letters will only be generated when an officer is confident the driver is circling the block looking for a prostitute, and not, for example, driving around lost.

 

[glhs837]

Md. License Plate Recognition Networks Prompt Police State Concerns - Southern Maryland Headline News


And closer to home, bolding mine........

Of the 29 million plates recorded from January to May of that same year, only 0.2 percent - about 1 in 500 - were associated with a crime, suspicion of a crime, or minor registration issues.

Of that 0.2 percent, a staggering 97% were related to revoked registration or violation of Maryland's Vehicle Emission Inspection Program, according to law enforcement documents obtained by the ACLU through a public records request.

In simpler terms, for every million plate reads in Maryland, only 47 were potentially associated with more serious crimes these recording systems were designed to prevent - including locating stolen vehicles and identifying persons of interest. The rest of the matched reads, known as "hits," were simple, non-violent violations.

 

[General Lee]

^^

Don't think that the data scanned isn't held in a database to go back and research later.

 

[glhs837]

^^

Don't think that the data scanned isn't held in a database to go back and research later.

You read the linked article, right? Talks to that point some.

 

[BernieP]

Dear John: Don't pick up that prostitute, cops warn - Orlando Sentinel

you can see how this might play out badly.
Wife takes husband's car and makes a wrong turn.
Few weeks later letter comes in the mail.... and let the fun began.

 

[royhobie]

So, during a recent discussion, it was brought to my attention that the Automated license-plate-recognition systems (ALPRs), which I had thought only checked scanned plates against a list of wanted tags, do much more.

They log each plate with time, date, and GPS location, which data, in some cases, is purged by the locality that did the scanning. However, in MD, they upload it to the state, which apparently keeps a database of this info for further referral.

Maryland to store license-plate scanner data at intel fusion center | Center for Investigative Reporting

Now, heres a funny, in the regular media coverage, any hint of possible misuse is ignored, while the benefits are touted.

plate scanners maryand - Google Search

Sorry, to me, this smacks of officers taking pictures of citizens walking down the street, asking them for ID, them logging that data. We wouldn't abide that, but because this is automated, folks ignore it.

what prompted this thread was the sight of three St Marys cruisers on GMR, one stopped in the center turn lane with scanners going, and one east and west, I assume to be dispatched should a scanner hit occur.

Also saw two more SMCS cars on Rt 235 15 minutes later, I think running red light patrol, which would be the first time I have seen that.

While everybody is busy complaining about NSA, controversal collection of data is right in your own backyard. While locally they "claim" your data will not be kept for an extended period of time, any data transferred to the Feds may be kept as long as the Feds see fit. But, when you use your credit card. The transaction date and time is kept on record. When you get gas, the location, date and time along with the amount of gas you purchased and other data is all recorded. In time, most people will show that they develop a pattern to what they do; the places they go and the time that they do it. Kind of scary to some folks. But, it is what it is. If you want less exposure, use cash. It is safer from cyber theft of your credit information anyone. But, the cameras at gas stations and other places will record where you are and when.

I am not concerned about police recording things as I am with other entities. However, I am concerned of the possibility of someone hacking in to the police data base, and indicating your car is stolen when it really isn't. And if you think most things on line are safe from being hacked in to, guess again. Anything can be hacked in to. It is only a matter of how well a person is trained and how hard the person tries. What I love is that we are told that everything is done due tehir wonderful concern about safety. It is nice of them to be so concerned about us. But, yet they have little to no data they can show to support their cause. It is BS. But, the bottom line is, "it is what it is. It is the times that we live in.

If you have a somewhat of a new cell phone, it has GPS. You can be tracked when it is on. Cameras at banks, shopping centers, businesses, gas stations, intersections "and on your computer" can track you. Satelites can track you if big brother wants to. The bottom line is you are watched quite a bit. And all for your safety. It is so nice that people are concerned about our safety. But, has it really improved safety? Yes or no? And what percentage of crimes have cameras solved that have otherwise gone unsolved, based on the over all collection of data? I am willing to bet the percentage is small. But, this is the price we are willing to pay for the chance it may help protect you or your children.

There are U.S. Supreme Court rulings about 4th Amendment violations (unreasonable search and seizure). The bottom line is if you are in a public domain, you are fair game.

 

[itsrequired]

No kidding, I pull into the Quik Mart ON GMR to air up my tires, get pizza at PJs, or park in 84s driveway picking up some pallets, I am developing a pattern of frequenting an area known for drug deals and prostitution.

Really? Sounds like to me you ar getting pizza at PJs or airing up you tires or getting some pallets. It doesn't sound like you are circling a block looking for hookers.

 

[glhs837]

Really? Sounds like to me you ar getting pizza at PJs or airing up you tires or getting some pallets. It doesn't sound like you are circling a block looking for hookers.

But all that's in the database is locations my car was scanned. And given the amount of time I see the plate scanners on GMR and surroundings compared to when I see them other places, I'll bet the database hits on my car and bike show that area as where I am frequently found. Doesnt say I was to 84 pluckiing pallets, or that I was getting pizza, it just sees my GPS location as the crime hotspot that is Lexington Park.

But my main objection to this tech is that the surveillance attitude "watch everything and everybody, sort it later" is an adversarial sort of relationship I don't want to have with my government. It may be legal, but I don't think it's right. Not to mention the crappy results.

 

[GURPS]

should I open a new thread about DNA Logging ......


FEDS WANT TO TRACK YOUR DNA LIKE A LICENSE PLATE
Seek 'biosignature' spying ability to 'identify, locate specific individuals'

 

[bilbur]

should I open a new thread about DNA Logging ......


FEDS WANT TO TRACK YOUR DNA LIKE A LICENSE PLATE
Seek 'biosignature' spying ability to 'identify, locate specific individuals'

I know it is not popular but I don't have a problem with plate scanners and I think if someone is found to be guilty of a crime they should have to supply a DNA sample. The plat scanners help get all of the unlicensed and uninsured drivers off of publicly owned roads and they may help catch people that have warrants. I have had two family members get into an accident with an uninsured driver and in both cases the damages and hospital bills had to be covered by their own insurance which caused their rates to go up. In one case the guy didn't have a license so he was arrested but that didn't do anything for my family member. They had to take time off of work, they got almost nothing for their totaled car, and the guy that hit them spent one night in jail. If the cops can use these scanners to prevent this from happening to someone else I am all for them.

 

[itsrequired]

But all that's in the database is locations my car was scanned. And given the amount of time I see the plate scanners on GMR and surroundings compared to when I see them other places, I'll bet the database hits on my car and bike show that area as where I am frequently found. Doesnt say I was to 84 pluckiing pallets, or that I was getting pizza, it just sees my GPS location as the crime hotspot that is Lexington Park.

But my main objection to this tech is that the surveillance attitude "watch everything and everybody, sort it later" is an adversarial sort of relationship I don't want to have with my government. It may be legal, but I don't think it's right. Not to mention the crappy results.

You are pulling one thing out of that article and spinning it to your own use. It isn't plate scanners alone which the officers are relying on to send those letters, it's also the officers observations. The scanners are going to preserve the fact that the vehicle was there so that later, some lying prick can't say the cop got it wrong. It's not watcing everybody. Lets put a bunch of hookers in your neighborhood and lets have the johns driving up and down your road and lets see how advdersarail you want cops to be.

 

[BernieP]

You are pulling one thing out of that article and spinning it to your own use. It isn't plate scanners alone which the officers are relying on to send those letters, it's also the officers observations. The scanners are going to preserve the fact that the vehicle was there so that later, some lying prick can't say the cop got it wrong. It's not watcing everybody. Lets put a bunch of hookers in your neighborhood and lets have the johns driving up and down your road and lets see how advdersarail you want cops to be.

You got one part almost right, it alleges the vehicle was there, not the owner.
Second, you assume the technology is 100% accurate. Sort of like the speed cameras on a freeway that issued tickets to people that were over 1500 miles away - but the camera was "proof" (except the rental agency had it's own proof, the humans that check the vehicle in and out at the airport).

And yes, they are watching everyone, the idea is to "automate" and use traffic cameras. It's even watching you at the donut shop.

 

[glhs837]

I know it is not popular but I don't have a problem with plate scanners and I think if someone is found to be guilty of a crime they should have to supply a DNA sample. The plat scanners help get all of the unlicensed and uninsured drivers off of publicly owned roads and they may help catch people that have warrants. I have had two family members get into an accident with an uninsured driver and in both cases the damages and hospital bills had to be covered by their own insurance which caused their rates to go up. In one case the guy didn't have a license so he was arrested but that didn't do anything for my family member. They had to take time off of work, they got almost nothing for their totaled car, and the guy that hit them spent one night in jail. If the cops can use these scanners to prevent this from happening to someone else I am all for them.

I don't have a problem with tech, used as a tool for law enforcement, what I object to is the building of databases of innocent citizens locations "just in case". using to find cars on a hotlist, sure, I'm actually fine with that. Read and dump if there is no match in the database (wehich database should soley consist of vehicles registered to people with warrants, or even expired insurance, that should be the policy.

Keeping 250,000 records of which only .04% are actually on such a list, and keeping that data for months or years? Sorry, that's the part that kills me. To me, it's the same as taking random citizens fingerprints as they walk around town. We dont do that for a reason, because as a citizen, they govt inst supposed to track you or interfere with your life unless there is a compelling public reason to do so.

 

[itsrequired]

You got one part almost right, it alleges the vehicle was there, not the owner.
Second, you assume the technology is 100% accurate. Sort of like the speed cameras on a freeway that issued tickets to people that were over 1500 miles away - but the camera was "proof" (except the rental agency had it's own proof, the humans that check the vehicle in and out at the airport).

And yes, they are watching everyone, the idea is to "automate" and use traffic cameras. It's even watching you at the donut shop.

So the owner will get to know someone was driving their vehicle in an area where there are a bunch of whores. If you are lending your vehicle to someone, wouldn't you want to know that?

It is accurate. I don't eat at donut shops. Maybe it's watching you at your Nambla meetings?

 

[GURPS]

I know it is not popular but I don't have a problem with plate scanners and I think if someone is found to be guilty of a crime they should have to supply a DNA sample.

really what crimes ? parking tickets, failure to signal a lane change, purse snatching :shrug:

however that was not the supposition of this article - while largly theoretical right now someone wants to research .....

FEDS WANT TO TRACK YOUR DNA LIKE A LICENSE PLATE
Seek 'biosignature' spying ability to 'identify, locate specific individuals'


The goal of this research is to detect – as well as analyze and categorize – unique traits the government can exploit to “identify, locate and track specific individuals or groups of people.”

According to the program’s statement of objectives, “The scope of human-centered [intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, or ISR] research spans the complete range of human performance starting at the individual molecular, cellular, genomic level.”

Documents WND located through routine database research reveal the ability to follow people by detecting “certain characteristics of operational interest” is designed for U.S. military and intelligence-gathering superiority.

It remains unknown when such capabilities might transition to the realm of domestic counterterrorism or law enforcement operations; however, the feds – through the Air Force Research Lab, or AFRL – are recruiting private-sector assistance in order to make this “biosignature” spying a reality.

Existing ISR systems are “ideal for identifying and tracking entities such as aircraft and vehicles, but are less capable of identifying and tracking the human,” the lab says in a planning document known as a Broad Agency Announcement, or BAA.

The Human-Centered ISR Leveraged Science & Technology Program will seek to develop, with outside help, technologies that the government can use “to identify, locate and track humans of interest within the operational environment,” according to solicitation No. BAA-HPW-RHX-2014-0001.

after the fall of East Germany it was found that Stasi had collected the 'scents' of thousands of persons ...

"The Stasi Had a Giant Smell Register of Dissidents"

How did the Stasi collect these samples?

When they found a piece of graffiti or a flyer then they took a dust cloth, which was usually yellow, and left it for a while lying next to the flyers covered by a protective piece of aluminum foil and then they had their sample. The cloth was then sealed in a pickling jar and stored. If the Stasi later came across a suspect in the process of the investigation, they tried to get a sample from this person as well -- of course, secretly. A trained dog was given the two smells, and if they matched, the Stasi had a concrete name.

How did the Stasi collected samples from people secretly?
They would often invite someone in for a talk with the police or other officials, for example, and undercover Stasi officers pretending to be police officers or an administrative person were usually present at this meeting. And while the person sat on the chair in the office, they would be, without knowing it, impregnating a yellow cloth hidden under the seat. When this fictive visit was over, the Stasi officer would then put the cloth in the pickle jar -- and they had their sample.

Was scent sampling a method developed by the Stasi?

No, it's a well-known police method used in criminal investigations, but even in the GDR it wasn't allowed to be admitted as evidence and that's why the samples were often collected secretly instead of openly. The problem is not with scent profiling as such, but rather with collecting scents as a precautionary measure in case they can eventually be used in the future. This is what the Stasi did -- they had a giant scent register of dissidents. They really tried to have a sample of everyone who potentially could have said something critical of the state

 

[bilbur]

really what crimes ? parking tickets, failure to signal a lane change, purse snatching :shrug:

however that was not the supposition of this article - while largly theoretical right now someone wants to research .....




after the fall of East Germany it was found that Stasi had collected the 'scents' of thousands of persons ...

For the most part you are not taken to the station for parking tickets or failure to signal a lane change but purse snatching, absolutely, as long as they are found guilty. I was always taught that if a person is arrested and put into jail or prison then they loose all of their rights so the after trial booking process should include a DNA sample. I know this is a pipe dream because prisoners now seem to have more rights than I do.