So let's have this discussion of gay United States citizens.

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Hessian
Vrai has walked a fence at times on what I've said and endorsements are few.

Not true, Hessian - I always enjoy your posts even when I don't agree with you. Just don't try to say that heteros are morally superior or I'm gonna point you toward Beano the Meano.

There's a ton of sinning that gets done in this world. There's nothing you can do about it, short of choosing not to associate with those you find morally inferior. So there you go. I don't associate with people like BeanoRock - you don't associate with Bertha. Simple.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Re: Hey Vrai...don't leave!

Originally posted by Hessian
. . . . you basically are wasting time on a doomed people. (Doomed you ask? yes....and they know it). . . .

. . . . spreading of more lies & deceit about how fulfilled and happy they are (they aren't). More school curriculum to be forced on our kids, more TV programs encouraging this risky and dangerous lifestyle. More branding of Christians & Moral people as homophobes. . . .

Hi, Hessian. A few questions:

(Throughout I'll speak as if you've addressed me, not just "homosexuals" as a group, because if you're going to talk about the group you're going to have to say whatever you have to say to me. I post in a lot of other fora and don't allow "I don't mean you, Bertha" bunk.) (Wow, that came out really combative, and I didn't mean it that way. Sorry.)

How am I doomed? Do you mean physically or in the hereafter, or both? You don't know anything about my physical health or my spiritual life.

How do you deign to tell me I'm lying if I say I'm happy? You don't know me. It's a pretty outrageous assumption.

What are the school curricula I attempt to force into a classroom?

What is my "risky and dangerous lifestyle?"

Whom have I branded a Christian homophobe (and don't you imagine that would be rather stupid for me & countless other gay followers of Christ)?

Thanks.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Hessian, are you a descendant of George Whitefield? J/C.

 

[Hessian]

one by one...

There is not a single soul who will say that the gay lifestyle is healthy. In fact as you wrote a ways back: high percentage of "suicide among teens"...& expensive treatment for HIV...diseases related to multiple partners. Infection rates that are embarrassing to a "civilized" people.
Doomed? yes (not any more than someone who continues in a self destructive behavior; IV drug users, smokers, alcoholics..all begun with a choice.)..
Morally? absolutely...I won't play the Practicing Homo Christian game with you. It is in utter defiance of the words and tenets of scripture. Both NT & OT make it clear: despicable & abhorent. =(doomed)...There are Christian websites and foundations for those who have chosen to drop the facade of the "christian homosexual" and get a new grip on their life....shedding the denials and imagined "openness."
"But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.......For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person-such a man is an idolator-has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." Eph 5: 4& 6

You haven't "hinted"...you've been waving a banner!

The Smithsonian has how many tons of rags commemorating the AIDs quilt to testify to your happiness. Even the "survivors" are ripped by guilt that they survived when so many of their partners are dead. The pain felt by countless families by your choice...is that part of your "happiness?" Look at the anger spewed by ACT Up and queer nation and the Gay Pride leaders...they are bitter, angry people (en masse) so don't waste you're breath telling me how happy you are.

Teaching Tolerance is a mag that is circulated to millions of Teachers each year with agenda and goals to confuse the moral compass of kids as young at 5 (Its not too early to start right?) California dedicates multiple in-service days and activity days for kids to "OUT" themselves. NYC has build a whole HS for queer teens at the cost of 3.2 million for about 100 whiners. This is just a fraction of the indoctrination that is being pumped into the schools under the illusion of "Celebrating diversity."
I use the magazine in my staff meetings to emphasize what we are up against.

As long as morality continues to collapse, we'll be forced to "appreciate & celebrate" newly created transgendered, cross-dressing, homo erotic manifestations. Those who have second thoughts or object will be the new age of outcasts or targetted for "reeducation."-no tolerance will be shown to them.

No descendant relation to Winthrop, Whitefield, Bradford.....just William Brewster....they are among my brothers though.

 

[Hessian]

And now for the gifted and talented.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/31/a...00&en=9cde0f12d8b4ccb0&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

please note the refreshing lifestyle including multiple drugs, orgies, and yes...a desire for children...how odd.
Gee, what a happy guy.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Thanks for your reply, Hessian. I didn't see an answer to "what is my homosexual lifestyle..."

 

[Larry Gude]

Bertha...



...you're not actually waiting are you?

 

[Bertha Venation]

Re: Bertha...

Originally posted by Larry Gude


...you're not actually waiting are you?

No. Just trying to make a point; Hessian ignored what I wrote. I think I know what he thinks is "the homosexual lifestyle." I also think I'd be wasting my time to point out that what he thinks that "lifestyle" is merely

• takes a small portion of a group of people who enjoy sex at any cost
• then singles out the gay people in that group
• then spreads the lie that that's what all gay people do/are about/live for.

 

[vraiblonde]

You know how you go to a party where the invitation says the dress is "elegantly casual"? And how some women take that to mean slacks and some take it to mean a cocktail dress? And how there is always a gaggle of women who CARE that some of the women are dressed "inappropriately"? A few of them will go on and on, making a federal case over someone else's attire.

It's a basic insecurity that we, as humans, have about anyone who's different. If they're different, that must be wrong. Because otherwise, it's us that's wrong. And we can't have that. Humans always separate things into "right" and "wrong". If we're right, then those not like us must be wrong. This works for religion, too.

Just a thought.

 

[Hessian]

New defense line..."You're not describing me...you are describing a tiny minority and know nothing about me"

Clever...but in no way did you refute a single thing I wrote.
The MASS misery (oh but its not me...that's only a tiny minority)
The higher risk of disease (tell me it hasn't crossed you mind as you have switched partners.)-It should cross the mind of every one of you who average 20+ partners in your abbreviated life span.

*No where in your response to me do you post the question "what is my lifestyle?" so why should I address it?

*No where did you deny scripture (like you can actually do that)
*No where did you deny the indoctrination taking place (like you can deny that)
*No where did you deny that Act up, Queer Nation, Gay pride organizations are made up of angry bitter people. (Thus the paradox of being "gay" a word demolished in the English Language.)

So please don't accuse me of refusing to address your question (which you didn't ask in the first place) when you didn't even address or countering any of my points.

Vrai ..since I haven't listened in on a gaggle (the NOW gang would crucify you for that one) of women critiquing the "out of style" party attendees...I should assume you see this as a minor social issue....sort of an "in vs out" crowd situation. Christians should Never strive to be "in" (I don't.) Its not an issue of style...its an issue of clear cut choices-no gray zones on this one. Its not something we just sort of decided along the way...its been the rule for thousands of years. So although you might see it in a us & them petty tiff...to me it goes to the core of our God-given nature (and man's refusal to acknowledge that). PS...Jesus was NEVER "in"
Hi Larry!

 

[Bertha Venation]

Originally posted by Hessian
New defense line..."You're not describing me...you are describing a tiny minority and know nothing about me" . . . .

The higher risk of disease (tell me it hasn't crossed you mind as you have switched partners.)-It should cross the mind of every one of you who average 20+ partners in your abbreviated life span.

You may find it wise not to talk about things you don't know anything about. This is where your generalizations make a fool of you.

Cry "foul" about you're not describing me" all you want, but the fact is that I "played safe" with the only three women I've ever been intimate with in my twenty-odd years of adulthood, and I married the third. (As for playing safe with men? I played the ultimate safe way there. I'm a "gold medal d*ke," Hessian; I tried so many times, but could never bring myself to go against my nature like that.

)

The risk of disease is not any higher for promiscuous gay people or gay people who don't play safe than it is for their straight counterparts.

Originally posted by Hessian
*No where in your response to me do you post the question "what is my lifestyle?" so why should I address it?

Actually, I did. I just worded it a little differently, using a direct quote from you: "What is my 'risky and dangerous lifestyle?'"

Originally posted by Hessian
*No where did you deny scripture (like you can actually do that)
*No where did you deny the indoctrination taking place (like you can deny that)
*No where did you deny that Act up, Queer Nation, Gay pride organizations are made up of angry bitter people. (Thus the paradox of being "gay" a word demolished in the English Language.)

So please don't accuse me of refusing to address your question (which you didn't ask in the first place) when you didn't even address or countering any of my points.

Hessian, I apologize for not addressing your post point-by-point. I didn't mean to snub you by not doing so.

I don't refute what you post about the Bible because you have already dismissed anything I might say. Moreover, the Bible can have nothing to do with the discussion of civil rights in the U.S.

I don't refute what you say about diseases, about promiscuity, etc., for the same reason--I don't believe you'd pay attention to a single word without jumping on it like a chicken on a june bug.

"Indoctrination" is nonesense, Hessian, and I don't attempt to refute nonesense. It's impossible to do so.

Why should I refute anything Act Up or Queer Nation has done? It's history. But you generalize their actions to include the entire gay population of the U.S., and that is absurd.

If you'd honestly like to read what I do have to say in response to your opinions about the Bible, disease and promscuity, "indoctrination," and "gay bitterness," let me know. I'll post my responses, although I imagine you'll merely post canned responses in reply.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Hessian
its an issue of clear cut choices-no gray zones on this one.

To me it's an issue of "who cares?" And how does it hurt or even affect you? If gay people were tearing up the countryside, raping and pillaging, okay. Now there's a problem and it's our business. But we've already established that heteros commit the vast majority of violent crimes. The numbers aren't even there for gays as a percentage of their population, as far as I can tell.

You're stuck in a stereotype, Hessian. That's like someone who's never known any black people categorizing them based on what they see on MTV. Or people stereotyping Christians based on the ones that bomb abortion clinics.

 

[vraiblonde]

One more thought:

For a very long time in our history, whites were appalled at the thought of a black person sitting next to them in a restaurant or living next door to them. Men were appalled at the thought of a woman voting or owning property. They probably made the same arguments that you, Hessian, make against homosexuality. They certainly brought the Bible into it.

We're just undergoing another social change.

 

[Bruzilla]

Here's my two cents as an Agnostic who has no religious beliefs or convictions what so ever...

First, Gays and Lesbians are sexual deviants, just as are pedophiles. Why do I say this? The sole purpose of sexual attraction and contact is to reproduce, and reproduction can only occur in nature between a male and a female. Sexual conduct that cannot result in procreation is a deviation from the norm. Sex between a man and a man, a woman and a woman, or a man and a five-year old girl all amount to the same thing... a deviation, hence the title Deviate.

Does the term "Sexual Deviate" summon negative connotations? Yeah... and I hate being lumped in with toothless idiots running around the woods in camoflage just because I own an assault rifle or two, but them are the breaks. Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, you are in the same catagory as pedophiles.

Second, I agree 100% with Bill O'Reilly when he says that a person should keep their sexual business to themself. If you're going to run about throwing your sexual orientation into people's faces, then you deserve whatever disrespect you get. Nobody needs to know about your sex life but yourself and your partners. Yet more and more Gays and Lesbians feel this burning desire to flaunt their sexual views to people who don't want to hear about them, and worse, who object to them. In my opinion, gays and lesbians are crying "foul" at an issue that is of their own creation.

When I lived in Columbia I had two gay doctors living next to me. They didn't hide the fact that they were gay, and would walk holding hands through the park behind our houses. We talked all the time, had each other's families over for dinner, helped with car problems, etc., in short we were good neighbors. But then, they never felt the need to have a Gay Pride Day and parade, or post Gay Rights pamplets on the neighbor's houses, or otherwise go out of their way to say "HEY, I'M GAY AND PROUD OF IT!!!" You don't see many straight folks feeling the need to proclaim "HEY, I'M STRAIGHT AND PROUD OF IT!!!" Keep your sex to yourself.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Hessian:

Moved from this thread to here, where it's on topic:

Originally posted by Hessian
I guess I nailed that other posting on another thread even though "I don't know anything about the gay lifestyle"...I referred to the misery that is associated with the "gay lifestyle"...odd that Bertha didn't admit to the misery she put her father through. Well, at least now she has confessed. oh well.

The only places I mentioned my father were here

Originally posted by Bertha Venation
BTW, you [2A] wrote: "[God is] exacting against those that do not obey Him"--you sound like my father. I know you can't be old enough for that, though. Plus he doesn't own any firearms.

and here

Originally posted by Bertha Venation in reply to

Originally posted by 2ndAmendment
Who knows, I may be old enough to be your father, but my daughter is not a homosexual.

Yeah, you and my dad would get along just great. According to him, his daughter (the youngest of three) isn't a homosexual, either. Oh, you can't imagine the guilt he feels, 2A--as if he had anything to do with it. :shrug:

Out of these two paragraphs, you find enough

• to repeat that you do know something about "the gay lifestyle," although you have yet to describe what "the gay lifestyle" is, leading me to think that you don't know what you're talking about
• to insist yet again, although an actual gay American has told you it's not so, that "the gay lifestyle" entails inherent misery (thus implying that you believe just about anything a gay person says is a lie)
• to state that I've admitted/confessed to putting my father through some misery

You, sir, are extremely talented at reading what is not there.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[Bertha Venation]

Hi, Bruzilla.

Originally posted by Bruzilla First, Gays and Lesbians are sexual deviants, just as are pedophiles. . . . them are the breaks. Unfortunately, whether you like it or not, you are in the same catagory as pedophiles.

I don't care if you call me a deviate. It doesn't hurt me. I know who I am. Having survived three of them, however, it does bother me to be lumped in with pedophiles. At least get the facts straight, Bruzilla: pedophiles prey upon children, victims, who do not (cannot legally give informed) consent. If you can't understand this extremely simple difference between criminal activity that destroys the lives of innocents, and consensual activity between adults, I suggest that you not even bother to read further.

Originally posted by Bruzilla Nobody needs to know about your sex life but yourself and your partners.

Please take my point well: if you can show me any post in which I have ever discussed my sex life with my one committed monogamous partner, I'll never mention her name here again. The same if you can even find any casual acquaintance, neighbor, co-worker, grocery clerk, message board participant, etc., with whom I have discussed my sex life. I conduct my intimate affairs behind closed doors.

If I mention my orientation at all, it's not even in so many words. It's merely a logical conclusion people can arrive at because I am a woman and Kathy is a woman. What I discuss, that would make my orientation known at all, is either everyday life with my mate, which nearly every other married person I know discusses, or my Constitutional rights and the obstacles thereto that I face because of my orientation. I do not say, and I know no other gay person who says, "I'm gay and that means I blank with others of my own gender! Yippee! Glad to meetcha." The notion is ridiculous.

Say Gary is at a party and introduces himself and his wife, Charlene, to Ben and Tom. Ben introduces Tom as his husband or as his partner. If Gary or Charlene's mind immediately runs to the gutter and pictures Ben & Tom in flagrante delicto, that's not Ben & Tom's fault, now, is it?

Originally posted by Bruzilla You don't see many straight folks feeling the need to proclaim "HEY, I'M STRAIGHT AND PROUD OF IT!!!"

I don't see any straight folks doing that, at least not in so many words. What I see is a tremendous double standard. It's okay for straight people to talk about their husbands, wives, children, weddings, vacations, etc. Everyone assumes they're straight. It's obvious. But when a gay person talks about his or her spouse, their children, weddings, vacations, etc.--that's flaunting it? It's a shameful and thoughtless double standard.

 

[Kain99]

God loves every individual person more than we can ever imagine, Period!

I sit here watching this unfold and it literally breaks my heart. In so many of your posts I see myself. A terrified little girl who used to spew hatred to hide her own sin.

Christ died for us. He wants to change our lives so that we will be like Him.

Whether Bertha is right or wrong is meaningless. If God can love her why can't we?

Is right or wrong, more important than love and hate? You guys claim to be biblical scholars and righteous elites but who among you is without sin?

The kindness of God leads us to repentance. His love is so powerful that it can change our hearts so that we will quit doing what displeases Him.

None of you know why Bertha has chosen this life! None of you are any better. Hide behind your wives and your children all you want but in the end you will be exposed!

We are all sinners! We all cry the same tears, we all hurt we all bleed we all need!

Bertha, even if this never ever happens again for you... know that you totally changed one persons life! I am a totally better person because of you. I thank "Our God" everyday for you.

Wake up you guys.... We are not all that different! Look into your own souls before you cast those stones.

I speak with some authority... I used to be just like you.

 

[vraiblonde]

Deviant, I'll go for - as in 'deviating from the norm'. That's not a bad word but it's been turned into something meant to offend.

But, Bru, pedophiles are criminals - gays aren't. So a more appropriate comparison for deviancy would be kids with purple hair and multiple piercings, maybe. Because it's not criminal behavior, nor does it hurt anyone else. It's just uncomfortable for some people who don't share the trait.

I've never seen gays get all Queer Nation except for on TV. The ones I know are professional people who wear dresses and suits to work. And yes, the women wear the dresses and the men wear the suits. They own their own home and have a nice vehicle. "Gay lifestyle" doesn't mean drugs and promiscuity anymore than "heterosexual lifestyle" does.

 

[vraiblonde]

Good post, Kain.

 

[SmallTown]

Originally posted by Bruzilla
First, Gays and Lesbians are sexual deviants, just as are pedophiles. Why do I say this? The sole purpose of sexual attraction and contact is to reproduce, and reproduction can only occur in nature between a male and a female. Sexual conduct that cannot result in procreation is a deviation from the norm. Sex between a man and a man, a woman and a woman, or a man and a five-year old girl all amount to the same thing... a deviation, hence the title Deviate.

I have to disagree. If the sole purpose was to reproduce, then why the heck does it feel sooooooooooo good?

And we do all sorts of things that result in "normal" couples not being able to procreate. And if a married couple finds out that for some medical reason they can't reproduce, then in God's eye they are committing a sin if they keep having sex??

I'm sorry, but I think the whole "sex is only for reproducing" bs was made up by a bunch of guys who just weren't getting any and this was their justification.