Should Non-Christians celebrate Christmas?

[PsyOps]

No less hypocritical of only finding fault with a non-believer, while ignoring the same exact faults in other Christians.

Nevertheless hypocritical. Then it's settled, Christians are hypocrites and atheists (or whatever mAlice is) are equally hypocrites. How do we ever settle this?

 

[Irish_Eyes]

This is true, but if you look at what I was answering, she was saying that she didn't like it when Christians talk about Christian things.

Actually, I think her point was that she doesn't mind talking to Christians about Christian things, but she dislikes it when they try to shove their beliefs down her throat. It's one thing to have an intelligent conversation and/or debate while respecting that the other person probably wont ever agree with you. You can have a conversation with non christians without trying to convert them and when they still don't want to convert, without getting nasty about it. Unfortunately, that's something that happens all too often(not saying you directly are guilty, but that it happens a LOT), and the fact that it happens as often as it does means that non christians tend to already be prepared for a fight even when it was never intended to go that far.

I personally never try to tell a Christian not to follow their religion, but I will not hesitate to say that I wont follow it and present reasons why. Unfortunately, some Christians tend to react to such by insisting that I WILL go to hell(even though I don't believe such a place exists) and that I WILL have to answer to God. That is, inadvertantly, forcing your beliefs onto the people around you, and tends to make people angry. You'd get angry if a non believer decided to force their views on you, too.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

So, given the context of this conversation - you'd go into a forum to shove your religion down Christians' throats, and then complain if they do likewise?

No... you missed the entire earlier point. I believe it's possible to discuss religion(or a lack of) without either side shoving their beliefs down the other's throat. Once again, you're taking one or two lines from a multiparagraph explanation and using those as a basis for a response instead of taking the ENTIRE posting into account.

 

[PsyOps]

No... you missed the entire earlier point. I believe it's possible to discuss religion(or a lack of) without either side shoving their beliefs down the other's throat. Once again, you're taking one or two lines from a multiparagraph explanation and using those as a basis for a response instead of taking the ENTIRE posting into account.

This shoving down one's throat has always been a bit of a mystery to me. The only way I could shove my faith down your throat is if you opened your mouth and swallowed it. You have to be willing to do so. Otherwise the entire context of this is strictly based on being offended and nothing more.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Actually, I think her point was that she doesn't mind talking to Christians about Christian things, but she dislikes it when they try to shove their beliefs down her throat. It's one thing to have an intelligent conversation and/or debate while respecting that the other person probably wont ever agree with you. You can have a conversation with non christians without trying to convert them and when they still don't want to convert, without getting nasty about it. Unfortunately, that's something that happens all too often(not saying you directly are guilty, but that it happens a LOT), and the fact that it happens as often as it does means that non christians tend to already be prepared for a fight even when it was never intended to go that far.
I personally never try to tell a Christian not to follow their religion, but I will not hesitate to say that I wont follow it and present reasons why. Unfortunately, some Christians tend to react to such by insisting that I WILL go to hell(even though I don't believe such a place exists) and that I WILL have to answer to God. That is, inadvertantly, forcing your beliefs onto the people around you, and tends to make people angry. You'd get angry if a non believer decided to force their views on you, too.

Thank you Miss-Interpreter... but wait just a minute little lady. We tell you the truth and YOU'RE the ones who get mad. If you told me that I was going to Hell I would just tell you that you're wrong. We're the ones who get lit into by you folks. YOU'RE the ones who get upset at what we say. YOU'RE the ones who broadbrush all Christians and make jokes about what we believe.
This primitive lie that we're forcing you to believe a certain way is your way of side stepping a guilty conscience. You haven't seen "forcing something down your throat" yet. Wait until Obama opens the doors to the muslims in this country. Wait until they hold a sword to your throat and tell you believe or die. THEN you can say something "was forced down your throat".
So: Do you now believe what we've told you on here about God, Hell, Jesus, etc??? Of course not! So where's this forcing that you speak of?
If you can't deal with what you're going to hear in here, quit coming in. Personally I'm glad you infidels are in here but I am really sick of your whining. You know it's a religious forum and yet you gripe when religious statements are made to you.
And, BTW, NO "non-believer can force their beliefs on me", dear heart. I'm not as weak & whiney as some of you who come in here. I know the truth and that's why I speak so boldly about it. One day you'll wish you knew it too...

 

[ItalianScallion]

So, given the context of this conversation - you'd go into a forum to shove your religion down Christians' throats, and then complain if they do likewise?

This is the blindness that I speak about. They don't even realize that their unbelief is a religion that they're trying to tell us is true.

No...you missed the entire earlier point. I believe it's possible to discuss religion(or a lack of) without either side shoving their beliefs down the other's throat.

Who "missed the entire point"??? You really have no clue about spiritual issues do you? What are you, 9? You can't even imagine the magnitude of spiritual wars that are going on all around us, that you would say something like that.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Thank you Miss-Interpreter... but wait just a minute little lady. We tell you the truth and YOU'RE the ones who get mad. If you told me that I was going to Hell I would just tell you that you're wrong. We're the ones who get lit into by you folks. YOU'RE the ones who get upset at what we say. YOU'RE the ones who broadbrush all Christians and make jokes about what we believe.

I don't make jokes about what anyone believes. I make jokes about how they approach their beliefs and the beliefs of others. Such as when you go on your little self righteous tirades like the one in this post. I don't have an issue with you believing, but you make yourself sound like a borderline psychotic zealot when you talk the way you are.

Also, for someone who's getting upset over non believers "broadbrushing", you're still using a lot of "you're the ones" and "you alls" to talk about us. Hypocritical much?

What you tell us about your beliefs is what YOU perceive to be the truth. Non believers perceive the truth to be otherwise. What pisses me off and makes me upset about believers is not their beliefs, but their attitudes and the way they approach those who do not agree. When you go on these holier than thou trips like you have been doing since this particular thread started, you practically make my case for me.

This primitive lie that we're forcing you to believe a certain way is your way of side stepping a guilty conscience.

Your words, not mine. Also, way to assume you know anything about what's going on in my head and heart. When did you become omniscient?

You haven't seen "forcing something down your throat" yet. Wait until Obama opens the doors to the muslims in this country. Wait until they hold a sword to your throat and tell you believe or die. THEN you can say something "was forced down your throat".

When the hell did this get political? I really couldn't care less what you think Obama is going to do. You want to talk about that, take it to the politics forums.

So: Do you now believe what we've told you on here about God, Hell, Jesus, etc??? Of course not! So where's this forcing that you speak of?
If you can't deal with what you're going to hear in here, quit coming in.

It sounds more likely to me that YOU are the one who's upset that WE are here, not the other way around. I haven't seen a single believer get onto preachy little rants that come anywhere NEAR what yours are. And the "forcing it down our throats" is a figure of speech. I love that you take things literally when it suits you and interpret what someone says to fit your own views of them at others.

Personally I'm glad you infidels are in here but I am really sick of your whining. You know it's a religious forum and yet you gripe when religious statements are made to you.
And, BTW, NO "non-believer can force their beliefs on me", dear heart. I'm not as weak & whiney as some of you who come in here. I know the truth and that's why I speak so boldly about it. One day you'll wish you knew it too...

Once again(why does it seem like I have to repeat myself with you?), I have no issue with a religious statement being made to me. I expect it, and before the preaching and the close minded, high and mighty tone came in to a lot of the arguments believers were posing, I was having a lovely time simply debating with people who disagreed with my views. What I do have a problem with, however, is the attitude that you and quite a few others like to display in that you take the tone of "I'm better than you" because of what you believe.

This "I'm going to argue and rant and rave and loose any ability to hold a civilized conversation" approach makes you appear not only close minded, but willfully ignorant as well. And you wonder why people have a problem with you? You argue like you're a 10 year old in a shouting contest over which super hero is better, Batman or Superman.

 

[ItalianScallion]

...when you go on your little self righteous tirades like the one in this post. I don't have an issue with you believing, but you make yourself sound like a borderline psychotic zealot when you talk the way you are.

Why thank you my dear! Flattery goes far with me...

Also, for someone who's getting upset over non believers "broadbrushing", you're still using a lot of "you're the ones" and "you alls" to talk about us. Hypocritical much?

Ya know, if the shoe fits....

What you tell us about your beliefs is what YOU perceive to be the truth. Non believers perceive the truth to be otherwise. What pisses me off and makes me upset about believers is not their beliefs, but their attitudes and the way they approach those who do not agree. When you go on these holier than thou trips like you have been doing since this particular thread started, you practically make my case for me.

And YOUR attitude is different...how?
Ever read posts by Nucklesack, mAlice, Beta, just to name a few? Read how they love me with all of their pet names for me...
And remember this Miss Newbie: I've been here doing this for almost 3,000 replies over 3 years. Sure I sound holier than thou (that's sooo original too, btw). Ever wonder why? You guessed it but you just got here so...

Also, way to assume you know anything about what's going on in my head and heart. When did you become omniscient?

Not omniscient my dear; just darn good at what I do...

When the hell did this get political? I really couldn't care less what you think Obama is going to do. You want to talk about that, take it to the politics forums.

Relax darling. Narrow mindedness is not becoming of you...

It sounds more likely to me that YOU are the one who's upset that WE are here, not the other way around.

Do I have to quote myself to you? I said I'm glad you're here.

I haven't seen a single believer get onto preachy little rants that come anywhere NEAR what yours are. And the "forcing it down our throats" is a figure of speech. I love that you take things literally when it suits you and interpret what someone says to fit your own views of them at others.

Awww, you noticed! Thank you soo much!

Once again(why does it seem like I have to repeat myself with you?)

Cause you like me?

I have no issue with a religious statement being made to me. I expect it, and before the preaching and the close minded, high and mighty tone came in to a lot of the arguments believers were posing, I was having a lovely time simply debating with people who disagreed with my views. What I do have a problem with, however, is the attitude that you and quite a few others like to display in that you take the tone of "I'm better than you" because of what you believe. This "I'm going to argue and rant and rave and loose any ability to hold a civilized conversation" approach makes you appear not only close minded, but willfully ignorant as well. And you wonder why people have a problem with you? You argue like you're a 10 year old in a shouting contest over which super hero is better, Batman or Superman.

Spoken like a true newbie. Six months and 200 posts later, you're frustrated.
Where did I say I was better than you my dear? I see it as concern for your well being. Should I lie to you and say: whatever you want to believe is fine? No problem?? Some Christian I'd be.
Why did you reply to me if you were having such a "lovely time"?
No one FORCED you to reply. You can ignore me if you want.
Who has a problem with me? They all love me here.
In the words of Jack Nicholson: "You can't handle the truth" and therein lies the problem.
Have a nice night and sleep well. I'll be back on here tomorrow night after 10:30pm.

 

[mAlice]

Why thank you my dear! Flattery goes far with me...

Ya know, if the shoe fits....

And YOUR attitude is different...how?
Ever read posts by Nucklesack, mAlice, Beta, just to name a few? Read how they love me with all of their pet names for me...
And remember this Miss Newbie: I've been here doing this for almost 3,000 replies over 3 years. Sure I sound holier than thou (that's sooo original too, btw). Ever wonder why? You guessed it but you just got here so...

Not omniscient my dear; just darn good at what I do...

Relax darling. Narrow mindedness is not becoming of you...

Do I have to quote myself to you? I said I'm glad you're here.

Awww, you noticed! Thank you soo much!

Cause you like me?

Spoken like a true newbie. Six months and 200 posts later, you're frustrated.
Where did I say I was better than you my dear? I see it as concern for your well being. Should I lie to you and say: whatever you want to believe is fine? No problem?? Some Christian I'd be.
Why did you reply to me if you were having such a "lovely time"?
No one FORCED you to reply. You can ignore me if you want.
Who has a problem with me? They all love me here.
In the words of Jack Nicholson: "You can't handle the truth" and therein lies the problem.
Have a nice night and sleep well. I'll be back on here tomorrow night after 10:30pm.

A perfect example of how christians are supposed to act.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Of course it's possible. But, you said you'd tell people how you feel freely and completely even if not asked. I think you interpret people doing the same back as shoving it down your throat.

One of us misunderstood the other, but I don't think it was me misunderstanding you.

I didn't mean the comment to say that I'm going around yelling my beliefs(or non beliefs, depending on how you look at it) whenever. I meant more in that sometimes debates and discussions come up. I don't expect Christians to not talk about their beliefs, nor should they expect me to not talk about mine. What should be expected is civil, polite conversation. Not name calling, not insult hurling, etc etc. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

This board is an excellent example. It was asked if non believers should celebrate christmas. I posed my view on it, as did several others. It spawned furtner debate and discussion. Awesome. Cool and groovy. Everything was fine and dandy until it became not a discussion, but an insult and pissing contest.

 

[PsyOps]

A perfect example of how christians are supposed to act.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us how Christians are supposed to act

 

[ItalianScallion]

I didn't mean the comment to say that I'm going around yelling my beliefs(or non beliefs, depending on how you look at it) whenever. I meant more in that sometimes debates and discussions come up. I don't expect Christians to not talk about their beliefs, nor should they expect me to not talk about mine. What should be expected is civil, polite conversation. Not name calling, not insult hurling, etc etc. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.
This board is an excellent example. It was asked if non believers should celebrate christmas. I posed my view on it, as did several others. It spawned furtner debate and discussion. Awesome. Cool and groovy. Everything was fine and dandy until it became not a discussion, but an insult and pissing contest.

We humbly apologize that this isn't Alice in Wonderland for you my dear. I'll speak to Vrai about making this a totally "G" rated forum and anyone that crosses the line will be removed.
Oh btw, welcome to the real world. Apparently someone lied to you about the reality of life. (It's probably because of all those uninsured people).

A perfect example of how christians are supposed to act.

Wow thanks! I never considered myself "a perfect example" but if you say so.

 

[Beta84]

That's not my quote...

it may not be your quote, but it's everything you say and preach. It might as well be. And if you don't like that quote then maybe you should look back and realize what you've been saying.

 

[thatguy]

I mistook your quote for mAlice's. Can't tell one atheist from another these days...
Here's your verses; not that you'd believe them:
John 7 v 21-24
You already know the one against judging hypocritically (Matthew 7 v 1&2)

i neither believe them to be the word of god, nor do i beleive those verses to represent a directive from god for all christians to judge others.

 

[Merlin99]

Thank you Miss-Interpreter... but wait just a minute little lady. We tell you the truth and YOU'RE the ones who get mad. If you told me that I was going to Hell I would just tell you that you're wrong. We're the ones who get lit into by you folks. YOU'RE the ones who get upset at what we say. YOU'RE the ones who broadbrush all Christians and make jokes about what we believe.
This primitive lie that we're forcing you to believe a certain way is your way of side stepping a guilty conscience. You haven't seen "forcing something down your throat" yet. Wait until Obama opens the doors to the muslims in this country. Wait until they hold a sword to your throat and tell you believe or die. THEN you can say something "was forced down your throat".
So: Do you now believe what we've told you on here about God, Hell, Jesus, etc??? Of course not! So where's this forcing that you speak of?
If you can't deal with what you're going to hear in here, quit coming in. Personally I'm glad you infidels are in here but I am really sick of your whining. You know it's a religious forum and yet you gripe when religious statements are made to you.
And, BTW, NO "non-believer can force their beliefs on me", dear heart. I'm not as weak & whiney as some of you who come in here. I know the truth and that's why I speak so boldly about it. One day you'll wish you knew it too...

Here's thre root of my issues with religion, you've stated that your telling the truth and presented no tangible proof. Proof with no facts to support them are known as opinions. The facts that you invariably come up with are specious and require your particular brand of faith to believe them, looking at them from the outside they sound like fairy tales. Look at the ressurection, Jesus died on the cross and came back, this is presented as a fact, but where is the proof? How about the Virgin Birth, another "Fact" but looking at it from the outside what's more likely, God did it or Mary had a little side action?

 

[Nucklesack]

Here's thre root of my issues with religion, you've stated that your telling the truth and presented no tangible proof. Proof with no facts to support them are known as opinions. The facts that you invariably come up with are specious and require your particular brand of faith to believe them, looking at them from the outside they sound like fairy tales. Look at the ressurection, Jesus died on the cross and came back, this is presented as a fact, but where is the proof? How about the Immaculate Conception, another "Fact" but looking at it from the outside what's more likely, God did it or Mary had a little side action?

Just a point, the Immaculate Conception had nothing to do with Mary being a Virgin. The Immaculate Conception was about how Mary came into the world, not Jesus.

 

[aps45819]

The Immaculate Conception was about how Mary came into the world, not Jesus.

Don't think that's correct

 

[Nucklesack]

Don't think that's correct

Its thought by some that Immaculate Conception has to do with Jesus being born by a Virgin, but that is not the Dogma.

The Immaculate Conception is the concept that Mary was born without the stain of Original Sin.

It has nothing to do with the fact that she was a Virgin that birthed Jesus. (well it kind of does, if she was a Virgin she was still unstained).

 

[ItalianScallion]

i neither believe them to be the word of god, nor do i beleive those verses to represent a directive from god for all christians to judge others.

That's why you're antiChristian. The Bible isn't there to fit your beliefs. It's there to shape them. If you choose "not to believe", it doesn't change the truth written in it.

Here's thre root of my issues with religion, you've stated that your telling the truth and presented no tangible proof. Proof with no facts to support them are known as opinions. The facts that you invariably come up with are specious and require your particular brand of faith to believe them, looking at them from the outside they sound like fairy tales. Look at the ressurection, Jesus died on the cross and came back, this is presented as a fact, but where is the proof? How about the Virgin Birth, another "Fact" but looking at it from the outside what's more likely, God did it or Mary had a little side action?

You folks just keep proving the Bible true with every post like this one.
An example: The "proof" is the same proof that you'd find in any court case. The judge & jury didn't see the crime but they make a decision based on the evidence. The problem is that none of you want to acknowledge the evidence. I told you, we don't have a blind foolish faith. Some of us know how to accept valid evidence when we see it.
Where's the proof that George Washington lived? How about Abe Lincoln?

Just a point, the Immaculate Conception had nothing to do with Mary being a Virgin. The Immaculate Conception was about how Mary came into the world, not Jesus.

I rest my case with this man!
(From the department of redundancy department): You shouldn't try to understand spiritual things when you're not spiritual.

Its thought by some that Immaculate Conception has to do with Jesus being born by a Virgin, but that is not the Dogma.
The Immaculate Conception is the concept that Mary was born without the stain of Original Sin.
It has nothing to do with the fact that she was a Virgin that birthed Jesus. (well it kind of does, if she was a Virgin she was still unstained).

"It's thought" but not correct, so keep trying.
And there's NO original sin, so that kills that idea.

 

[mAlice]

You shouldn't try to understand spiritual things when you're not spiritual.