What is Islam?

[vraiblonde]

The irony is that people have been claiming that Islam is a violent religion, yet the entire course of this thread I have shown both textually that Islam condemns terrorism and historically that Islam didn't spread by force. However, there are people in this thread who openly advocate violence against Muslims for the sole reason that they are Muslim.

I do not advocate violence against Muslims in general. And let me tell you right off the bat that I am not a Christian, and I won't spout Christian rhetoric or use Jesus to form my opinion. I got no dog in the religious fight.

When the most visible Muslims in the world are the ones sawing some poor guy's head off and dragging dead bodies through the streets, chanting with joy, you can't hardly blame the viewing public if they get a negative impression of the religion. Especially when not only are said sawers and draggers doing it in the name of their religion, but their supposedly peaceful religion mates are deafeningly silent.

You say that some Muslims do condemn terrorism, and I believe you. I've seen it myself. But one would think that 1.8 BILLION people could drown out a few million. Unfortunately they don't seem to be doing so. So it's a natural assumption that the majority of those 1.8 BILLION don't have a problem with what the terrorists are doing, or they would certainly be able to drown them out.

Again, I give you Fred Phelps as a Christian example. Mr. Phelps claims to be a "man of God", yet his religion-mates are THE FIRST ONES to condemn him, loudly and without equivocation. They have absolutely no problem making their dissenting voices heard in protest of this man. Very few even think he's "got a point" - they not only despise his actions, but despise that he calls himself a "Christian". And there is not one single person who follows the news who has any doubt about how Christians feel about Mr. Phelps and his band of merry malcontents.

Can you say the same for Islam? No, you can't - because it doesn't happen in large enough numbers to make a firm statement. And Phelps isn't even killing anyone! He's protesting funerals!

If Muslims suffer from bad PR, it's their own fault for not speaking up and making their voices heard.

 

[abdulhaqq]

Dear Baja,

Which wars have been caused by Muslims?

Military Death Toll War Dates
1 20,000,000 Second World War 1937-45
2 8,500,000 First World War 1914-18
3 1,200,000 Korean War 1950-53
4 1,200,000 Chinese Civil War 1945-49
5 1,200,000 Vietnam War 1965-73
6 850,000 Iran-Iraq War 1980-88
7 800,000 Russian Civil War 1918-21
8 400,000 Chinese Civil War 1927-37
9 385,000 French Indochina 1945-54
10 200,000 Mexican Revolution 1911-20
10 200,000 Spanish Civil War 1936-39
12 160,000 French-Algerian War 1954-62
13 150,000 Afghanistan 1980-89
14 130,000 Russo-Japanese War 1904-05
15 100,000 Riffian War 1921-26
15 100,000 First Sudanese Civil War 1956-72
15 100,000 Russo-Polish War 1919-20
15 100,000 Biafran War 1967-70
19 90,000 Chaco War 1932-35
20 75,000 Abyssinian War 1935-36

The only wars involving Muslims were:
- The Iran-Iraq War
- The French-Algerian war
- Afghanistan
- The First Sudanese Civil war
- Abyssinian War

Lets examine these in more detail:
- The Iran and Iraq was instigated by the US. We used Saddam Hussein, who was then our ally, by giving him biological and chemical weapons which he used to attack Iran which had undergone a revolution as a reaction against a dictator we installed after the CIA had assassinated his democratically elected predecessor. In fact, we not only supported the Iraqis, but were giving weapons to both sides. This became known as 'The Iran-Contra Scandal'.

- Afghanistan - the cause of the war was the soviet union attacking afghanistan, not the other way around.

- The French-Algerian War was a war of independence against French imperialism that left 70,000 Muslims dead.

- the sudanese first civil war occured when the government alternated between fascist and communist governments, not islamic ones.

- The abyssinian war was between Italy which invaded this region and attempted to colonize it. Hardly the works of Muslims, eh?

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

 

[Kain99]

You are absolutely right, my friend.

I truly understand your cause but we watched our brothers flesh burn and bleed before our eyes.

This is going to take understanding on both sides.

DUDE!!!!! You completely ignored my post! "Gentle goes the dove."

 

[Pete]

Dear Pete, Baja, et al,

Its a pity that some people can't use their intellect in discussions, but have to resort to blind faith and smear campaigns. These tactics won't weaken my resolve to present my faith in an unbiased fashion.

What's the matter? Can't use your mind to defend your claims?

The irony is that people have been claiming that Islam is a violent religion, yet the entire course of this thread I have shown both textually that Islam condemns terrorism and historically that Islam didn't spread by force. However, there are people in this thread who openly advocate violence against Muslims for the sole reason that they are Muslim.



With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

And in this thread I have presented example after example after example of organized, sanctioned brutality the West has endured at the hands of Muslim terrorists.

I do not refute what the qu'ran says. I believe you totally that it condemns terrorism, what I am saying is terrorism is ignored, sanctioned and cheered despite what you and the qu'ran states.

For the record, I have not uttered a single word of threat in any way towards Muslims. I respect your right to speak about or practise your religion however you wish. Conversely you have to respect my right to think you are trying to pass of something for what it is not.

 

[abdulhaqq]

I do not advocate violence against Muslims in general. And let me tell you right off the bat that I am not a Christian, and I won't spout Christian rhetoric or use Jesus to form my opinion. I got no dog in the religious fight.

When the most visible Muslims in the world are the ones sawing some poor guy's head off and dragging dead bodies through the streets, chanting with joy, you can't hardly blame the viewing public if they get a negative impression of the religion. Especially when not only are said sawers and draggers doing it in the name of their religion, but their supposedly peaceful religion mates are deafeningly silent.

You say that some Muslims do condemn terrorism, and I believe you. I've seen it myself. But one would think that 1.8 BILLION people could drown out a few million. Unfortunately they don't seem to be doing so. So it's a natural assumption that the majority of those 1.8 BILLION don't have a problem with what the terrorists are doing, or they would certainly be able to drown them out.

Again, I give you Fred Phelps as a Christian example. Mr. Phelps claims to be a "man of God", yet his religion-mates are THE FIRST ONES to condemn him, loudly and without equivocation. They have absolutely no problem making their dissenting voices heard in protest of this man. Very few even think he's "got a point" - they not only despise his actions, but despise that he calls himself a "Christian". And there is not one single person who follows the news who has any doubt about how Christians feel about Mr. Phelps and his band of merry malcontents.

Can you say the same for Islam? No, you can't - because it doesn't happen in large enough numbers to make a firm statement. And Phelps isn't even killing anyone! He's protesting funerals!

If Muslims suffer from bad PR, it's their own fault for not speaking up and making their voices heard.

Dear Vraiblonde,

You raise some very potent points.

Firstly, I feel that there are several explanations to account for the lack of a good public relations response.

One explanation, and this is probably the strongest, is that Islam doesn't have a 'church'. Islam is an organized religion, but it lacks a corporate entity that is considered 'orthodox' and authoritative. In Islam, any person who is educated in Islamic theology and jurisprudence is a representative of our faith. We don't have a 'pope' or a vatican. Makkah and Madinah are holy places of worship, they aren't centers of power or clergy. Since God is directly accessible to believers, we don't believe in the need for a clergy. If we want to repent, we repent directly. Any Muslim can lead prayers or give a sermon, etc.

Another possible explanation is the weak nature of post-colonial states. Almost every single Muslim state today was a former colony. Many of these states had a hard time standing up after they were granted independence. Either these states lacked a centralized government or their government was too centralized, each of which isn't conducive to the free exchange of information within a society. In a lot of Muslim countries, the media was either a state-run enterprise or a corporate operation run by powerful families that had a lot of influence on the state. The invention and widespread use of the internet, of course, is breaking down many boundaries.

In my opinion, actions speak louder than words.

I previously published an article about a Muslim informer who infiltrated a terrorist cell in Canada.

My fiancee works for a company that translates Arabic documents from Iraq in order to identify security threats, which it then passes on to other intelligence agencies.

I don't think its true that Muslims aren't doing enough in the war on terrorism. Just today, the Pakistani government attacked an Al Qaeda school.

If you read the news objectively, a reasonable observer would conclude that many Muslims have been actively working against terrorism within the Muslim world.

As was stated before, there are over 1.4 billion Muslims in the world. Their is an extreme, but vocal minority. They thrive not because of our faith, but the absence of our faith. They twist our scripture in order to justify their wicked and obscene political ends. This cancer within our community is being weeded out as we speak.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

 

[abdulhaqq]

DUDE!!!!! You completely ignored my post! "Gentle goes the dove."

Dear Kain,

Whoops! My bad! Sorry, there were a lot posts within the past 24 hours.

I agree. We have a lot more in common than people would imagine. The only way true dialogue and discourse can occur is if people drop the hate and listen to what the other party is saying.

Thats what the beauty of America is. We can have this discussion, we can be critical, and we can be passionate, and at the end of the day, we're all brothers of this land.

With Peace,

Abdulhaqq

 

[abdulhaqq]

And in this thread I have presented example after example after example of organized, sanctioned brutality the West has endured at the hands of Muslim terrorists.

I do not refute what the qu'ran says. I believe you totally that it condemns terrorism, what I am saying is terrorism is ignored, sanctioned and cheered despite what you and the qu'ran states.

For the record, I have not uttered a single word of threat in any way towards Muslims. I respect your right to speak about or practise your religion however you wish. Conversely you have to respect my right to think you are trying to pass of something for what it is not.

Dear Pete,

Who started the Crusades?
Who did the Inquisition?
Who exterminated the Native Americans, enslaved them, and forced them into Christianity?
Who enslaved Africans, brought them into America, and forced them into Christianity?
Who participated in the Rwandan genocide?
Who started both World Wars?
Who fought in Vietnam?
Who overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran and replaced it with a dictatorship that caused a revolution that established the current regime?
Who supported Iraq and gave it biological and chemical weapons which it used on Iran, which given weapons by the same country?

What about this:
Afghan American mother shot at point-blank range say only motive they can imagine for anyone wanting her dead was the garment of her faith, her head scarf
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/21/BAGMTLTGM51.DTL


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're naive, not ignorant.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

 

[Kain99]

Kain, I appreciate what you are trying to do, but you got to take the rose colored glasses off. That's not this persons agenda. They're sticking pins and needles. There are times you just have to fight fire with fire. Sad, but true.

Lovey dovey, just does not work. Not with these guys.

This stuff scares me. I want to beleive that he means what he says. I work with 27 Muslims everyday. They don't seem to hate me.

 

[Pete]

Dear Pete,

I'm not sure what your level of reading is, but perhaps you should spend more time reading the news:news.

I await your response on the refutation of the trinity, unless you want to base your belief in blind faith and not reason.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

PS: If it seems that I am harsh with you, I apologize. However, if you are going to aggressively make false claims about my faith, I will politely but aggressively refute your claims using logic and proof, not blind faith and slander.

I don't need links to British newspapers, I thank you for providing them though.

You shall be waiting a long time for me to discuss the trinity. You see I am agnostic I am not even considered Christian so you cannot poke me with that barb. I base my belief in what I see, read and witness. Have you ever been to Saudi Arabia? Jeddah? Mecca?

I have not slandered anyone or anything. I have not said one untruth.

Is this not the body of Theo Van Gogh?
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/dpete2q/Gogh126.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>

Are those not knives in his body because he was critical of Islam?

Did Hezbollah not kidnap and then rocket Israeli towns?

Is Hamas not dedicated to the destruction of Israel?

Did Saddam not launch SCUD missiles unprovoked into Israel?

Has not the president of Iran said Israel should be wiped off the map?

have their not been demonstrations in Egypt, Syria, Iran where they called America the "great Satan" and burned our flag?

Did Syria, Jordan and Egypt not invade Israel?

Did Salmonde Rushdie not have to go into hiding because of death threats and a fatwa issued?

Did Al Qaeda not blow up 3 of our embassies?

Did Al Qaeda not blow up the USS Cole?

Did Al Qaeda high jack 4 US aircraft and kill over 3,000 people in NYC, DC and PA?

Where have I lied? You do not have a problem with faith, your religion has a PR problem because you are here ex halting the peacefulness of Islam while your brothers are committing horrible murders.

 

[vraiblonde]

Who started the Crusades?

I give up - who?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade

When originally conceptualized, the aim was to recapture Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims

 

[Kain99]

It is kinda funny, that the Muslim guy views us all as Catholic.

 

[Pete]

Dear Pete,

Who started the Crusades?
Who did the Inquisition?
Who exterminated the Native Americans, enslaved them, and forced them into Christianity?
Who enslaved Africans, brought them into America, and forced them into Christianity?
Who participated in the Rwandan genocide?
Who started both World Wars?
Who fought in Vietnam?
Who overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran and replaced it with a dictatorship that caused a revolution that established the current regime?
Who supported Iraq and gave it biological and chemical weapons which it used on Iran, which given weapons by the same country?

What about this:
Afghan American mother shot at point-blank range say only motive they can imagine for anyone wanting her dead was the garment of her faith, her head scarf
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/21/BAGMTLTGM51.DTL


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're naive, not ignorant.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

I thank you for assuming I'm naive and not ignorant. You know what, you are a miserable wretch. You cannot convince me, I give you real examples why so in typical liberal fashion you insult me.

You examples above are non sequitor with the discussion at hand. I just gave you numerous modern examples and you come back with the Inquisition? The crusades? How does something that happened 900 years ago between Muslims and Europeans have anyting to do with the WTC?

You be happy being a Muslim, you go ahead and try to convince people it is the only one true religion, you go ahead and ignore the hundreds of examples of outright terrorism perpetuated by Muslims world wide in the last 50 years in the name of Allah. I will just sit here pointing the bottom of my foot at you and fry up some pork chops for us to share.

If you are the best Islam has to offer for "graciously" offering Islam I think they need to go back and find more recruits because you are not very good at it.

 

[vraiblonde]

Dear Vraiblonde,

You raise some very potent points.

Firstly, I feel that there are several explanations to account for the lack of a good public relations response.

One explanation, and this is probably the strongest, is that Islam doesn't have a 'church'. Christianity doesn't have a 'church' either Islam is an organized religion, but it lacks a corporate entity that is considered 'orthodox' and authoritative. In Islam, any person who is educated in Islamic theology and jurisprudence is a representative of our faith. Yep, sounds like Christianity to me We don't have a 'pope' or a vatican. Makkah and Madinah are holy places of worship, they aren't centers of power or clergy. Not all Christians are Catholics Since God is directly accessible to believers, we don't believe in the need for a clergy. If we want to repent, we repent directly. Any Muslim can lead prayers or give a sermon, etc.

Another possible explanation is the weak nature of post-colonial states. Almost every single Muslim state today was a former colony. Imagine that! So was the US! Many of these states had a hard time standing up after they were granted independence. Either these states lacked a centralized government or their government was too centralized, each of which isn't conducive to the free exchange of information within a society. Are you familiar with our US Civil War? In a lot of Muslim countries, the media was either a state-run enterprise or a corporate operation run by powerful families that had a lot of influence on the state. The invention and widespread use of the internet, of course, is breaking down many boundaries.

In my opinion, actions speak louder than words. I agree.

I previously published an article about a Muslim informer who infiltrated a terrorist cell in Canada.

My fiancee works for a company that translates Arabic documents from Iraq in order to identify security threats, which it then passes on to other intelligence agencies.

I don't think its true that Muslims aren't doing enough in the war on terrorism. Just today, the Pakistani government attacked an Al Qaeda school. I saw that - #1, what took them so long? Can you imagine a terrorist training camp operating in the US without the government's knowledge? Me either.

If you read the news objectively, a reasonable observer would conclude that many Muslims have been actively working against terrorism within the Muslim world. I believe you because, again, I've seen this myself. But it's obviously not enough or Muslims wouldn't be having PR problems.

As was stated before, there are over 1.4 billion Muslims in the world. Their is an extreme, but vocal minority. They thrive not because of our faith, but the absence of our faith. They twist our scripture in order to justify their wicked and obscene political ends. This cancer within our community is being weeded out as we speak.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

Read please:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0331-03.htm

Television pictures showed one incinerated body being kicked and stamped on by a member of the jubilant crowd, while others dragged a blackened body down the road by its feet.

As one body lay burning on the ground, an Iraqi came and doused it with petrol, sending flames soaring.

At least two bodies were tied to cars and pulled through the streets, witnesses said.

"This is the fate of all Americans who come to Falluja," said Mohammad Nafik, one of the crowd surrounding the bodies.

Some body parts were pulled off and left hanging from a telephone cable, while two incinerated bodies were later strung from a bridge and left dangling there.

A young boy beat one of the incinerated bodies after it was pulled down with his shoe as a crowd cheered.

"I am happy to see this. The Americans are occupying us so this is what will happen," said Mohammad, 12, looking on.

As the victims lay burning, a crowd of around 150 men chanted "Long live Islam" and "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Greatest") while flashing victory signs.

Can you even remotely imagine something like this happening in the US? Me either. Which is why so many Americans can't relate to Muslims. Our troops are over there actively at war, and they do not do things like this. In fact, if they so much as embarrass or humiliate a prisoner, they get in a serious amount of trouble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

 

[vraiblonde]

Abdul, I equate this with black artists who make music videos about being gangstas who kill cops, and call their women #####es and hos, then get angry when white people think they're a bunch of animals. Sometimes they'll even go as far as to threaten violence to their detractors, which reaffirms the original opinion.

Don't blame the people who respond to what's put in their face - blame the people who put the message out there in the first place.

 

[Hessian]

Yeah...what he said...

Looking through the pages of postings from our present 5th columnists, I have to ask myself a serious question:
on the surface they sing a song of peace, discussion, dialogue if you will. They proclaim the freedoms they enjoy here...

But,
Disprove this:
*Do you believe Jews were warned ahead of the 9/11 attacks?
*Are you hoping in the return of the Mahdi? (to avenge all the wrongs done against Islam)
*Do you believe Sha'ara law should be imposed on the United States and the sooner the better?
*The best thing for the middle east is the temporary framework of democracy to be installed because then the people will vote to replace it with an Imam based theocracy.
*The crimes in Chechnya, Indonesia, Nigeria, Sudan, etc should always have tougher penalties on the Christian instigators who come there as "people of the book" and try to decieve children and women away from the One true Faith of Islam. Mercy belongs only to those who adhere to Mohammed's teachings.
*You will never call or write the Saudi embassy demanding they halt the publication of school books portraying the Jews as blood-drinking descendents of monkeys. Some of which are in the Islamic schools near DC.

thoughts? denials?
You know your numbers are growing by thousands weekly so don't go soft here...you're winning: come on and stand firm on those beliefs, don't back-pedal and apologize for the messy incidents in a few places around the world. Allah will reward you for your courage won't he?

 

[abdulhaqq]

Which wars have been caused by Muslims?

Military Death Toll War Dates
1 20,000,000 Second World War 1937-45
2 8,500,000 First World War 1914-18
3 1,200,000 Korean War 1950-53
4 1,200,000 Chinese Civil War 1945-49
5 1,200,000 Vietnam War 1965-73
6 850,000 Iran-Iraq War 1980-88
7 800,000 Russian Civil War 1918-21
8 400,000 Chinese Civil War 1927-37
9 385,000 French Indochina 1945-54
10 200,000 Mexican Revolution 1911-20
10 200,000 Spanish Civil War 1936-39
12 160,000 French-Algerian War 1954-62
13 150,000 Afghanistan 1980-89
14 130,000 Russo-Japanese War 1904-05
15 100,000 Riffian War 1921-26
15 100,000 First Sudanese Civil War 1956-72
15 100,000 Russo-Polish War 1919-20
15 100,000 Biafran War 1967-70
19 90,000 Chaco War 1932-35
20 75,000 Abyssinian War 1935-36

The only wars involving Muslims were:
- The Iran-Iraq War
- The French-Algerian war
- Afghanistan
- The First Sudanese Civil war
- Abyssinian War

Lets examine these in more detail:
- The Iran and Iraq was instigated by the US. We used Saddam Hussein, who was then our ally, by giving him biological and chemical weapons which he used to attack Iran which had undergone a revolution as a reaction against a dictator we installed after the CIA had assassinated his democratically elected predecessor. In fact, we not only supported the Iraqis, but were giving weapons to both sides. This became known as 'The Iran-Contra Scandal'.

- Afghanistan - the cause of the war was the soviet union attacking afghanistan, not the other way around.

- The French-Algerian War was a war of independence against French imperialism that left 70,000 Muslims dead.

- the sudanese first civil war occured when the government alternated between fascist and communist governments, not islamic ones.

- The abyssinian war was between Italy which invaded this region and attempted to colonize it. Hardly the works of Muslims, eh?

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

 

[abdulhaqq]

Christian Terrorists Kill 44, Wound 118 in Attacks in Northeast India
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...northeast_blast

Eric Rudolph: Christian Terrorist
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...anguage=printer

Seattle Synagogue Shooter Was Christian
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local...onvert30ww.html

The group known as the "Seas of David" who planned attacks on the Sears Tower (which was designed by a Muslim) "train through the Bible... not only physically but mentally"

"Given the group's reported affinity for al-Qaeda, what makes this incident especially interesting is the fact that Seas of David is not a Muslim organization. By all accounts, the group uses Muslim discourse and symbols. Yet it also relies heavily on Jewish and Christian discourse and symbols. This includes what is described as a homemade Star of David arm patch worn by its estimated 40 members (Miami Herald, June 23). Friends and family of the suspects claim that none of them are Muslims but in fact are practicing Christians, some devout. Batiste's father, a Christian preacher in Louisiana, claims that his son may be emotionally disturbed, but that he is certainly not a terrorist. Local sources say that Batiste could often be seen walking with a cane and wearing a black robe (Miami Herald, June 24, June 25). "
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/...ticleid=2370059

Should we start talking about how many Catholic priests molest children?

Or perhaps about mormon's abusing children through polygamous relationships?

Or how about radical Christian attacks on abortion clinics?

Or what about the Protestant-Catholic fighting in Ireland?

Or how about General Boykin's reference to the war in iraq as being a 'crusade'?

Or how about this guy:

Quote:
A Roman Catholic priest accused of taking part in the 1994 Rwandan genocide has gone on trial at the UN war crimes tribunal in Tanzania.

Athanase Seromba refused to appear in court, accusing the tribunal of bias.

He is the first Catholic priest to go on trial at the tribunal, set up after the slaughter of some 800,000 ethnic Tutsis and moderate Hutus.

He denies charges that he organised the massacre of more than 2,000 Tutsis at a church in the west of Rwanda.

Former Rwandan army chief of staff Major-General Augustin Bizimungu also boycotted the start of his separate, trial on Monday.

They are unhappy at plans to speed up the work of the tribunal in the town of Arusha, by transferring those found guilty, and possibly trials, to Rwanda.

They say that, as Hutus, they will face "victor's justice" in Rwandan, where key government positions are now held by Tutsis.

Brutal

The BBC's Rob Walker in Kigali says that today vast mounds of earth and concrete are all that remain of the church at Nyange.

Flowers and a row of crosses mark the site, but otherwise it has been left untouched for a decade - one of Rwanda's countless monuments to the dead.


5,000 Tutsis were massacred at Ntarama Church, today it is preserved as a memorial site

Rwanda's religious reflections
But the killings here, even by the standards of the genocide, were particularly brutal, our correspondent says.

As Hutu militias stood guard outside, the church doors were locked, then bulldozers arrived to demolish the building.

More than 2,000 Tutsis sheltering inside were crushed to death.

It is the parish priest, Father Athanase Seromba, 41, who now stands accused of directing this massacre of Tutsis from among his own congregation.

Faster justice

Rob Walker says the start of Father Seromba's trial at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda will revive heated debate about the role of the Catholic Church during the dark days of 1994.

The Catholic hierarchy in Rwanda had close ties to extremist politicians in the run up to the genocide and some priests like Father Seromba are accused of actively assisting the Hutu militias.


ARUSHA TRIBUNAL
20 guilty verdicts
20 suspects on trial
23 suspects awaiting trial
Source: ICTR
In 2001, two nuns were found guilty of taking part in the genocide in a Belgian court.

The Vatican accepts there are individuals in the church who committed crimes, but controversially, it says the Church as an institution cannot be held to blame.

At the time of the genocide, some 60% of Rwandans were Catholic but some have since converted to Islam, saying the Church failed them in 1994.

Rwanda's government has criticised the slow pace at which the Arusha tribunal has worked.

But our correspondent says that it has speeded up its work in the past year.

It is supposed to complete all investigations by the end of this year and all trials by the end of 2008.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3671464.stm

 

[RoseRed]

Vrai? How did he find us?

 

[abdulhaqq]

Was Hitler Christian or Muslim?

Steigmann-Gall's achievement is to have fully explored the extensive records of the Nazi era in order to illustrate these often conflicting conceptions of Christianity and to assemble the evidence in a carefully weighed evaluation. In so doing, he almost makes a convincing case. But his final view that, in light of the post-1945 ideological imperatives, Nazism had to be depicted as an evil and unchristian empire seems overdrawn. Yet he is undeniably right to point out how much Nazism owed to German Christian, especially Protestant, concepts and how much support it gained from a majority of Christians in Germany. That is certainly a sobering lesson to be drawn from this interesting and well-reasoned account.

Richard Steigmann-Gall. The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003. xvi + 294 pp.
Bibliography. $30, ISBN 0-521-82371-4; 00 (cloth), ISBN .
Reviewed by: John S. Conway , Department of History, University of British Columbia.
Published by: H-German (June, 2003)
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=55161057430311

 

[abdulhaqq]

Dear Pete et al,

I'd be more than happy to stop this flame copy/paste war and continue a civilized a discussion.

Every claim you've made has been responded in full. E

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq