This Perfectly Sums Up What “Rights” Mean to Liberals

[SG_Player1974]

So you want laws written that force businesses, that are run by Christians, to serve people they may stand against the practice of their religion? This is one place people (even if they are running a business) are not allowed to fully exercise their 1st amendment rights?

Should a Christian church be forced to provide wedding services for a gay couple simply because they like the location? I can definitely see that happening or at least becoming a legal matter as a result of all this.

 

[Amused_despair]

So you want laws written that force businesses, that are run by Christians, to serve people they may stand against the practice of their religion? This is one place people (even if they are running a business) are not allowed to fully exercise their 1st amendment rights?

Should a business be allowed to refuse service to a woman who is not accompanied by a male family member?

 

[vraiblonde]

Even if you don't believe what they believe, where does freedom of religion actually START?

If we could agree on the answer to that, we wouldn't be having all these silly news stories and legal cases.

Gays are looking for acceptance, I understand that. But they're not going to get it, not 100% universal. Nobody gets that. So at what point will they be satisfied? What point will *anyone* be satisfied?

 

[PsyOps]

Should a business be allowed to refuse service to a woman who is not accompanied by a male family member?

Should they do it? No.

Should the government pass laws that force them to? No.

So, to answer your question. Yes. But I would like to think the market will solve this problem by pushing them out of business.

 

[PsyOps]

Should a Christian church be forced to provide wedding services for a gay couple simply because they like the location? I can definitely see that happening or at least becoming a legal matter as a result of all this.

Denmark has such a law. Of course those are state-run churches.

I think some places have proposed such a thing. One way to get it done is to first force churches (the facilities) to host gay marriages. The next step would be to force Christian pastors and priests to perform gay marriages.

 

[Amused_despair]

Should they do it? No.

Should the government pass laws that force them to? No.

So, to answer your question. Yes. But I would like to think the market will solve this problem by pushing them out of business.

If an area had a preponderance of people of the same faith, the businesses could refuse service on religious grounds to females who were not escorted by male members of their families and under laws protecting "religious freedom" this would be legal. Whole neighborhoods could have businesses where unescorted females would be refused service. Service could be denied to males who did not have beards. If only one business does it then there are other choices, if all the businesses do it then there is no choice but to conform or leave. Eventually the area affected will grow as more like-minded people and businesses gravitate to this area and non-like-minded businesses and individuals are forced out.

 

[SamSpade]

Denmark has such a law. Of course those are state-run churches.

I think some places have proposed such a thing. One way to get it done is to first force churches (the facilities) to host gay marriages. The next step would be to force Christian pastors and priests to perform gay marriages.

I've wondered how people would view the subject if they just moved away from "Christian" and tried to see -- Muslim. Or Hindu. Or Jew.
Such as a Muslim baker or wedding planner working a wedding with two gay Muslims (most of my more devout Muslim friends say, ain't no such thing).
Or a Muslim wedding planner or florist working a Jewish/Muslim wedding. And so on.

A LOT of the objections I read are people who do NOT have any religious beliefs ridiculing all religion as BS and thus feel perfectly safe condemning their beliefs in this
matter. But freedom of religion is still a protected right, and much of this nation was created in pursuit of religious freedom. Freedom doesn't mean a thing at all if other people get to define what your freedom is. So you believe religion is BS - guess what, THAT is a protected right - in another time, YOU would have been the target. Attacking people for their religious beliefs just makes YOU the bad guy, just as having NONE would have made you the victim in the past.

 

[MMDad]

two gay Muslims (most of my more devout Muslim friends say, ain't no such thing).

So do a lot of devout Christians.

 

[Amused_despair]

I think that if the people refusing services to gays on religious reasons would also refuse service to people who eat shellfish, who charge interest, who eat the meat of animals that do not chew their cud, etc, etc would be well within their rights. A business that singles out one group amongst all the other sinners and says "THIS ONE WE WILL NOT SERVE, all the others are ok" then maybe they are using religion as an excuse to discriminate.

 

[DipStick]

Bah, they'd just laugh and go to another bakery. Which is what these gay activists should do, except that they're trying to rouse the rabble and make a political/social statement. How many Christian bakers have they tried to "out" who said, "Sure, we'll make your cake, no problem"? I'm sure there have been many, but we're not going to hear about those.

Or they would go on Fox & Friends and cry about being persecuted for having Christian beliefs or being white or something while Brian Kilmeade, Steve Doocy and Elizabeth Hasselbeck throw pies in the sky and claim religious persecution.

 

[DipStick]

Another thing I find very amusing is how many people on this forum (GURPS, especially) and young Conservatives post about Sharia Law and how it's coming to America yet many of them have no problem at all putting the foundation in place for the very thing they fear to become a reality.

 

[DipStick]

freedom to associate or not associate
..... I am sure the black baker is loving having to make that cake for the Grand Wizard, after loosing her court case

You ... haven't answered my question.

 

[PsyOps]

If an area had a preponderance of people of the same faith, the businesses could refuse service on religious grounds to females who were not escorted by male members of their families and under laws protecting "religious freedom" this would be legal. Whole neighborhoods could have businesses where unescorted females would be refused service. Service could be denied to males who did not have beards. If only one business does it then there are other choices, if all the businesses do it then there is no choice but to conform or leave. Eventually the area affected will grow as more like-minded people and businesses gravitate to this area and non-like-minded businesses and individuals are forced out.

First of all, I don’t think your hypothetical exists; except for very small pockets of Amish communities.

Secondly… Move! Other than wanting to force your singular will on an entire community, why would you want to live in such a place?

Lately... The general marketplace wouldn’t hold up under these very narrow conditions.

 

[CleanTheSlateInSMC]

Another thing I find very amusing is how many people on this forum (GURPS, especially) and young Conservatives post about Sharia Law and how it's coming to America yet many of them have no problem at all putting the foundation in place for the very thing they fear to become a reality.

Religious Freedom...as long as that religion is christianity.

 

[SamSpade]

Another thing I find very amusing is how many people on this forum (GURPS, especially) and young Conservatives post about Sharia Law and how it's coming to America yet many of them have no problem at all putting the foundation in place for the very thing they fear to become a reality.

I don't see why people get so upset over it, especially in light of what the law actually does allow against the slippery slope people claim it might allow.

This protects people who choose not to get involved. Maybe we should call it a person's right to choose?
This is the difference between one group flying planes into buildings and setting off bombs - and another on a hunger strike or setting themselves on fire.

I just don't see why someone MUST have everyone on board with their wedding. No one is protesting the wedding. Venues are not blocking weddings from happening,
and court clerks are not refusing to do their job. Do you know how many wedding planners have been hired for all the weddings in our family? Did you guess - zero?
You don't need a wedding planner. You don't need a florist. I didn't - we just bought flowers. We did the rest. It's not as though you can't hire someone else.

And what will people do if people ARE forced to do these - and they choose jail instead?

 

[PsyOps]

Another thing I find very amusing is how many people on this forum (GURPS, especially) and young Conservatives post about Sharia Law and how it's coming to America yet many of them have no problem at all putting the foundation in place for the very thing they fear to become a reality.

Sharia demands government involvement, hence Sharia LAW. However, Sharia introduces other factors that would be against American law... like beating the crap out of your wife, or 'mercy killing' your daughter because she was raped.

 

[SamSpade]

Religious Freedom...as long as that religion is christianity.

Fine. Let gays assault Muslims - see if people force THEM to comply.

It works both ways - religious antagonism is ok, so long as it's Christians, because they won't kill your whole town if you try it.

 

[PJay]

Eric Holder once called America a nation of cowards, when it comes to racial discussion.
What happens when Whites discuss race.
We make Vrai ashamed .

Her view is pretty inclusive when she says "You All".

We are not allowed to post of all the killings in the ghetto's on black on black crime.
We are not allowed to say Obama is incompetent. It ok when she says it , but she is ashamed when we say it.
Because we are racist and she isn't.

We are not allowed to point out all of the crimes, the riots, the black community has, nor can we point out that Hispanics are taking jobs from citizens, that they have no business being here if they came illegally, pr that drunken Hispanics are killing people on the roads.

She has no knowledge of our experiences or why we are racist in her mind,, she has judged us, and found us guilty.
And she is ashamed.
I don't consider myself racist, I judge each individual on the way they are, the way they live, and the stand they take.
She won't believe that,, and personally I don't care. I am willing to have a discussion on race, or homosexuals any time.
I know people of both persuasions , and like some of them and dislike others.,
I have homosexuality in my family and a niece who married a black. Most of us will have both in the family before too long.
Some call that progress.
To me Homosexuality is a sickness. I don't hate everyone with Cancer just because I hate Cancer.
I don't hate all blacks , just those who are like a cancer in the community.
I might add that all white hetero Christians are not a rallying cry away from lynching,or burning the homes of Non Christians, Non-hetero's or non whites or anyone else.

Damn Vrai you really got carried away on this post.

Excellent.

 

[vraiblonde]

Excellent.

Really? I thought it was ridiculous. Especially the part where he posts all that hysterical nonsense, then has the nerve to say that *I* got carried away.

 

[PJay]

We watched "42" last night, about Jackie Robinson breaking into the majors. Great movie, btw. It's difficult to see the ignorance and downright nasty way people treat each other. What's even worse is to realize that nothing has really changed. There are people right on this forum, from the way they talk, who would absolutely forbid a black person or a gay person from using a public facility or socializing with them in any capacity. If they thought they could get away with it and if someone else would start, they would absolutely be screaming filthy names and horrible things at blacks and gays and Muslims and anyone else who isn't "them". How we can tell is that they do it on a lesser scale right here in the open on a public forum where they're anonymous for the most part but not really. You see them comment on internet stories all the time.

Quite simply, I hate those people and wish they'd die. Like, really die. Painfully. And I want to watch.

So if non-whites, non-heteros, and non-Christians are a little touchy, I can totally see why they would be. White hetero Christians outnumber them - all of them - so they are one rallying cry away from being, if not lynched then refused service and burnt out of their homes.

And honestly I hate the bigots and racists on here because they've made this a part of my life, where it never was before. No black person or Muslim person or gay person has ever brought bigotry home to me - just you all. You make me ashamed.

Damn. Well, you certainly have the right to feel this way. I just wish for you to have walked a mile in my shoes.

Still Damn. And, here I thought you to be fair and understandering of all sides.

Triple Damn......