Radiant1
Soul Probe
Just for the record, I didn't point that out, Merlin did.
Throupling anyone?
- Thread starter onel0126
- Start date
Just for the record, I didn't point that out, Merlin did.
ProximaCentauri
Member
So, you're saying that sub-Saharan African's are too stupid to make their own choices. Got it.
It's really very simple. If everyone followed Catholic teaching there would be no spread of AIDS because there would be no sex outside of marriage. People do or do not follow Catholic teaching by their own free-will choices. Sub-Saharan Africans are no different than the rest of the world in that regard.
But I mean, hey, if you want to continue to put the blame of AIDS in Africa at the feet of the Catholic Church, then perhaps you should put the blame of AIDS in the entire world at the feet of the Catholic Church because the Church's teaching is the same throughout. At least then your ridiculous notion would be more consistent.
Didn't you proclaim yourself to be a rational person? I'm kind of disappointed, although not surprised.
Rad1, you are basing your 'rationality' on religious dogma. I obviously do not base my reasoning on dogma. That is the fundamental difference between our two arguments. To argue that women should simply abstain from sex is an argument that is not based in reality, it's not based in the real world. If you won't listen to me, you might consider how a fellow woman Catholic is viewing this tragedy and what she is doing about it.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/06/health/melinda-gates-contraception/
Radiant1
Soul Probe
It's based on people making their own choices. Are you saying our ability to choose is irrational? And again, are you saying that Sub-Saharan Africans are too stupid to make their own choices?
ProximaCentauri
Member
Walk a mile in the Sub-Saharan African woman’s shoes, if she’s luck enough to own a pair. Seriously, you can’t see how this decision, or virtually any life decision, is vastly different for you than for an SSA woman living in abject poverty?
HIV/AIDS education, contraception availability, is still desperately needed for these women. IMO, Melinda Gates is a Catholic woman’s role model for activism in this regard…
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Development/Family-Planning
Radiant1
Soul Probe
Rich or poor is not relevant. Are you saying that a woman (or a man for that matter) must fuck?
And while you're at it could you answer the other questions I asked?
ProximaCentauri
Member
With your attitude, I seriously doubt you care to educate yourself on the plight of women in this part of the world. In case you do here's some spoon fed info you may find enlightening...
"Research has shown that women become infected by the HI virus faster than men, with infection in Africans aged 15-24 being four times higher for women. This phenomenon is biological, social, and structural.
The biological basis is due to the vaginal tract being more susceptible to the HI virus than the penis. It has a larger exposed area and is more prone to tears, especially for young women or in cases of forced sex. Furthermore, semen has a higher viral load than vaginal fluid, and is likely to remain in the vaginal tract for an extended time. Therefore, intercourse without the use of a condom automatically puts a woman at higher risk.
Beyond biology, the virulence of the disease for both Africa and women can be attributed to structural causes, the first being widespread poverty.
Malnutrition and poor living conditions help foster diseases and make immune systems susceptible to infection. Furthermore, poverty often results in inaccessible or inadequate healthcare, including attempts by untrained civilians to provide their own medical care for infected family members. Social factors result in those caretakers being female family members.
As journalist Clay Maganda points out, “The burden of caring for sick family members and neighbours…falls more often on women and girls than on men. This increases their workload and reduces their income-generating and schooling opportunities.” Therefore, this situation not only imperils the caretakers physically, but endangers their future development and economic potential, thereby maintaining the chronic poverty that exacerbates the spread of the disease.
Another contributing factor is the socialised encouragement for men to have multiple sexual relationships at one time, often in secret from their partners. Throughout many areas of Africa, having heterosexual sex with multiple partners—even if married—is considered an attribute of true masculinity. There is, of course, no singular form of African masculinity, not even one for each specific country. As a social construct, masculinity is host to a range of cultural definitions as to what forms the ideal man. However, it is generally accepted throughout Africa—and in many countries worldwide—that sexual initiation is the doorway to manhood. This leads to the equation of masculinity with sexual prowess, which can be proven through acquisition of multiple partners. To compound the situation, this cultural construct of African masculinity precludes the use of condoms. As one man in South Africa anonymously attested, despite the well-known risk of AIDS, no real African man would resort to condoms. “They are living a true African. They say, ‘I'm an African. I won't use - I won't use a condom.’”
Structurally, women are hampered as a result of their subordinate status in society, with economic access unequal to that of males. Consequently, women are hardly ever in a position to challenge the construct of African masculinity, to demand that their male partners get tested, remain faithful, etc. As AIDS researchers Julia Kim and Charlotte Watts warn, “Refusing sex, inquiring about other partners, or suggesting condom use have all been described as triggers for intimate partner violence; yet all are intimately connected to the behavioural cornerstones of HIV prevention.
The unequal economic access, on the other hand, refers to limited rights for women to ownership or inheritance, access to credit, and ability to independently support herself and possibly children. The impact of this inferior financial status is all the more weighted within a continent of widespread poverty. This leaves some impoverished women powerless, resorting to sex work for survival or tolerating sexual violence from a partner out of financial dependence.
In the slums of Nairobi, for instance, many young women are taught to exchange sexual services for money and gifts to meet their daily needs, or in an attempt to find a long-term provider. Resorting to transactional sex leaves women particularly vulnerable to HIV infection, especially when they are frequently offered higher payment to have sex without condoms."
ProximaCentauri
Member
So with 171 Million Catholics in Sub-Saharan Africa, the Catholic Church has little presence? Your assertions that the RCC has very little presence in SSA and that abortion is widely available, even encouraged, appear to me as preposterous assertions that are unsupportable.
Bitterness has nothing to do with my views. I am simply taking an opposing stance to any religion whose actions spreads evil and increases human misery in the world.
I know this is off topic, and I apologize to anyone who takes offense to it, but how do you see yourself as agnostic with this attitude? I ask this mostly because I am agnostic, generally seen as a wait and see attitude. But you've shown a decidedly offensive attitude towards religion in general and the RCC in particular.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
And what would be my attitude? I'm all for educating myself and enlightenment, and you have given me some facts that I did know and some I didn't; thank you. However, you have made the assertion that the Catholic Church is contributing to the death rates in Sub-Saharan Africa with it's teachings and you have yet to convince me that is the case. Or, perhaps I should say you have made a preposterous assertion that is unsupportable.
I have pointed out to you that 1) The Church's teaching includes abstinence (which you do not deny saves more lives from AIDS than condoms do), and 2) people (all over the world not just sub-Saharan Africans) have free will to make their own choices. Now, I might give you a little leeway on point 2 regarding SSA's; however, that still does not hold the Church culpable because...
What you cite above are cultural and social ills, not religious ones. Most certainly the Catholic Church is not responsible for malnutrition and poor living conditions, the socialized encouragement for men to have multiple sexual relationships at one time, women's subordinate status in society and unequal economic access, or women being taught to exchange sexual services for money and gifts. I don't think even the most hard-core Atheist with a chip on their shoulder and one ounce of intellectual honesty would say it was.
I applaud you in your passionate anger regarding these women, but you have need to direct it properly. The Church is not your enemy when it comes to the plight of sub-Saharan African women. In fact, I'd be willing to bet it's done more for them than you have.
Btw, you still have not answered my questions. They were sincere. Your statements lead me to think you believe such things. I'm giving you an opportunity to clear the air and/or clarify.
ProximaCentauri
Member
I think the definition of Agnostic, which I’m paraphrasing here, is the stance that the existence of God or Gods is unknowable. I take that position but primarily from the standpoint of a Creator of the Universe. With respect to the Judeo-Christian God, or Allah, Hindu gods, or any other, I am pretty much an Atheist, i.e., I believe the probability to be virtually nil. Other terms that could characterize my views would be secularist and humanist.
I have no axe to grind against any one particular religion. All of them are bullsh*t in my view. If I seem particularly hard on Catholicism, it is because I know it well, and am very familiar with its historical atrocities, and its continued atrocities into the 21st century. Most Catholics stick their heads in the sand, they don’t care to know the truth. This pisses me off.
Generally, I oppose religious dogma when it does damage in the world. Many Western European countries are in the process of chucking religion into the dust bin of history. The USA has a long way to go, but I think the future trend will be in the same direction.
ProximaCentauri
Member
First off, thank-you for the civility of you post. Abstinence is not pragmatic, never has been, never will be. I am sure you would agree with me if you were being honest. I agree that cultural and social factors are major drivers of the problem of HIV/AIDS in SSA. Regarding the RCCs involvement, there has been significant involvement documented, some of it obviously good, as in caring for the sick, administering drugs, vaccinations, etc. The ironic part is, the dogma that is upheld by the RCC causes much more misery and death that they will be tending to. I think you underestimate the damage done by pressing this dogma, especially in prior years, but things have improved with the willingness of the RCC to listen to public outcry I don't think Pope Francis has taken an official stance yet, holding out a little hope here that he will make even more concessions to birth control but it's going to be tough for him as abstinence/no birth control is an entrenched and seemingly immovable dogma.
Regarding your questions, I view them as you trying to prove a point that all humans have the ability to choose and that even 3rd world people can make informed decisions. While there is basic truth in both those statements, these questions obviously do nothing to speak to the complexities of the situation and socio-economic conditions and other societal ills will always be impacting. I view those kinds of questions or statements in the context of discussing this particular issue as 'Facist', not trying to pick a fight here, just sayin. And dismissive of a more compassionate analysis of the issue.
So, hopefully this post clarifies a little more for you my thinking. Again, your previous post is appreciated.
onel0126
Bead mumbler
Unsupportable? Let's start with just one country in SSA that has a predominantly "Catholic" population--Mozambique. From the Guttenmacher Institute, "Mozambique has had one of the most liberal de facto systems of abortion on request in Sub-Saharan Africa. Nevertheless, clandestine abortions, performed by curettage or with the use of herbal and other nonpatent abortifacients, remain common. These procedures constitute a major cause of maternal morbidity and mortality, and further strain the already scarce resources of the health care system."
Continuing, "This analysis is based on information from women requesting abortions at the largest hospital in Greater Maputo. Maputo is in many respects typical of large and rapidly growing Sub-Saharan cities."
Again, I use published data and real world experience to defend my claims here--something you should appreciate.
When I say the RCC doesn't have a significant presence in SSA, for clarification I wasn't referring to number of adherents to the faith, more referring to as I said later in the post--SSA not exactly the hotbed of Catholicism culturally speaking.
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LostNFound
Member
Dude- you are making WAY too much sense to be on this particular forum. I appreciate what you are attempting- but they are too far gone. Its hopeless but I give you a lot of credit for even wanting to try to cure them of the poison they've seeped in all their lives. It *is tantamount to child abuse- and we see what it leads to. Fight the good fight but walk away shaking your head in the end.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
I think abstinence can be difficult, but it's certainly not impossible as it's done every day by persons across the globe. The same can be said for using condoms. I'm sure you would agree that people choose not to use condoms when they know they should. Just like people choose to have sex when they know they shouldn't. So with that in mind, neither abstinence or birth control is very pragmatic.
You do realize don't you that the teaching you speak of is only a partial teaching? It's BOTH don't have sex outside of marriage AND don't use birth control within marriage, as sex is for procreation; that is the teaching in its fullness albeit simply put. Do you think the Church is brainwashing people to not use birth control while at the same time neglecting to brainwash them not to have sex outside of marriage or something? (As a side note, the fact that you seem to think the Church has such an overwhelming influence on people these days is rather flattering.)
Again, your anger is grossly misplaced. The Church is not your enemy in regards to this issue. And btw, you still have yet to support your preposterous statement. I will assume at this point that you cannot. In fact, I know you can't. You should get off your Catholic Church birth control kick and instead focus on changing African attitudes toward sex and women.
You know the more I think about it the more I think you and people like yourself are the evil in this. You are giving a pass to African men to have sex with multiple partners by merely promoting birth control while decrying abstinence and therefore you are tacitly approving their behavior and furthering the cultural problem and subsequently the spread of AIDS. And this in light of and with the knowledge that, "no real African man would resort to condoms" (quoted from your own citation).
Did you seriously just resort to what amounts to Godwin's law? Your unwillingness to answer the questions is duly noted. As a result, I will continue to think you truly believe people must fuck and that sub-Saharan Africans are too stupid to make their own choices. Call those educated assumptions Fascist if you will, most of us know better.
LostNFound
Member
You are the only one here making sense. My guess- you know many sites like this on the net and you try to spread logic to people willing to have a calm conversation. You hopefully enjoy time on sites with like minded (clear thinking open minded) folks like yourself. You wont win here - these people dont want any other truth or answer. But thanks for playing. Yours is/was at least a most sensible, calm and articulate discourse to the religiosity nonsense these people trumpet. I appreciate knowing people like you are trying to fix the mess religion has given the planet. Atheists (non theists- whatever) generally hide and/or dont share their views. So often those with faith cant mix fiction with fact so they stick with fiction - or faith. Its good enough for them. Its what they've always been told. Change is too hard and a world where they find themselves thinking on their own without instruction or a 'plan' terrifies them. We can only hope your thoughts, ideas, and attitude catch on and spread faster than new recruits are grabbed into the flock. - man youd think theyd recognize the fact they are called sheep and like it- is a small bit of proof there is a huge problem.
PsyOps
Pixelated
And I suppose Throupling makes sense to you?
ProximaCentauri
Member
Rad1...“I'm sure you would agree that people choose not to use condoms when they know they should. Just like people choose to have sex when they know they shouldn't.”
Sorry, that second statement is just ridiculous and has no connection with the first. Humans will continue to have sex, and plenty of it, it’s a biological thing not a biblical thing.
Rad1...“So with that in mind, neither abstinence or birth control is very pragmatic.”
You are way beyond ‘reaching’ with this conclusion. Studies do not bear this out, do a little research. Birth control is always the more pragmatic approach and always resulting in less unwanted pregnancies. And by the way, how is this dark age dogma of no sex unless it is for procreation only, working out with your fellow Catholics? Answer - In a 2012 Gallup poll, 82% of US Catholics considered the use of birth control to be morally acceptable.
The Catholic church as a decided influence on SSA Catholics. Just what do you suppose the SSA RCC clergy is telling the 171 Million faithful? Somehow I don't think they are teaching them the value of contraception for the prevention of unwanted pregnancies and HIV/AIDS.
If you'd give it any rational thought, you'd realize you can't hang this thing on the attitudes and promiscuity of African men. Multiple partners and failure to use condoms is not unique to African men only, it is a cultural issue in many countries, including the United States.
I would suggest that you do more research on the topic, rather than rattle off opinions in an effort to prove the Catholic dogma solution is valid. If you don’t come to the same conclusion Melinda Gates did, then you can lump her in with those same ‘evil’ types as me.
PsyOps
Pixelated
And there is where you lost it. You spin off about how rational ProximaCentauri is, then go on and condemn people for having beliefs that are contrary to yours. You accuse them of what you are guilty of. Way to exhibit true close-mindedness and intolerance.
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ProximaCentauri
Member
Yeah, go figure, the humanist approach doesn't seem to be much appreciated here. Thanks for the props though!