Throupling anyone?

[PsyOps]

This should not be surprising to you. The vast majority of Catholics do not believe in or practice many tenets of the faith.

Do you have some sort of proof of this?

 

[PsyOps]

You really should do a little research on the subject regarding the efficacy of abstinence only sex education. Studies have shown it to be it to be ineffective. The United States continues to leads all industrialized nations of the world in teen pregnancy rate. Sex education is primarily left up to states and even local school districts to determine. It is very watered down compared to what the rest of the "First World" kids get; teaching and promoting contraceptive use is still very controversial here, not so in other industrialized nations. US States that do the worst job of sex education or teach primarily abstinence-only sex education - we're talking Bible Belt states here - have the highest teen pregnancy rates.

First of all I wasn't promoting abstinence-only sex ed. My point is – which you obviously missed – is the only guarantee to not get pregnant is abstinence. My point also is, it is rejected because it is perceived as a moral issue and our society hates having moral shoved down their throats. I don’t see it as a moral issue; I see it as an imperative to avoid getting pregnant.

Before you lecture someone on what they should research, perhaps you should make a better effort to understand the point. I am completely aware of why it is ineffective teaching in sex-ed; and stated why - twice now.

 

[Bird Dog]

You really should do a little research on the subject regarding the efficacy of abstinence only sex education. Studies have shown it to be it to be ineffective. The United States continues to leads all industrialized nations of the world in teen pregnancy rate. Sex education is primarily left up to states and even local school districts to determine. It is very watered down compared to what the rest of the "First World" kids get; teaching and promoting contraceptive use is still very controversial here, not so in other industrialized nations. US States that do the worst job of sex education or teach primarily abstinence-only sex education - we're talking Bible Belt states here - have the highest teen pregnancy rates.

So, preaching the use of condoms is working also.........I think not.

The secular community via, TV, books, magazines, preaching sex, therefore having babies out of wedlock, spreading AIDS and STDs whether teen or young adult is cool is the problem not religion.

 

[Larry Gude]

How does three lesbians marrying one another become a conversation about AID's and unwanted pregnancy prevention? Last time I checked, neither is much of a day to day concern in the lesbian world.

If anything, they make a case FOR being lesbian.

 

[Radiant1]

I'm back sooner than expected.

Well at least you got some vitriol out of your system with that post - maybe it will help with your health.

No vitriol, you haven't experienced that from me...yet. Thank you for your well wishes regarding my health; your compassion knows no bounds!

Yes, how self-aware you are that you recognize you are making the same argument over and over, that Catholics and all individuals make their own choices. How convenient for the Catholic Church. They can never do any wrong by that argument. This clears them of any complicity in the inquisition as well. It was the heretics 'choice'; he could have accepted Catholicism. It wasn't the RCC's fault he had to get burned at the stake. That was his choice. Send your logic to the Vatican, they could use it.

More emotionalism. If Catholics were actually forcing people to get the HIV virus then you might have a point; however, they aren't and you don't. You can keep tryin' though!

To say that your logic shows a spectacular lack of compassion, understates it.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they lack compassion.

You've failed to logically prove your assertion. Attempting to demonize Catholics, the pope, or myself doesn't make your statement less false.

How does three lesbians marrying one another become a conversation about AID's and unwanted pregnancy prevention? Last time I checked, neither is much of a day to day concern in the lesbian world.

If anything, they make a case FOR being lesbian.

No doubt.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I'm back sooner than expected.



No vitriol, you haven't experienced that from me...yet. Thank you for your well wishes regarding my health; your compassion knows no bounds!



More emotionalism. If Catholics were actually forcing people to get the HIV virus then you might have a point; however, they aren't and you don't. You can keep tryin' though!



Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they lack compassion.

You've failed to logically prove your assertion. Attempting to demonize Catholics, the pope, or myself doesn't make your statement less false.



No doubt.

Radiant1, glad you made it back. It seems a lost cause to go further with this, maybe you could petition St. Jude. As for me, I take solace in the actions of Catholics who disagree with your stance that the RCC is absolved of any wrong doing. I support their efforts and the efforts of other organizations to stem the horrific tide of human misery by making contraceptives available and educating Africans in the importance of their use to prevent HIV/AIDS. For me anyway, this issue simply boils down to the following....

1. Do you value human life? If yes go to next question.
2. Do you agree that making contraception widely available, and instruction in its proper use will deter the spread of HIV/AIDS thereby saving lives? If yes then...
3. Make contraceptives widely available, educate the populace on their use, and knock down the religious barriers that cause people not to use them.

 

[onel0126]

Radiant1, glad you made it back. It seems a lost cause to go further with this, maybe you could petition St. Jude. As for me, I take solace in the actions of Catholics who disagree with your stance that the RCC is absolved of any wrong doing. I support their efforts and the efforts of other organizations to stem the horrific tide of human misery by making contraceptives available and educating Africans in the importance of their use to prevent HIV/AIDS. For me anyway, this issue simply boils down to the following.... 1. Do you value human life? If yes go to next question. 2. Do you agree that making contraception widely available, and instruction in its proper use will deter the spread of HIV/AIDS thereby saving lives? If yes then... 3. Make contraceptives widely available, educate the populace on their use, and knock down the religious barriers that cause people not to use them.

I can't deal with this ANY longer. You are ignorant; in the absolute truest since of the word.

Have you ever been to SSA, or is all of your knowledge of the HIV/AIDS epidemic based on news reports and poorly produced late night Christian relief agency infomercials?

Contraception is readily available AT NO COST in every city, village, town, in every country in SSA. USAID has "family planning clinics" everywhere in SSA. And guess what, there is still HIV/AIDS throughout the region, with 178 million Catholic or not.

If you've never been there, with ALL due respect, STFU and move on!

 

[Radiant1]

Radiant1, glad you made it back. It seems a lost cause to go further with this, maybe you could petition St. Jude. As for me, I take solace in the actions of Catholics who disagree with your stance that the RCC is absolved of any wrong doing. I support their efforts and the efforts of other organizations to stem the horrific tide of human misery by making contraceptives available and educating Africans in the importance of their use to prevent HIV/AIDS. For me anyway, this issue simply boils down to the following....

1. Do you value human life? If yes go to next question.
2. Do you agree that making contraception widely available, and instruction in its proper use will deter the spread of HIV/AIDS thereby saving lives? If yes then...
3. Make contraceptives widely available, educate the populace on their use, and knock down the religious barriers that cause people not to use them.

According to your own sources it's not religious barriers that cause people not to use them. Even you have admitted it's cultural, so why keep up the falsehood? Seriously, you can find a myraid of other legitimate reasons to hate religion. You don't need to cling to a lie.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I can't deal with this ANY longer. You are ignorant; in the absolute truest since of the word.

Have you ever been to SSA, or is all of your knowledge of the HIV/AIDS epidemic based on news reports and poorly produced late night Christian relief agency infomercials?

Contraception is readily available AT NO COST in every city, village, town, in every country in SSA. USAID has "family planning clinics" everywhere in SSA. And guess what, there is still HIV/AIDS throughout the region, with 178 million Catholic or not.

If you've never been there, with ALL due respect, STFU and move on!

onel0126, you outdid yourself with that post. Incivility, insults, a little cyber bullying, as in “STFU” - that one had a little of everything.

I provide the following for the benefit of others who might read it since you appear beyond the pale…

1. The CDC, United Nations-AIDS, World Health Organization, USAID, and other organizations involved in the worldwide fight against HIV/AIDS, advocate condom use as one of the primary strategies to slow the spread of the disease. All organizations say there is still much work to be done. 7000 new persons per day contract HIV/AIDS in the world, many of them in Sub-Saharan Africa.

2. World pressure was required to get Pope Benedict to change his stance in 2009 that ‘condoms actually worsened the spread of HIV/AIDS.’ But his softening of rhetoric did little, for all intents and purposes, to dissuade Catholic clergy in Sub Saharan Africa (SSA) from discouraging their use. SSA has 171 Million Catholics.

3. Even now, Catholic clergy in the region continue to put up barriers to condom use and discourage their use.

Citation: “Kenya's Catholic Church affirms stand against condom use” By JAMES NGUNJIRI and NELIMA MURUMBA | Monday, April 29 2013 at 12:26 Source: AfricaReview.com

Archbishop Peter Kairo of the Nyeri Catholic Archdiocese in Kenya. On April 28, 2013, restated that the Catholic Church was opposed to the use of condoms.

 

[onel0126]

onel0126, you outdid yourself with that post. Incivility, insults, a little cyber bullying, as in “STFU” - that one had a little of everything. I provide the following for the benefit of others who might read it since you appear beyond the pale… 1. The CDC, United Nations-AIDS, World Health Organization, USAID, and other organizations involved in the worldwide fight against HIV/AIDS, advocate condom use as one of the primary strategies to slow the spread of the disease. All organizations say there is still much work to be done. 7000 new persons per day contract HIV/AIDS in the world, many of them in Sub-Saharan Africa. 2. World pressure was required to get Pope Benedict to change his stance in 2009 that ‘condoms actually worsened the spread of HIV/AIDS.’ But his softening of rhetoric did little, for all intents and purposes, to dissuade Catholic clergy in Sub Saharan Africa (SSA) from discouraging their use. SSA has 171 Million Catholics. 3. Even now, Catholic clergy in the region continue to put up barriers to condom use and discourage their use. Citation: “Kenya's Catholic Church affirms stand against condom use” By JAMES NGUNJIRI and NELIMA MURUMBA | Monday, April 29 2013 at 12:26 Source: AfricaReview.com Archbishop Peter Kairo of the Nyeri Catholic Archdiocese in Kenya. On April 28, 2013, restated that the Catholic Church was opposed to the use of condoms.

Still waiting for my answer...ever been to SSA?

 

[ProximaCentauri]

According to your own sources it's not religious barriers that cause people not to use them. Even you have admitted it's cultural, so why keep up the falsehood? Seriously, you can find a myraid of other legitimate reasons to hate religion. You don't need to cling to a lie.

I don't hate religion, but I do despise the actions of religions. I have Catholic friends, who feel the same, that the RCC is complicit in of activities that worsen the problem in SSA.
Btw, when I provide a fair source that talks to many causal factors, I don't expect it to be cherry-picked. We both agree there are many causal factors. We just happen to disagree that the RCC is complicit in more disease when it comes to discouraging birth control, especially condoms. Also, for the woman who is HIV positive, female birth control prevents more babies being born with AIDS.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Still waiting for my answer...ever been to SSA?

I recommend you don't hold your breath. I would further recommend, you provide solid arguments backed with data /citations to support your positions. You previously asserted that abortion was available "and even encouraged" in the SSA. The evidence is to the contrary. If you have been there, any personal observations would be anecdotal.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

First of all I wasn't promoting abstinence-only sex ed. My point is – which you obviously missed – is the only guarantee to not get pregnant is abstinence. My point also is, it is rejected because it is perceived as a moral issue and our society hates having moral shoved down their throats. I don’t see it as a moral issue; I see it as an imperative to avoid getting pregnant.

Before you lecture someone on what they should research, perhaps you should make a better effort to understand the point. I am completely aware of why it is ineffective teaching in sex-ed; and stated why - twice now.

Fair enough. We both understand why it's not effective. Some studies show US kids having sex at the same rates, or percentages, as western European kids, but our kids appear not to be using contraception as much resulting in more teen pregnancies.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Do you have some sort of proof of this?

Here's one source that shows opinion poll results on a variety of issues...
http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/catholicsandchoice/documents/Factstellthestoryweb.pdf

 

[onel0126]

I recommend you don't hold your breath. I would further recommend, you provide solid arguments backed with data /citations to support your positions. You previously asserted that abortion was available "and even encouraged" in the SSA. The evidence is to the contrary. If you have been there, any personal observations would be anecdotal.

I don't care what you recommend. I have provided you with facts-from a predominantly catholic country in ssa. You are a hack. Probably never left the states. One of the most pro-abortion leaders to ever hold a leadership position in a ssa country (much less the world) just died this year. The whole world celebrated him. Still shaking my head. Certainly you've heard of him. I'm sure you mourned ol' Nelson like everyone else.

Data you say....

Permitted to protect the woman’s mental health as well as her life and physical health:

Botswana – R/I/F
Gambia
Ghana – R/I/F
Liberia – R/I/F Namibia – R/I/F
Sierra Leone
Swaziland – R/I/F

In addition to protecting the woman’s life and physical and mental health, permitted on socio- economic grounds, such as a woman’s economic resources, her age, marital status, and number of children:

Zambia – F

Without restriction as to reason (during first trimester):

Cape Verde
South Africa

Note: R – Abortion permitted in cases of rape I – Abortion permitted in cases of incest F – Abortion permitted in cases of fetal impairment SA – Spousal authorization required PA – Parental authorization/notification required + – Abortion permitted on additional enumerated grounds relat- ing to such factors as the woman’s age or capacity to care for a child Source: Center for Reproductive Rights, World’s Abortion Laws (2009).

 

[PsyOps]

Fair enough. We both understand why it's not effective. Some studies show US kids having sex at the same rates, or percentages, as western European kids, but our kids appear not to be using contraception as much resulting in more teen pregnancies.

I don't think any sex-ed is all that effective, especially school-provided sex-ed. Home-taught sex-ed isn’t full-proof either; but I think that’s where the responsibility lies, not in our schools. I teach my kids abstinence first. I convey the message that if you want to avoid getting pregnant or getting a girl pregnant, the only way to avoid this is to not have sex. I couple this with long discussions about how life changes when you have a kid. Schools don’t do this. And the one thing school can’t provide in these discussions, that families/parents can, is love. Our children’s teachers don’t love our kids; not nearly in a way that a parent does.

 

[PsyOps]

Here's one source that shows opinion poll results on a variety of issues...
http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/catholicsandchoice/documents/Factstellthestoryweb.pdf

It seems this poll is a little deceptive...

A study of almost 9,500 women showed that Catholic women have abortions at the same rate as do other women: 28% of women who had an abortion self-identified as Catholic, while 27% of all women of reproductive age identified as such

It doesn't say "9500 Catholic women showed..."

A poll of almost 3,000 adults found that the views of Catholics on abortion are consistent with those of the rest of the population.

Not a poll of 3000 adult Catholics.

I found it interesting they threw this in the in the middle of the survey. So is this poll based on the views of people in general of Catholics? Or were they only Catholics surveyed? Hard to tell.

 

[Radiant1]

I don't hate religion, but I do despise the actions of religions. I have Catholic friends, who feel the same, that the RCC is complicit in of activities that worsen the problem in SSA.
Btw, when I provide a fair source that talks to many causal factors, I don't expect it to be cherry-picked. We both agree there are many causal factors. We just happen to disagree that the RCC is complicit in more disease when it comes to discouraging birth control, especially condoms. Also, for the woman who is HIV positive, female birth control prevents more babies being born with AIDS.

Yes, we disagree that the Catholic Church is complicit in spreading AIDS. Again, if they are responsible, then you as well for promoting non-fool-proof condom use to people who admit they won't use them anyway.

What's interesting to me, is that you insist that Catholics are not going to follow Catholic teaching on abstinence and are going to have sex regardless, but yet those same Catholics somehow and miraculously follow the teaching on birth control. Also interesting is that you praise Melinda Gates and catholicsforchoice.org for their individual choice, but yet criticize me for laying the spread of AIDS on individual choice. (I'm guessing individual choice is only praise worthy if it's in agreement with you.) You then go as far as to tell me I'm looking at this through a doctrinal lens, which would be hilarious if it weren't so sad because it's actually the contrary. Wth? You have inconsistencies that need to be addressed, and you need to ask yourself why they exist.

Truly, I don't care what your beliefs or non-beliefs are; however, if and when I see you publicly make some asinine and grossly misleading statement that you can't even begin to prove, you can bet I'm going to call you out on it.

 

[hotcoffee]

And.... just think.... while the church today is discussing birth control and marriage.... the first church "The Way" was discussing circumcision. One of the many benefits of circumcision is cleanliness. Then again.... when a grown man is circumcised.... they are helpless for days. Israel attacked an enemy after talking them into circumcision.... killed 'em all while they were helpless.

We shouldn't be fighting over who's preaching is right as much as we should be talking about how to spread the News.... right?

 

[Radiant1]

We shouldn't be fighting over who's preaching is right as much as we should be talking about how to spread the News.... right?

I think you missed the boat on this one, hun. It is/was a discussion with an Atheist, or at least someone who dislikes religion. I don't think he's going to be talking with us on how to spread the Good News.