Was Christ Who He Said He Was?

[libby]

Well, murder sentences are for (lets say) life. That's what? 80 years at the most?

Vs. eternity in hell. Eternity is so big the human mind can't begin to measure it. So, you can get an eternity in hell for as little not outright worshiping god according to some (even on these boards).

How does that sound?

Also, since no one has literally spoken with god (spoken to, sure, but not with) there is really no guarentee anyone is doing this right?

Just look at the posts on this board for an example. Starman disagrees with Toxick on some things who disagrees with Marie on some things who disagrees with Me on some things who disagrees with This person on some things, and everyone disagrees with JPC.

According to just about everyone on these boards (well this part of them) everyone else will end up spending time uncharted and unfathomable in hell.

But everyones own story is right right?

Heh.

As to that which I bolded, it is a matter of willful disobedience.
For the rest of what you posted, that is, the disagreement among the Bible Christians, you will find my take on that long, and it's probably for another thread.
The short version, though, is that there is absolute Truth. It is knowable through the authority Christ established in the Catholic Church.
If anyone cares to join me in a thread to explore that topic, I'll join in. If not, we'll just leave it at that, with the free will to agree or disagree.

 

[Xaquin44]

As to that which I bolded, it is a matter of willful disobedience.

If free will can only be employed when it will earn us eternity in hell it isn't exactly free is it?


Do what you want, just make sure you want what I say or you're ####ed?


If god hadn't wanted us to have and use our free will, he'd have been better served by not giving it to us.


Or, barring that, if he wanted us to believe, he should have given us some reasons aside from an old book written by man (of which there are millions).

edit: and you still didn't really address the fact that everyone knows they're right ....

 

[libby]

If free will can only be employed when it will earn us eternity in hell it isn't exactly free is it?


Do what you want, just make sure you want what I say or you're ####ed?


If god hadn't wanted us to have and use our free will, he'd have been better served by not giving it to us.


Or, barring that, if he wanted us to believe, he should have given us some reasons aside from an old book written by man (of which there are millions).

edit: and you still didn't really address the fact that everyone knows they're right ....

I'm sure you don't need to be told that love is not love without free will. The whole point of free will is for us to freely choose God and His ways, or our own ways, of living. Our free will determines Heaven or Hell. Many are happy to accept the eternal rewards of Heaven, but want to reject the reality of Hell.
Don't forget, that in the beginning we didn't suffer all that we do now. We have been "exiled" from Paradise until we make our choice, as Adam and Eve made theirs. That being said, God gives us so much love and happiness in this world, too, yet so many people don't believe in Him because of the notion that a loving God would not allow suffering. What about the good stuff? Does He get credit for that?
Also, you say that God would be "better served". Well, that's another point you are missing. He doesn't want to be slaves, He wants us to be sons and daughters.
If you have children you can see the difference between a child who obeys you out of love and respect, and a slave who obeys out of fear. The slave doesn't love his master.
As to not addressing how everyone knows they are right. I said I would if someone wants to start another thread.

 

[mAlice]

If you have children you can see the difference between a child who obeys you out of love and respect, and a slave who obeys out of fear. The slave doesn't love his master.

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Xaquin44]

I'm sure you don't need to be told that love is not love without free will. The whole point of free will is for us to freely choose God and His ways, or our own ways, of living. Our free will determines Heaven or Hell. Many are happy to accept the eternal rewards of Heaven, but want to reject the reality of Hell.
Don't forget, that in the beginning we didn't suffer all that we do now. We have been "exiled" from Paradise until we make our choice, as Adam and Eve made theirs. That being said, God gives us so much love and happiness in this world, too, yet so many people don't believe in Him because of the notion that a loving God would not allow suffering. What about the good stuff? Does He get credit for that?
Also, you say that God would be "better served". Well, that's another point you are missing. He doesn't want to be slaves, He wants us to be sons and daughters.
If you have children you can see the difference between a child who obeys you out of love and respect, and a slave who obeys out of fear. The slave doesn't love his master.
As to not addressing how everyone knows they are right. I said I would if someone wants to start another thread.

pfft. I'm sorry (I'm not), but not following rules (especially rules no one alive today can verify) for a few years should not by any means equate eternity in hell.

I'll say that if god is fair and just he will understand that, and if he isn't then we're bound to be screwed anyway.

 

[mAlice]

Sheol

In Hebrew, ²² Sheol (שאול, Sh'ol) is the "abode of the dead", the "underworld", "the common grave of humankind" or "pit".[1] In the Hebrew Bible, it is a place where both the bad and the good, slave and king, pious and wicked must go at the point of death.[2] Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.

Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. The word "hades" was in fact substituted for "sheol" when the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek (see Septuagint). The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to refer to the abode of the dead.

By the second century BC, Jews who accepted the Oral Torah had come to believe that those in sheol awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham) or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus' story of Lazarus and Dives. At that time Jews who rejected the Oral Torah believed that Sheol meant simply the grave.

Anglicans, who do not share a concept of "hades" with the Eastern Orthodox, have traditionally translated "sheol" (and "hades") as "hell" (for example in the King James Version). However, to avoid confusion of what are separate concepts in the Bible, modern English versions of the Bible tend either to transliterate the word sheol or to use an alternative term such as the "grave" (e.g. the NIV). Roman Catholics generally translate "sheol" as "death."

Sheol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JPC sr]

Deadbeat child support resister.

Does JPC believe there is no hell, or just that it doesn't last forever?

There is no Hell, no fire and no pain tormenting people for all eternity.

Jesus said of God and to mankind to "love thy enemies" link HERE and that God will do.

So, apply this to our offenses against God. We hurt and assault Him with our sins repeatedly, so what is the appropriate punishment based on His infinite goodness, righteousness, etc? Infinite hellfire.

God believes in forgiveness,

and Jesus paid the penalty and the punishment for all of mankind.

Jesus did not pay a partial payment, or just paid the penalty for the righteous, Jesus died for the sinners - the worst of the worse sinners are not in Hell but in forgiveness.

This all presupposes that the sinner is unrepentant, of course. I'm sure there are those who think His Infinite Love will save in the end, but that doesn't work either based on the aforementioned. Love demands discipline and justice, not a free for all.

Love does not support any Hell.

Here is how the Apostle Paul described it in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7:

verse 4: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

verse 5: It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

verse 6: Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

verse 7: It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Link HERE, NIV.
====

Love does not have a place of torment called "Hell" and what love does have is Jesus that saves all sinners, and Jesus paid the price in full for everybody.

It is unconditional love - demanding no choices, no conditions, nobody left out.

 

[libby]

pfft. I'm sorry (I'm not), but not following rules (especially rules no one alive today can verify) for a few years should not by any means equate eternity in hell.

I'll say that if god is fair and just he will understand that, and if he isn't then we're bound to be screwed anyway.

Well, I'm not trying to convince you, I'm not smart enough for that. I'm just trying to explain what I believe and why.

 

[libby]

There is no Hell, no fire and no pain tormenting people for all eternity.

Jesus said of God and to mankind to "love thy enemies" link HERE and that God will do.
God believes in forgiveness,

and Jesus paid the penalty and the punishment for all of mankind.

Jesus did not pay a partial payment, or just paid the penalty for the righteous, Jesus died for the sinners - the worst of the worse sinners are not in Hell but in forgiveness.
Love does not support any Hell.

Here is how the Apostle Paul described it in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7:

verse 4: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

verse 5: It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

verse 6: Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

verse 7: It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Link HERE, NIV.
====

Love does not have a place of torment called "Hell" and what love does have is Jesus that saves all sinners, and Jesus paid the price in full for everybody.

It is unconditional love - demanding no choices, no conditions, nobody left out.

If you do a cursory search of the word "hell" in Scripture, you will find that Jesus Himself refers to it more often than the rest of Scripture combined. 12 of the 14 hits at Bible Gateway are from the mouth of Christ. So was He exagerrating, or is He a liar?

 

[Xaquin44]

you're a pleasure to chat with


So are you who ever gave me that!

Thank you =)

 

[libby]

you're a pleasure to chat with


So are you who ever gave me that!

Thank you =)

tha'd be me

 

[Xaquin44]

tha'd be me

thank you kindly sir!

 

[JPC sr]

Deadbeat child support resister.

If you do a cursory search of the word "hell" in Scripture, you will find that Jesus Himself refers to it more often than the rest of Scripture combined. 12 of the 14 hits at Bible Gateway are from the mouth of Christ. So was He exagerrating, or is He a liar?

Those are just English translations of Greek words.

The old English word of "hell" only meant the common grave for dead bodies, and the English word "hell" is translated from the Hebrew and Greek words for the common grave for dead bodies.

So Jesus is only talking about death and being dead and not a firey place of torment for sinners.

Jesus forgives the sinners, and Jesus forgives the worst of the worse sinners as He forgives everyone.

No body asked for Jesus to be born, no one (except God) asked for Jesus to be crucified, no one asked for forgiveness, but Jesus sacrifice was for sinners and we are all sinners and no one is better then others based on accepting Jesus or not.

Salvation is a free gift from God through Christ link HERE.

 

[Marie]

Well reciting the words from a Christian dictionary that promotes the Orthodoxy certainly is not contradicting my point that Orthodoxy is completely wrong.

Hades - link HERE, the Greek God of the underworld.

Tartarus - link HERE, the Greek mythology of torment after death, but Jesus was not a Greek.

Gehenna - link HERE, meaning "Valley of Hinnom".

It is only a violent and unjust concept that could envision people burning in torment for all eternity.

Such a concept of the Orthodox "Hell" can not come out of loving thy enemies link HERE.

Its like your view of the bible, your only selecting one third of the defination and throwing away the other 2/3rds.

 

[libby]

Those are just English translations of Greek words.

The old English word of "hell" only meant the common grave for dead bodies, and the English word "hell" is translated from the Hebrew and Greek words for the common grave for dead bodies.

So Jesus is only talking about death and being dead and not a firey place of torment for sinners.

Jesus forgives the sinners, and Jesus forgives the worst of the worse sinners as He forgives everyone.

No body asked for Jesus to be born, no one (except God) asked for Jesus to be crucified, no one asked for forgiveness, but Jesus sacrifice was for sinners and we are all sinners and no one is better then others based on accepting Jesus or not.

Salvation is a free gift from God through Christ link HERE.

Soooo...all that talk of unquenchable fire, about a man being better off having never been born, about entering Heaven with one hand vs. damnation with two was what? In effect then, the nouns "Heaven" and "Hell" are virtually interchangable, and therefore meaningless.
This theology makes me think of the children that we've all seen out and about. The children that are completely unable to control themselves, and with parents unwilling to control them. We've heard parents making empty threats to try to coax good behavior from the kids, but the child has learned that all of the words are meaningless. Parents word is not backed up by any teaching/discipline. God's tells us there will be consequences, but I guess he's just throwing ping pong balls into the back of an aircraft carrier.

 

[JPC sr]

Deadbeat child support resister.

Soooo...all that talk of unquenchable fire, about a man being better off having never been born, about entering Heaven with one hand vs. damnation with two was what? In effect then, the nouns "Heaven" and "Hell" are virtually interchangable, and therefore meaningless.
This theology makes me think of the children that we've all seen out and about. The children that are completely unable to control themselves, and with parents unwilling to control them. We've heard parents making empty threats to try to coax good behavior from the kids, but the child has learned that all of the words are meaningless. Parents word is not backed up by any teaching/discipline. God's tells us there will be consequences, but I guess he's just throwing ping pong balls into the back of an aircraft carrier.

That is just taking it too far.

Like if a person commits murder then they are punished here and now. Either the police catch them and go to jail, and even if caught or not caught then that person lives a degenerate and degraded life unless they repent and make ammends.

People need saved in this world now - saved from addictions, saved from ignorance and fear, saved from evil, etc.

We do not escape from any sin because we recieve the effects instantly. We reap whatsoever we sow. A person that lies becomes a liar even if no one finds out.

But on Judgement Day then everyone will believe and everyone will get saved at that time.

The "lake of fire" is a positive upbuilding place as fire is a symbol for the Holy Spirit and the fire purifies and makes the sinner clean.

On Judgement Day we will all be sinners and we will all be forgiven by the blood of Christ.

Not even one dirty rotten sinful sheep will be lost or left out - not even one.

 

[JPC sr]

Deadbeat child support resister.

Its like your view of the bible, your only selecting one third of the defination and throwing away the other 2/3rds.

That is exactly the right way.

Take out the wrong junk and keep the correct stuff.

 

[libby]

That is just taking it too far.

Like if a person commits murder then they are punished here and now. Either the police catch them and go to jail, and even if caught or not caught then that person lives a degenerate and degraded life unless they repent and make ammends.

People need saved in this world now - saved from addictions, saved from ignorance and fear, saved from evil, etc.

We do not escape from any sin because we recieve the effects instantly. We reap whatsoever we sow. A person that lies becomes a liar even if no one finds out.

But on Judgement Day then everyone will believe and everyone will get saved at that time.

The "lake of fire" is a positive upbuilding place as fire is a symbol for the Holy Spirit and the fire purifies and makes the sinner clean.

On Judgement Day we will all be sinners and we will all be forgiven by the blood of Christ.

Not even one dirty rotten sinful sheep will be lost or left out - not even one.

Are you kidding?? The unrepentant? Those who believed Christ was the Messiah and opted not to do as He said? I think you must be trying to play devil's advocate, because everything Jesus said and did is drivel if "everyone gets saved in the end". That is also a serious injustice to everyone who has spent their lives in sacrifice and service to others for love of God.
How is an unrepentant person punished here in this life, especially if he's not caught? There are thousands of unsolved murders, so it's reasonable to assume that some of the perpetrators are living life, not having been picked up for some other crime.
What, pray tell, is "judgement" then? By definition there must be more than one thing for the judge to opt for.

 

[fredcaudle]

That is just taking it too far.

Like if a person commits murder then they are punished here and now. Either the police catch them and go to jail, and even if caught or not caught then that person lives a degenerate and degraded life unless they repent and make ammends.

People need saved in this world now - saved from addictions, saved from ignorance and fear, saved from evil, etc.

We do not escape from any sin because we recieve the effects instantly. We reap whatsoever we sow. A person that lies becomes a liar even if no one finds out.

But on Judgement Day then everyone will believe and everyone will get saved at that time.

The "lake of fire" is a positive upbuilding place as fire is a symbol for the Holy Spirit and the fire purifies and makes the sinner clean.

On Judgement Day we will all be sinners and we will all be forgiven by the blood of Christ.

Not even one dirty rotten sinful sheep will be lost or left out - not even one.

You write: "We do not escape from any sin because we recieve the effects instantly. We reap whatsoever we sow. A person that lies becomes a liar even if no one finds out. But on Judgement Day then everyone will believe and everyone will get saved at that time."

We reap whatever we sow... if we sow a life opposed to what God has said, we reap separation from Him. If we sow seeds opposed to Christ's salvation here and now - we reap not having salvation then.

"Today is the day of salvation"... it is "today" as long as it is called today - ie. judgment day is a different day, not today and so is not a salvation day but a day in which we reap what we have sown. Judgment and salvation are opposites, this is why Jesus cried out, "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken Me" - He was taking on our judgment and curse in order that we might be forgiven and saved. A person who rejects Jesus' word and work on the cross has to be their own judgment and curse. That judgment/curse is separation from the Kingdom of God.

Finally, you easily mock God with the words "I'll defy God"... really? Re-read Job, towards the end of the book and how God spoke to Job. Then those three friends that gave Job that wonderful advice... look at how God viewed their "wisdom".

 

[JPC sr]

Deadbeat child support resister.

What, pray tell, is "judgement" then? By definition there must be more than one thing for the judge to opt for.

Well that is the best question of them all and most people fail to seek out that answer.

The "Judgement" is not like the Judges and Judgements of human Courts and human laws.

The real definition of "Judgement" is given in the Bible in the book of Judges telling the Judges and Judgement means to give instructions concerning right and wrong.

The Godly judgements is not to condemn and curse people - the Judgements of God are for salvation and for righteousness.

Jesus even explained how Judgement Day would be a second chance for the dead link HERE.

Jesus and God are loving and compassionate and forgiving and they do not hurt and burn people for all eternity.