Sheriff Cameron struck by firetruck

[This_person]

Sure go for it just get your checkbooks out and don't complain about the tax increases to go along with it. I am sure most of the VFD's down in SOMD would love to be paid as full time paid fire fighters, EMT's and medics, get retirement full health care and benefits. Also saves them that PIA full time job many of them have now and volunteer Be in there on their time off to do this. By the way all the volunteers down here in Calvert Co. that i work with are professionals and in all the other counties and have the same certifications that paid firefighters have, That includes Fire Fighter, EMT, Paramedic, Apparatus driver, they are all certified to do their job. As a matter of fact i know some paid fire fighters in other places, volunteer in Calvert and i am sure st. Mary's. Like i said all it takes is money, much money, and the citizens can prepare to pay it. I salute all our volunteers and think they do a great job. JMHO

Did you read what I said about incremental change, with day shift-only in high population areas?

There are ways to improve without being stupid or inefficient or cost-prohibitive.

 

[officeguy]

The reason to go to 'paid volunteers' tends to be call volume and availability of volunteers, not so much an issue of skills.

 

[This_person]

The reason to go to 'paid volunteers' tends to be call volume and availability of volunteers, not so much an issue of skills.

I would say both, but the main thing I see and hear frequently is that we are always needing more volunteers because we don't have enough

 

[TimTheToolMan]

The reason to go to 'paid volunteers' tends to be call volume and availability of volunteers, not so much an issue of skills.

The skill set is the same, volunteer or paid. For example, a volunteer or paid EMT still must complete the same 160 hour training program and must recertify every 3 years.

 

[officeguy]

The skill set is the same, volunteer or paid. For example, a volunteer or paid EMT still must complete the same 160 hour training program and must recertify every 3 years.

I do believe that there is only a very limited number of true volunteer paramedics (iow people who have a different career as their bread-job, not military/city paramedics who volunteer at their local company). The time committent to rise to that level of training is considerable and staffing an ALS service with all volunteers (like Calvert does) must be quite a challenge.

 

[TimTheToolMan]

I do believe that there is only a very limited number of true volunteer paramedics (iow people who have a different career as their bread-job, not military/city paramedics who volunteer at their local company). The time committent to rise to that level of training is considerable and staffing an ALS service with all volunteers (like Calvert does) must be quite a challenge.[/QUOTE

That is true, most of the providers that have completed the requirements to be certified as a Paramedic in this area are paid paramedics in other areas (Charles County, DCFD, PGFD, etc.)

 

[tblwdc]

You do it incrementally. Start with dayshift for the larger areas, when the volunteers are less available. Stop people living in the firehouses. Stop the tax breaks for the volunteers, or reduce it. Share turnout gear, having just enough for a shift at a time, with the removable name pieces available - or, just have all the volunteer gear labeled "volunteer", so everyone can share based on sizes. Stop the practice of taking the command vehicle to work, it stays at the firehouse. Stop the practice of taking the truck/engine/ambulance to Panera for a meal.

Slowly, over time, the savings will help pay for going beyond just the dayshift, until we have a professional emergency service.

The other option, of course, is to share the cost by having some of the police force go volunteer. Because, certainly if emergency services are better of volunteer, then we should expect our police force to do the same, right? If it makes sense for one service, why not others?

So if you stop the command vehicle going to work and the Chief then quits volunteering and the other volunteers see how they are going to be treated because you want the "professional" in there, how are you going to be able to do this incrementally if you have no volunteers to fill the gaps? I know I would leave if I saw my services being treated in a manner which you felt someone else was better because you were offering them a paycheck.

Many of your volunteers are paid fire fighters in other places. While I think this guy should have been given a ticket, I think the way people are talking about volunteers is terrible.

Sure make the police department volunteer. The only problem with that is you can't fill the vacancies now, I'm not sure why you think you'd get people to volunteer. Then comes the part of passing the polygraph, background and police academy.

 

[mdff21]

Did you read what I said about incremental change, with day shift-only in high population areas?

How many day shift positions would you put in a station? Minimum manning for an engine is 3, minimum manning for a truck is 4 in most jurisdictions. Are you going to hire staff for engine and truck for those stations that have both? Not much use hiring for the engine and have them respond on that and not have a truck respond with the ladders and ventilation equipment among the other specialized equipment carried on them or vice versa (truck respond and not the engine). What kind of salaries are you talking about? You can't pay each one the same salary as they have different job descriptions. The crew of 3 on an engine is an officer, driver/operator and firefighter. Base salary in Maryland for firefighters is about 35K to 47K a year, higher positions (drivers and officers) have higher salaries. You are saying daytime, is that 5 days or 7 days a week? What hours are you talking about 7-5 or 7-3? What happens when someone takes a day off...OVERTIME for another. Why are you considering only the high population areas? Don't those that live in Scotland deserve the same service as someone in Wildwood? With the onset of "career or paid" staffing what will they operate? Are the volunteer fire departments allow someone that they do not control operate their apparatus? Will the county now have to supply fire apparatus for the career personnel? An engine that fights the fire and carries water and hose cost about 400 to 500 thousand each. A ladder truck costs in the area of 1 million. Also with the onset of "career" staffing, you will need supervisors, not only in the station (captains, lieutenants) but someone to oversee the program (county chief, assistant chiefs, deputy chiefs). Now that you have the fire service covered, what about the EMS service. A paramedics salary is in the area of 57K per year.

 

[This_person]

So if you stop the command vehicle going to work and the Chief then quits volunteering and the other volunteers see how they are going to be treated because you want the "professional" in there, how are you going to be able to do this incrementally if you have no volunteers to fill the gaps? I know I would leave if I saw my services being treated in a manner which you felt someone else was better because you were offering them a paycheck.

Many of your volunteers are paid fire fighters in other places. While I think this guy should have been given a ticket, I think the way people are talking about volunteers is terrible.

Sure make the police department volunteer. The only problem with that is you can't fill the vacancies now, I'm not sure why you think you'd get people to volunteer. Then comes the part of passing the polygraph, background and police academy.

Are you suggesting that the volunteers are so shallow that the only reason they volunteer is for perks like use of vehicles and praise?

I have a much higher opinion of them than that. I think that if the command vehicle has to be with the on-shift leader they would be smart enough to understand that without taking their proverbial ball and going home like a child.

The comments about police were in jest.

 

[This_person]

How many day shift positions would you put in a station? Minimum manning for an engine is 3, minimum manning for a truck is 4 in most jurisdictions. Are you going to hire staff for engine and truck for those stations that have both? Not much use hiring for the engine and have them respond on that and not have a truck respond with the ladders and ventilation equipment among the other specialized equipment carried on them or vice versa (truck respond and not the engine). What kind of salaries are you talking about? You can't pay each one the same salary as they have different job descriptions. The crew of 3 on an engine is an officer, driver/operator and firefighter. Base salary in Maryland for firefighters is about 35K to 47K a year, higher positions (drivers and officers) have higher salaries. You are saying daytime, is that 5 days or 7 days a week? What hours are you talking about 7-5 or 7-3? What happens when someone takes a day off...OVERTIME for another. Why are you considering only the high population areas? Don't those that live in Scotland deserve the same service as someone in Wildwood? With the onset of "career or paid" staffing what will they operate? Are the volunteer fire departments allow someone that they do not control operate their apparatus? Will the county now have to supply fire apparatus for the career personnel? An engine that fights the fire and carries water and hose cost about 400 to 500 thousand each. A ladder truck costs in the area of 1 million. Also with the onset of "career" staffing, you will need supervisors, not only in the station (captains, lieutenants) but someone to oversee the program (county chief, assistant chiefs, deputy chiefs). Now that you have the fire service covered, what about the EMS service. A paramedics salary is in the area of 57K per year.

Sounds like a lot of great detail. Are you offering your services to the county commissioners to generate a detailed proposal?

Last I checked, the volunteers don't own their equipment.

High population areas were my suggestion because they are more likely to need services while also being less likely to be fully staffed with sufficient numbers of volunteers.

 

[officeguy]

So if you stop the command vehicle going to work and the Chief then quits volunteering and the other volunteers see how they are going to be treated because you want the "professional" in there, how are you going to be able to do this incrementally if you have no volunteers to fill the gaps? I know I would leave if I saw my services being treated in a manner which you felt someone else was better because you were offering them a paycheck.

All the things he mentions that he wants to abolish cost the department next to nothing. To keep around an extra take-home vehicle for the chief or assistant chief probably costs less in a year than hiring a career FF would cost per week. If you dont provide a vehicle, you need to pay him mileage. The young guys sleeping in the station bunkhouse cost the department nothing, they are there to be able to provide the shortest possible response time. An VFD or EMS vehicle with a crew at Panera is usually ready to go on a call. The gallon of diesel saved by keeping them from driving down to Panera is not going to pay for transition to a career department.

PG county (pop 980k) has a fire budget of $148mil. Anne Arundel (pop 550k) spends about $102mil. Both have a mix of career departments and a couple of volunteer companies. Even if STM could provide career service at the same per capita cost as those larger counties (doubtful given the rural nature), it would be about 15-20mil per year. Right now, St Marys puts 2.7mil towards fire service. To go to career would require a head tax of $100-$150 per man woman and child. I think for the time being, we are better off with the $17 surcharge on a car registration, a couple of $$ local fire tax and the occasional check in the booth at the firehouse.

Sure make the police department volunteer. The only problem with that is you can't fill the vacancies now, I'm not sure why you think you'd get people to volunteer. Then comes the part of passing the polygraph, background and police academy.

It is not common around here, but in the flatter parts of the country, many rural sheriffs departments have reservists. Depending on their qualifications, they may have a full license with powers of arrest, if they dont have the full certification they may relieve the full deputies with tasks like traffic control or guarding a prisoner in the hospital ER. Of course, there are downsides to having people with limited training in law enforcement, most glaring example was the 71 year old reserve deputy in Tulsa who inadvertently shot a guy instead of applying a Taser. But yes, this can be done too.

 

[This_person]

All the things he mentions that he wants to abolish cost the department next to nothing. To keep around an extra take-home vehicle for the chief or assistant chief probably costs less in a year than hiring a career FF would cost per week. If you dont provide a vehicle, you need to pay him mileage. The young guys sleeping in the station bunkhouse cost the department nothing, they are there to be able to provide the shortest possible response time. An VFD or EMS vehicle with a crew at Panera is usually ready to go on a call. The gallon of diesel saved by keeping them from driving down to Panera is not going to pay for transition to a career department.

PG county (pop 980k) has a fire budget of $148mil. Anne Arundel (pop 550k) spends about $102mil. Both have a mix of career departments and a couple of volunteer companies. Even if STM could provide career service at the same per capita cost as those larger counties (doubtful given the rural nature), it would be about 15-20mil per year. Right now, St Marys puts 2.7mil towards fire service. To go to career would require a head tax of $100-$150 per man woman and child. I think for the time being, we are better off with the $17 surcharge on a car registration, a couple of $$ local fire tax and the occasional check in the booth at the firehouse.



It is not common around here, but in the flatter parts of the country, many rural sheriffs departments have reservists. Depending on their qualifications, they may have a full license with powers of arrest, if they dont have the full certification they may relieve the full deputies with tasks like traffic control or guarding a prisoner in the hospital ER. Of course, there are downsides to having people with limited training in law enforcement, most glaring example was the 71 year old reserve deputy in Tulsa who inadvertently shot a guy instead of applying a Taser. But yes, this can be done too.

We pay volunteers mileage? And tax breaks? And training?

How many volunteers are getting the (what is it, $3,000/year off the tax bill?) tax break? If we take those off, I'll bet that would easily cover at least 10% of the cost of a paid service. If we only had to train the number of people required to run each house, how much would we save annually in training cost? How much would we save in advertising for volunteers?

Would it cover the full cost? Of course not. Would it raise taxes by 68% to go to a paid service? Of course not.

It all depends on what you want. If you want a constant turnover, and putting your home and business in the hands of people who do their thing as a hobby on the side, then you stay volunteer. If you want a service filled with people who so love the idea of doing their job that they made it their profession, then you go paid. You know the old adage, you get what you pay for.

 

[This_person]

All the things he mentions that he wants to abolish cost the department next to nothing. To keep around an extra take-home vehicle for the chief or assistant chief probably costs less in a year than hiring a career FF would cost per week. If you dont provide a vehicle, you need to pay him mileage. The young guys sleeping in the station bunkhouse cost the department nothing, they are there to be able to provide the shortest possible response time. An VFD or EMS vehicle with a crew at Panera is usually ready to go on a call. The gallon of diesel saved by keeping them from driving down to Panera is not going to pay for transition to a career department.

PG county (pop 980k) has a fire budget of $148mil. Anne Arundel (pop 550k) spends about $102mil. Both have a mix of career departments and a couple of volunteer companies. Even if STM could provide career service at the same per capita cost as those larger counties (doubtful given the rural nature), it would be about 15-20mil per year. Right now, St Marys puts 2.7mil towards fire service. To go to career would require a head tax of $100-$150 per man woman and child. I think for the time being, we are better off with the $17 surcharge on a car registration, a couple of $$ local fire tax and the occasional check in the booth at the firehouse.



It is not common around here, but in the flatter parts of the country, many rural sheriffs departments have reservists. Depending on their qualifications, they may have a full license with powers of arrest, if they dont have the full certification they may relieve the full deputies with tasks like traffic control or guarding a prisoner in the hospital ER. Of course, there are downsides to having people with limited training in law enforcement, most glaring example was the 71 year old reserve deputy in Tulsa who inadvertently shot a guy instead of applying a Taser. But yes, this can be done too.

Just out of curiosity, if a non-paying tenant of the taxpayers, a live-in at the firehouse, gets injured, who pays the cost of that? Isn't having people living rent-free a liability on the taxpayer?

 

[NTNG]

I do believe that there is only a very limited number of true volunteer paramedics (iow people who have a different career as their bread-job, not military/city paramedics who volunteer at their local company). The time committent to rise to that level of training is considerable and staffing an ALS service with all volunteers (like Calvert does) must be quite a challenge.[/QUOTE

That is true, most of the providers that have completed the requirements to be certified as a Paramedic in this area are paid paramedics in other areas (Charles County, DCFD, PGFD, etc.)

As a volunteer Paramedic with the local ALS unit, I can tell you that you are incorrect. The majority of our Paramedics are volunteers who work full time jobs, myself included. We do have paid paramedics who work in those jurisdictions, and live in St. Mary's, that volunteer to run with us.

 

[officeguy]

As a volunteer Paramedic with the local ALS unit, I can tell you that you are incorrect. The majority of our Paramedics are volunteers who work full time jobs, myself included. We do have paid paramedics who work in those jurisdictions, and live in St. Mary's, that volunteer to run with us.

Yes, you exist, I didn't doubt that. Few can commit almost two years worth of training for a pure volunteer job and this is one area where it frequently becomes necessary to go to paid staff to provide 24/7 coverage that fulfills whatever requirements the jurisdiction has.

 

[officeguy]

How many volunteers are getting the (what is it, $3,000/year off the tax bill?) tax break?

After 3 years of service you can deduct $3500. For the most part, this is money the state gives up. If a county went career, it's not like they would get that money. Either way, small potatoes compared with the salary of a career firefighter.

If we only had to train the number of people required to run each house, how much would we save annually in training cost?

You do understand that most of the training at the station-house level is provided by other volunteers. The courses through MFRI are paid for by the state out of the surcharge on motor vehicle registrations. The students can deduct their unreimbursed travel expenses from their taxable income, no different from someone volunteering for their church or a boyscout council. The county pays little to nothing for that training.

How much would we save in advertising for volunteers?

A couple of printed banners put next to the public right of way, some ads in local papers that are often provided at a discounted rate. You really think this amounts to much ?

Would it cover the full cost? Of course not. Would it raise taxes by 68% to go to a paid service? Of course not.

If St Marys provided career service with the same cost structure as Anne Arundel, it would cost 20mil instead of the current 2.7mil. 16mil to address your feelings sounds rather expensive.

It all depends on what you want. If you want a constant turnover, and putting your home and business in the hands of people who do their thing as a hobby on the side, then you stay volunteer.

There is very little turnover in volunteer companies. Yes, people come and go at the junior levels, but once people have 3-5 years in, the crew remains quite stable. Smaller agencies that have gone career have found a high turnover because once people have a year of employment as professional on their CV, they go and test for city and suburban departments that are unionized and pay well.

If you want a service filled with people who so love the idea of doing their job that they made it their profession, then you go paid. You know the old adage, you get what you pay for.

In this case you dont. In fire protection, you pay people a good salary to do nothing 90% of the time. This is not like police that moves from call to call and does traffic enforcement in between.

 

[officeguy]

Just out of curiosity, if a non-paying tenant of the taxpayers, a live-in at the firehouse, gets injured, who pays the cost of that? Isn't having people living rent-free a liability on the taxpayer?

The firehouses are owned by the fire companies. Paid for with money gathered by fundraising. I would think that they carry hazard insurance on the building just like anyone else. The workmans comp risk with firefighters is mostly related to them operating/riding emergency vehicles. I dont think 'slip&fall' risk in the firehall is a major component of workmans comp premiums.

 

[Misfit]

How'd you like to be the dumbass who ran over the Sheriff?

I squashed the sheriff…

 

[This_person]

After 3 years of service you can deduct $3500. For the most part, this is money the state gives up. If a county went career, it's not like they would get that money. Either way, small potatoes compared with the salary of a career firefighter.

So, the state would have more money, based on not giving up $3500/volunteer, but there's not a reason to believe the county (with a new cost for the county and more income to the state) would not recoup some of that? That seems unlikely to be true.

By the way, how many volunteers get that $3500? How many professionals would be necessary? I'm thinking that if there were even 10/1 ratio of volunteers that get the tax break to paid members, that would go an awfully long way to paying much of their salary. And, given that the volunteers must be grossly over-numbered compared to how many paid members would be necessary, that doesn't seem like much of a stretch to the imagination.

You do understand that most of the training at the station-house level is provided by other volunteers.

Yes. I do understand that. Are you suggesting there is no cost?

The courses through MFRI are paid for by the state out of the surcharge on motor vehicle registrations. The students can deduct their unreimbursed travel expenses from their taxable income, no different from someone volunteering for their church or a boyscout council. The county pays little to nothing for that training.

And, what does that cost? Times how many volunteers as compared to the training that would be provided by those paid to be, in your words, doing nothing 90% of the time. Not really much of a change there, so the off-site training is where there would be a difference. Well, that, and the number of people needing trained. I wonder if it costs more to train 143 people or, let's say, 50 people (using BDVFD as an example).

A couple of printed banners put next to the public right of way, some ads in local papers that are often provided at a discounted rate. You really think this amounts to much?

More than zero? Yes. Hundreds of millions? No.

If St Marys provided career service with the same cost structure as Anne Arundel, it would cost 20mil instead of the current 2.7mil. 16mil to address your feelings sounds rather expensive.

There are many issues with your statement. Where does the $20M come from? Where does the $2.7M come from? Are we comparing apples and apples, or does one assume only some costs while the other assumes other costs? Much of the conversation involved here generally is exactly what you're describing - the $3500/year is not a cost to the county, but it is a cost to the taxpayer writ large. It is very likely that the county would benefit financially towards the pay of professional services that is not considered into this analysis, for example.

There is very little turnover in volunteer companies. Yes, people come and go at the junior levels, but once people have 3-5 years in, the crew remains quite stable. Smaller agencies that have gone career have found a high turnover because once people have a year of employment as professional on their CV, they go and test for city and suburban departments that are unionized and pay well.

So, we would have to be competitive?

In this case you dont. In fire protection, you pay people a good salary to do nothing 90% of the time. This is not like police that moves from call to call and does traffic enforcement in between.

That's insurance, right? I mean, that's not a difference from your car insurance or anything else.

I absolutely think it would cost more for professional services. If I am coming across to you that I think it would not cost more, then I am trying now to ensure you realize what I am thinking.

 

[This_person]

The firehouses are owned by the fire companies. Paid for with money gathered by fundraising. I would think that they carry hazard insurance on the building just like anyone else. The workmans comp risk with firefighters is mostly related to them operating/riding emergency vehicles. I dont think 'slip&fall' risk in the firehall is a major component of workmans comp premiums.

Here, I thought there was an assessment on property taxes - pennies on the dollar to be sure, but there nonetheless - that funds things like first stations. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Like, the budget of the county or something.