Sheriff Cameron struck by firetruck

officeguy

Well-Known Member
So, the state would have more money, based on not giving up $3500/volunteer, but there's not a reason to believe the county (with a new cost for the county and more income to the state) would not recoup some of that? That seems unlikely to be true.

That $3750 goes into the section 'subtractions from income' on the tax return, it is not a refundable tax credit. Depending on your tax bracket, that credit may be worth $300 or $350 on your state income tax bill. That wont even pay for the loaded cost on a 8hr shift for a career FF.

By the way, how many volunteers get that $3500? How many professionals would be necessary? I'm thinking that if there were even 10/1 ratio of volunteers that get the tax break to paid members, that would go an awfully long way to paying much of their salary.

You seem to be hung up on 10:1 ratio. Not sure where you get that from. It may be true, but remember you have to cover 24/7. Depending on the staffing model, for 3 guys in the station, there are 5 others who are off duty.

One of the reasons you may have that impression is that there tend to be larger numbers of volunteers at any incident compared to a career force. That is because for something like a fire, many volunteer companies respond, not only the one local to the fire. Otoh, by default, career services are stretched thin and a shed on fire will only draw a single pumper and 3 guys, not the whole dog and pony show.

No.There are many issues with your statement. Where does the $20M come from?

I explained it. But here it is again. In the AACo budget, the cost for the fire dept is 102mil. AACo has pretty much 5x the population of St Marys (560k vs 110k, that's 5.09 to be exact). 102mil divided by 5.09 is 20mil. As I said, IF STM was able to provide career service with the same cost structure as AA (a county with dense areas and rural tiers), the cost would be about 20mil. PGCo spends $148mil/year for their fire service, but that covers very densely populated inner ring suburbs where the per-capita cost to provide fire protection is lower (as response times are one of the factors that goes into the cost of fire protection, the per-capita cost in a rural area is higher than in a dense area).

Where does the $2.7M come from?

From the St Marys county budget as the counties contribution to the fire service.

Are we comparing apples and apples, or does one assume only some costs while the other assumes other costs?

Yes, it is an apples to oranges comparison. Right now, the firehouses are paid for by the members and through fundraising. Fire apparatus is paid for by a mix of state grant money, some county contributions and local donations. If the county provided the services with career personnel, they would have to bear most of those costs (they would still get grants from the state for the trucks).

Much of the conversation involved here generally is exactly what you're describing - the $3500/year is not a cost to the county, but it is a cost to the taxpayer writ large.

It is a reduction of the income subject to State and county income tax. The cost to the state/county is closer to $300 per volunteer. I believe there is a little pension contribution for volunteers as well. Believe me, nobody is volunteering for the great financial benefits.

I absolutely think it would cost more for professional services. If I am coming across to you that I think it would not cost more, then I am trying now to ensure you realize what I am thinking.

It would cost a lot more. The current map of fire stations has grown around historic communities, it wasn't laid out using a geographical information system to ensure the most efficient coverage of the county. A new map would have to be created and new stations would have to be built. And buildings and vehicles are the smaller part of the bill. Personnel cost is what drives this. A career FF may get paid 37k entry level wage, the fully loaded cost to the county is far higher than that, more in the range of 60k (pension contribution, healthcare, workmans comp, LTD, employer taxes, paid training etc.). Also, that's an entry level wage, as seniority in the force increases, this will go up. You also need a county fire chief, some captains, fire officers and all this needs to be competitive with jurisdictions further up the road if you dont want to just be the training facility for those departments. Fire tends to have many commuters, the rason VFDs in STM have access to many career personnel is because they already go up to DC or PG to work.

What is more likely is that at some point someone at a busy department like Bay district will look at his schedule for the next month and realize that he won't be able to keep the day shifts staffed because there just aren't enough retirees and community college students to keep the place going. That's when after lots of arguing and back and forth, a couple of guys will be paid a stipend to cover those day shifts. And who knows, maybe one of those days there will be one station staffed by career firefighters with the rest of the county volunteer, but I believe this is a long way off.

Btw. I agree that there is probably some waste and abuse in the volunteer fire company system as it exists in Maryland at this time. Any large organization will have some friction losses. Through the state funding of apparatus, Maryland VFDs (at least the ones in SoMD) tend to have an outsized complement of trucks compared to the number of members who actually show up for calls. Some of the firehouses are quite elaborate castles and a pre-fab steel hall with roller doors would serve the functional needs of a fire department just as well. But again, you have to remember that those are built with lots of donations and represent the pride of their respective communities. They act as community centers, meeting places and venues for anything from weddings to funerals. Just like a local post-office or elementary school, they are part of the glue that keeps rural communities together.
 
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officeguy

Well-Known Member
Here, I thought there was an assessment on property taxes - pennies on the dollar to be sure, but there nonetheless - that funds things like first stations. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Like, the budget of the county or something.

There are some local fire taxing districts to pay for station houses. Not sure how many districts in STM collect that tax. I dont seem to pay it on business property taxes.
 

tblwdc

New Member
If we only had to train the number of people required to run each house, how much would we save annually in training cost? How much would we save in advertising for volunteers?

I don't think it would save anything. It would be replaced by the cost of advertising and testing for the new jobs which by your estimates would cost 90% more than what we are paying now.
 
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