Throupling anyone?

[ProximaCentauri]

And there is where you lost it. You spin off about how rational ProximaCentauri is, then go on and condemn people for having beliefs that are contrary to yours. You accuse them of what you are guilty of. Way to exhibit true close-mindedness and intolerance.

Hey now, don't hate-on the only voice of reason I've heard here, and it's the pot calling the kettle black. We're all pots and kettles here in the good ole SOMD forums anyway.

 

[PsyOps]

Dude- you are making WAY too much sense to be on this particular forum. I appreciate what you are attempting- but they are too far gone. Its hopeless but I give you a lot of credit for even wanting to try to cure them of the poison they've seeped in all their lives. It *is tantamount to child abuse- and we see what it leads to. Fight the good fight but walk away shaking your head in the end.

And again you show what little tolerance and open-mindedness you have for those you disagree with. If you have kids, I’m almost feeling sorry for them having to tolerate your belligerent negativity. You do realize that is a form of child abuse. What if one of your kids becomes a Christian?

 

[PsyOps]

Hey now, don't hate-on the only voice of reason I've heard here, and it's the pot calling the kettle black. We're all pots and kettles here in the good ole SOMD forums anyway.

You're certainly not going to hear me tell you that you’ve allowed poison to seep into your life, or that what you believe is akin to child abuse. We can debate the differences of religion, and that lack of, without the inflammatory hatred. I respect your opinion all the way up until you get personal. LostNFound has made it clear he/she has no desire for respectful debate or tolerance for anyone that doesn’t believe that way he/she does.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

And again you show what little tolerance and open-mindedness you have for those you disagree with. If you have kids, I’m almost feeling sorry for them having to tolerate your belligerent negativity. You do realize that is a form of child abuse. What if one of your kids becomes a Christian?

Sorry, there can be no open-mindedness or tolerance of religious extremism. Especially for Christianity and Islam, it usually leads to violence.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

You're certainly not going to hear me tell you that you’ve allowed poison to seep into your life, or that what you believe is akin to child abuse. We can debate the differences of religion, and that lack of, without the inflammatory hatred. I respect your opinion all the way up until you get personal. LostNFound has made it clear he/she has no desire for respectful debate or tolerance for anyone that doesn’t believe that way he/she does.

Again, pot & kettle mentality. And it seems we are all guilty at times of making statements we wish we could take back.

 

[PsyOps]

Again, pot & kettle mentality. And it seems we are all guilty at times of making statements we wish we could take back.

Are you speaking for LostNFound? I'm waiting for him/her to take it back.

 

[PsyOps]

Sorry, there can be no open-mindedness or tolerance of religious extremism. Especially for Christianity and Islam, it usually leads to violence.

I don't get that LostNFound was referring only to extremists. And if he/she is not, I'd consider his/her comments quite extreme.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I don't get that LostNFound was referring only to extremists. And if he/she is not, I'd consider his/her comments quite extreme.

Right, as you said, it would be better for he/she to respond. I'll try to stay out of it unless you want to engage with me personally on any of this, it's been a long thread with lots of tangents.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Unsupportable? Let's start with just one country in SSA that has a predominantly "Catholic" population--Mozambique. From the Guttenmacher Institute, "Mozambique has had one of the most liberal de facto systems of abortion on request in Sub-Saharan Africa. Nevertheless, clandestine abortions, performed by curettage or with the use of herbal and other nonpatent abortifacients, remain common. These procedures constitute a major cause of maternal morbidity and mortality, and further strain the already scarce resources of the health care system."

Continuing, "This analysis is based on information from women requesting abortions at the largest hospital in Greater Maputo. Maputo is in many respects typical of large and rapidly growing Sub-Saharan cities."

Again, I use published data and real world experience to defend my claims here--something you should appreciate.

When I say the RCC doesn't have a significant presence in SSA, for clarification I wasn't referring to number of adherents to the faith, more referring to as I said later in the post--SSA not exactly the hotbed of Catholicism culturally speaking.

Here's an interactive map of the world showing abortion law for all countries. Sub-Saharan Africa appears to have some of the most restrictive Abortion laws in the world. I will not vouch for the accuracy of the source, if you think you have a more accurate source, post it - but include all the SSA countries.

http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/

 

[Radiant1]

Sorry, that second statement is just ridiculous and has no connection with the first. Humans will continue to have sex, and plenty of it, it’s a biological thing not a biblical thing.

Actually, sex is both a biological thing and a biblical thing. Are you denying that people either fail to use condoms or choose not to use them? Your own citations regarding sub-Saharan African men says as much.

You are way beyond ‘reaching’ with this conclusion. Studies do not bear this out, do a little research. Birth control is always the more pragmatic approach and always resulting in less unwanted pregnancies.

We weren't discussing unwanted pregnancy but rather the spread of AIDS, which is the subject you brought up with regards to the Church (post #32).

The Catholic church as a decided influence on SSA Catholics. Just what do you suppose the SSA RCC clergy is telling the 171 Million faithful? Somehow I don't think they are teaching them the value of contraception for the prevention of unwanted pregnancies and HIV/AIDS.

No shit, rather they teach them the value of abstinence instead in order to prevent pregnancy and AIDS.

If you'd give it any rational thought, you'd realize you can't hang this thing on the attitudes and promiscuity of African men. Multiple partners and failure to use condoms is not unique to African men only, it is a cultural issue in many countries, including the United States.

I have given it rational thought and I most certainly can hang the spread of AIDS on promiscuous persons no matter who they are or where they be. We just happened to be talking about SSA not the USA.

I would suggest that you do more research on the topic, rather than rattle off opinions in an effort to prove the Catholic dogma solution is valid.

I wasn't attempting to prove the "Catholic dogma solution is valid" regarding the spread of AIDS. Frankly, I don't think that solution any more effective than telling someone to use a condom (because neither are very pragmatic). The only thing I set out to do was disprove your assertion that "Catholics are contributing to the death rates in Sub-Saharan Africa" and point out that the individuals who make their own choices are. In addition, I pointed out to you that if the Church is evil for it's teaching on abstinence and birth control, then surely you are for your tacit approval of promiscuous sex regarding a people who would never use the damn condom anyway by their own admission. And no, the comparison between the Church and you is not a stretch.

And it seems we are all guilty at times of making statements we wish we could take back.

Do you have any statements you'd like to take back?

 

[PsyOps]

No shit, rather they teach them the value of abstinence instead in order to prevent pregnancy and AIDS.

I’m not really sure why we have such a widespread rejection of teaching abstinence in this country. As smart as we have become, you’d think our society would have figured out that this is the only full-proof means to prevent pregnancy and STDs. I’m not suggesting teaching it will glean 100% results; but not teaching it hasn’t been very effective.

I think folks interpret having abstinence taught akin to having one’s morals shoved down our throats. And we all know morals are really bad for a civilized society.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Actually, sex is both a biological thing and a biblical thing. Are you denying that people either fail to use condoms or choose not to use them? Your own citations regarding sub-Saharan African men says as much.



We weren't discussing unwanted pregnancy but rather the spread of AIDS, which is the subject you brought up with regards to the Church (post #32).



No shit, rather they teach them the value of abstinence instead in order to prevent pregnancy and AIDS.



I have given it rational thought and I most certainly can hang the spread of AIDS on promiscuous persons no matter who they are or where they be. We just happened to be talking about SSA not the USA.



I wasn't attempting to prove the "Catholic dogma solution is valid" regarding the spread of AIDS. Frankly, I don't think that solution any more effective than telling someone to use a condom (because neither are very pragmatic). The only thing I set out to do was disprove your assertion that "Catholics are contributing to the death rates in Sub-Saharan Africa" and point out that the individuals who make their own choices are. In addition, I pointed out to you that if the Church is evil for it's teaching on abstinence and birth control, then surely you are for your tacit approval of promiscuous sex regarding a people who would never use the damn condom anyway by their own admission. And no, the comparison between the Church and you is not a stretch.



Do you have any statements you'd like to take back?

No statements I feel the need to take back. You? Someday you may, should you ever decide to ####-can that dogmatic lens you have been viewing the world through.

Yeah, the Vatican is not complicit in the deaths of millions of Africans because those sinning bastards had it coming to them anyway. If they had simply abstained they would not be dead or dying right now. Contraception doesn’t always work, and the Church says its use is evil and sinful anyway. And all those babies being born with AIDS, hey, it’s just a result of their being born into sin, so they have it coming to them as well.

Oh, and not to forget, the Pope is infallible, crackers and grape juice really can be changed into Christ’s flesh and blood, and those body parts of dead ‘saints’ have magical powers.

But to end with a positive thought, Pope Francis is showing some signs of being human. There could still be hope for this Pope.

 

[Radiant1]

No statements I feel the need to take back. You? Someday you may, should you ever decide to ####-can that dogmatic lens you have been viewing the world through.

.
No; and maybe, maybe not.

Yeah, the Vatican is not complicit in the deaths of millions of Africans because those sinning bastards had it coming to them anyway. If they had simply abstained they would not be dead or dying right now. Contraception doesn’t always work, and the Church says its use is evil and sinful anyway. And all those babies being born with AIDS, hey, it’s just a result of their being born into sin, so they have it coming to them as well.

Did you really just resort to some sort of emotional outburst? Your statements are both irrational and untrue. EVEN IF what you said was true, which it's not BUT IF, it still would not prove your claim that the Catholic Church is "contributing to the death rates in Sub-Saharan Africa".

 

[PsyOps]

No statements I feel the need to take back. You? Someday you may, should you ever decide to ####-can that dogmatic lens you have been viewing the world through.

So when you wrote this:

And it seems we are all guilty at times of making statements we wish we could take back.

you didn't really mean YOU. Talk about a dogmatic view of YOUR world.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

.
No; and maybe, maybe not.



Did you really just resort to some sort of emotional outburst? Your statements are both irrational and untrue. EVEN IF what you said was true, which it's not BUT IF, it still would not prove your claim that the Catholic Church is "contributing to the death rates in Sub-Saharan Africa".

As you recall, assuming you were paying attention to the issue then, in 2009, Pope Benedict initially proclaimed that condoms would worsen the spread of HIV/AIDS in Sub-Saharan Africa. Of course this stance sparked outrage in much of the world health community. Both the World Health Organization and the US Center for Disease Control have advocated for better supply of contraceptives (especially condoms), and education on the importance of their usage, to stem the tide of the HIV/AIDS crises.

In 2010, Benedict reversed field on this, but much damage had been done leading up to 2010, and even after the softening of the Vatican's stance, change was slow to occur in Sub-Saharan Africa. The article I site below, I think you will find fairly written as it does not lay all the blame at the feet of the RCC, but talks to many causal factors. But take note of the AIDS relief workers statements regarding mysterious missing shipments of condoms and nun's refusal to order them.

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2012/12/the-catholic-church-condoms-and-hiv-aids-in-africa/

 

[Radiant1]

As you recall, assuming you were paying attention to the issue then, in 2009, Pope Benedict initially proclaimed that condoms would worsen the spread of HIV/AIDS in Sub-Saharan Africa. Of course this stance sparked outrage in much of the world health community. Both the World Health Organization and the US Center for Disease Control have advocated for better supply of contraceptives (especially condoms), and education on the importance of their usage, to stem the tide of the HIV/AIDS crises.

In 2010, Benedict reversed field on this, but much damage had been done leading up to 2010, and even after the softening of the Vatican's stance, change was slow to occur in Sub-Saharan Africa. The article I site below, I think you will find fairly written as it does not lay all the blame at the feet of the RCC, but talks to many causal factors. But take note of the AIDS relief workers statements regarding mysterious missing shipments of condoms and nun's refusal to order them.

http://churchandstate.org.uk/2012/12/the-catholic-church-condoms-and-hiv-aids-in-africa/

Can you seriously be missing my point or are you being deliberately obtuse? Let me dumb it down for you. Catholics teach abstinence to prevent AIDS. You teach condoms to prevent AIDS. Neither is effective. But none of that matters in light of the fact that PEOPLE MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES. Catholics don't brainwash people. You don't brainwash people. Catholics aren't responsible for people failing to abstain or failing to use a condom, and neither are you.

You know, since you're more or less an Atheist who narrowly defines himself as Agnostic who has what apparently is a hatred for any religion and proclaims himself a humanist (secular humanist would be more accurate), I would think you would appreciate the individual responsibility here. If, as the majority of secular humanists believe, that individuals are capable of ethics and morality without the God factor, then why the hell are you laying the blame for AIDS in Africa at the feet of the Catholic Church and not the individual? Or, is it that you truly do believe that sub-Saharan Africans are too stupid to make their own decisions and somehow the Catholic Church is the one doing it for them? Are you insane?

Quoted from the article you cited above:

“Nobody ever told me that I don’t use a condom because of the pope, or because the church said I shouldn’t,” says Simpson, author of Boys to Men in the Shadow of AIDS: Masculinities and HIV Risk in Zambia. “They don’t use condoms because they don’t like condoms.” That echoes the conventional wisdom other development workers repeat: that “men don’t use condoms in Zambia”—as in many other African countries—for a variety of cultural factors, including personal preference, gender inequalities that prevent women from demanding condom use, and widespread homophobia that suppresses open discussion of gay health issues.

And btw, nuns shouldn't be forced to order condoms anymore than you should be forced to receive communion.

No doubt AIDS is a travesty wherever it's found, but you have to prove that the Catholic Church is responsible for it in Africa or anywhere else for that matter. Or in other words, your preposterous assertion remains unsupported and you're starting to look kind of stupid by maintaining it.

I have some health issues I need to tend to and will be gone for a couple days, so by all means you will have the last word between us on this issue. I've already made my points and said all I have to say about it anyway, not to mention I'm getting tired of repeating myself. Enjoy.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Can you seriously be missing my point or are you being deliberately obtuse? Let me dumb it down for you. Catholics teach abstinence to prevent AIDS. You teach condoms to prevent AIDS. Neither is effective. But none of that matters in light of the fact that PEOPLE MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES. Catholics don't brainwash people. You don't brainwash people. Catholics aren't responsible for people failing to abstain or failing to use a condom, and neither are you.

You know, since you're more or less an Atheist who narrowly defines himself as Agnostic who has what apparently is a hatred for any religion and proclaims himself a humanist (secular humanist would be more accurate), I would think you would appreciate the individual responsibility here. If, as the majority of secular humanists believe, that individuals are capable of ethics and morality without the God factor, then why the hell are you laying the blame for AIDS in Africa at the feet of the Catholic Church and not the individual? Or, is it that you truly do believe that sub-Saharan Africans are too stupid to make their own decisions and somehow the Catholic Church is the one doing it for them? Are you insane?

Quoted from the article you cited above:


And btw, nuns shouldn't be forced to order condoms anymore than you should be forced to receive communion.

No doubt AIDS is a travesty wherever it's found, but you have to prove that the Catholic Church is responsible for it in Africa or anywhere else for that matter. Or in other words, your preposterous assertion remains unsupported and you're starting to look kind of stupid by maintaining it.

I have some health issues I need to tend to and will be gone for a couple days, so by all means you will have the last word between us on this issue. I've already made my points and said all I have to say about it anyway, not to mention I'm getting tired of repeating myself. Enjoy.

Well at least you got some vitriol out of your system with that post - maybe it will help with your health. Yes, how self-aware you are that you recognize you are making the same argument over and over, that Catholics and all individuals make their own choices. How convenient for the Catholic Church. They can never do any wrong by that argument. This clears them of any complicity in the inquisition as well. It was the heretics 'choice'; he could have accepted Catholicism. It wasn't the RCC's fault he had to get burned at the stake. That was his choice. Send your logic to the Vatican, they could use it.

To say that your logic shows a spectacular lack of compassion, understates it. Fortunately, many Catholics, including Melinda Gates, are not using the same 'logic' you espouse when evaluating the complexities of the issue, understanding the gravity of the human tragedy there, and what should be done about it. Don't know if you watched the interview with Gates, but her resolve to do something about this, against the doctrine of the Vatican, is to be admired and applauded. And it's not just her, here's another link to CatholicsforChoice.org, see 'Condoms4Life' link in HIV&AIDS. These Catholics prove that dogma does not necessarily have to rot your brain, unless you let it.

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/hivaids/default.asp

 

[onel0126]

Well at least you got some vitriol out of your system with that post - maybe it will help with your health. Yes, how self-aware you are that you recognize you are making the same argument over and over, that Catholics and all individuals make their own choices. How convenient for the Catholic Church. They can never do any wrong by that argument. This clears them of any complicity in the inquisition as well. It was the heretics 'choice'; he could have accepted Catholicism. It wasn't the RCC's fault he had to get burned at the stake. That was his choice. Send your logic to the Vatican, they could use it. To say that your logic shows a spectacular lack of compassion, understates it. Fortunately, many Catholics, including Melinda Gates, are not using the same 'logic' you espouse when evaluating the complexities of the issue, understanding the gravity of the human tragedy there, and what should be done about it. Don't know if you watched the interview with Gates, but her resolve to do something about this, against the doctrine of the Vatican, is to be admired and applauded. And it's not just her, here's another link to CatholicsforChoice.org, see 'Condoms4Life' link in HIV&AIDS. These Catholics prove that dogma does not necessarily have to rot your brain, unless you let it. http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/topics/hivaids/default.asp

Herein lies an issue that boggles my mind. If you are going to claim to be Catholic but not adhere to the doctrines of the Church, why be Catholic?Become an Episcapagan.

Are you listening Biden, Pelosi, Gates.....?

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Herein lies an issue that boggles my mind. If you are going to claim to be Catholic but not adhere to the doctrines of the Church, why be Catholic?Become an Episcapagan.

Are you listening Biden, Pelosi, Gates.....?

This should not be surprising to you. The vast majority of Catholics do not believe in or practice many tenets of the faith.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I’m not really sure why we have such a widespread rejection of teaching abstinence in this country. As smart as we have become, you’d think our society would have figured out that this is the only full-proof means to prevent pregnancy and STDs. I’m not suggesting teaching it will glean 100% results; but not teaching it hasn’t been very effective.

I think folks interpret having abstinence taught akin to having one’s morals shoved down our throats. And we all know morals are really bad for a civilized society.

You really should do a little research on the subject regarding the efficacy of abstinence only sex education. Studies have shown it to be it to be ineffective. The United States continues to leads all industrialized nations of the world in teen pregnancy rate. Sex education is primarily left up to states and even local school districts to determine. It is very watered down compared to what the rest of the "First World" kids get; teaching and promoting contraceptive use is still very controversial here, not so in other industrialized nations. US States that do the worst job of sex education or teach primarily abstinence-only sex education - we're talking Bible Belt states here - have the highest teen pregnancy rates.