The one we're fighting right nowabdulhaqq said:
What is Islam?
- Thread starter abdulhaqq
- Start date
K
Kain99
Guest
WTF are you doing?????? Christ! In order to make me mad... You must be acting like a true asstard!
This ain't about you! It's about OUR DEAD FATHERS!!!!!!!!
Wake Up! Apologize like ya mean it! Your people, attacked MY people! Act Like it, and STFU!
GD You! I have tried soooo hard, to understand your people! Watch the video footage!
Who in Allah's name could stand before me, and boast?
This ain't about you! It's about OUR DEAD FATHERS!!!!!!!!
Wake Up! Apologize like ya mean it! Your people, attacked MY people! Act Like it, and STFU!
GD You! I have tried soooo hard, to understand your people! Watch the video footage!
Who in Allah's name could stand before me, and boast?
Pete
Repete
You are too hard headed and pompous to have a serious discussion with. As soon as you are faced with legitimate facts you post "The qu'ran condemns terrorism" and figure that is good enough. When it isn't you get indignant. You have NOT refuted every claim, you have gone to your vast bank of cut and paste rebukes to "non Muslims with valid points."abdulhaqq said:
Pete: What about Hezbollah and Iran?
Abdulhaqq: Well...well...what about the crusades? :booboolip:
Pete: What do the crusades 900 years ago have to do with Hezbollah kidnapping and killing Israeli's with the support of Syria and Iran?
Abdulhaqq: You are ignorant, can't read, and naive.
vraiblonde said:The one we're fighting right now
I'm sorry, I don't see the connection between the war on iraq and 9/11?
In fact, President Bush has explicitly stated that there was no 9/11 connection with teh war on iraq, so when you say 'who started the war we're fighting now', which war are you referring to?
George Bush last night admitted that Saddam Hussein had no hand in the 9/11 terror attacks, but he asked Americans to support a war in Iraq that he said was the defining struggle of our age.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1870426,00.html
Wait a minute - I do not think of the 9-11 terrorists as "his people" and Abdul has nothing to apologize for, unless he masterminded the hijackings.Kain99 said:
What he COULD do is stop making excuses and waffling in his condemnation: "Yeah, Muslims did *this* but look at what Christians have done!
" It's not particularly endearing or inspirational.
Then why are Muslims worldwide in such a tizzy over it? Shouldn't be any of their business, right?abdulhaqq said:
And we are, in fact, still fighting in Afghanistan, against Al Qaeda, who are.....Christian? Mmmm...no. Jewish? I don't think so...
It's right on the tip of my tongue....I'll think of it in a minute...
PS, in case you didn't realize, Saddam Hussein may not have had a direct hand in 9-11, but he indeed was funding the terrorists and allowing them to set up training camps in Iraq.
Pete said:You are too hard headed and pompous to have a serious discussion with. As soon as you are faced with legitimate facts you post "The qu'ran condemns terrorism" and figure that is good enough. When it isn't you get indignant. You have NOT refuted every claim, you have gone to your vast bank of cut and paste rebukes to "non Muslims with valid points."
Pete: What about Hezbollah and Iran?
Abdulhaqq: Well...well...what about the crusades? :booboolip:
Pete: What do the crusades 900 years ago have to do with Hezbollah kidnapping and killing Israeli's with the support of Syria and Iran?
Abdulhaqq: You are ignorant, can't read, and naive.
Dear Pete,
Again, your reading comprehension has failed you again.
Firstly, I never denied the existence of Muslims who have chosen the path of terror. I have emphasized that our faith condemns their mistaken interpretation of our faith and Muslims are actively working accross the world to deal with this problem, including Hezbullah and Iran and many other terrorist organizations and countries. However, you would be blind to ignore the fact that today, as we speak, Pakistani military forces destroyed an Al Qaeda affiliated training camp Why are you so selective in citing current events? How are the actions of Muslim governments in Iraq and Pakistan and our many other allies where we have military bases and whose intelligence agencies are working with us in order to fight terrorism? There are over 1.4 billion Muslims. Do you know how many people are even in Hezbullah? Its less then 4,000. You are making a bigoted stereotype against 1.4 billion people based on the actions of 4,000?
Secondly, I gave you a plethora of recent examples of Christians who engaged in acts of violence in order to show the flawed logic of stereotyping an entire religion based on the actions of a few. My point in starting with the crusades was to show a systematic series of historical examples of Christians engaging in violence in the name of Christianity. I gave you a list of modern day examples of Christians who were engaging in violence including:
1. The participation of Christian clergymen in a genocide that resulted in 80,000 people.
1. The recent attacks against a Jewish synogague by a Pakistani Christian
2. The planned attacks by a group called 'The Seas of David' who studied the bible
What about the recent series of revealations that priests have been molesting children?
What about Adolf Hitler, who utilized Christianity for his twisted purposes?
How can you say that these actions aren't recent?
However, this is the point that seems to be going over your head. I do not believe Christianity is a violent, racist religion. I believe Christianity is a peaceful religion, but there are a handful of extremists in this religion every now and then who take their religion in the wrong direction and do horrible, evil things. I would not ever claim that all of Christianity is evil, even though there are some very terrible looking verses in the Bible and in the history of Christianity.
The same can be said of any religion. In India, some Hindus recently massacred Indian Muslims and Sikhs. In the Lebanese Civil War, both Jews and Christians participated in the massacre of Muslim palestinian refugees.
My point is that you are applying an inconsistent standard to Islam that you aren't applying to other religions. You cannot be at 'war' with an entire religion, especially when the adherents to that religion are peaceful citizens.
The 19 hijackers and all the other terrorists were bastards. However, the overwhelming majority of Muslims aren't like them. It doesn't make any sense to make a stereotype against 1.4 billion people based on the actions of a few.
Its illogical and xenophobic.
With Peace,
Abdulhaqq
vraiblonde said:
Dear Vraiblonde,
This is something that President Bush and our intelligence agencies have explicitly rejected.
Saddam Hussein was a secular baathist. The Al Qaeda-affiliated organization was located in the Kurdish no - fly zone.
Do you have any newspaper articles to support your claim or are should I just take your word for it?
With Peace
Abdulhaqq
Hessian
Well-Known Member
Moslems overwhemingly....Democrat.
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/10/us_muslims_most.php
they are simply building up the numbers....demanding more of the American pie, and waiting to see how soon Europe falls.
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/10/us_muslims_most.php
they are simply building up the numbers....demanding more of the American pie, and waiting to see how soon Europe falls.
Pete said:Are you honestly trying to draw a parrallel between Christians and Nazi's?
You really need to go back to recruiting school
And next you are going to wonder out loud why people here are close minded towads Islam.
Dear Pete,
Did you read the link I posted? It was written by a reputable historian.
I find it interesting that the most evidence you've provided for your claims are witty comments whereas I've been providing links to articles and references to books.
I'm sorry, but your sense of humor isn't an objective fact that can be construed as evidence, my friend.
With Peace,
Abdulhaqq
PS: Why do you believe in God if you are an agnostic? What proof do you have for the existence of God if you don't believe in a religion?
K
Kain99
Guest
Come on Vrai... I have been his biggest proponent, through this whole thing. Why waffle now? You have challenged him, at every turn.vraiblonde said:Wait a minute - I do not think of the 9-11 terrorists as "his people" and Abdul has nothing to apologize for, unless he masterminded the hijackings.
What he COULD do is stop making excuses and waffling in his condemnation: "Yeah, Muslims did *this* but look at what Christians have done!
vraiblonde said:Wait a minute - I do not think of the 9-11 terrorists as "his people" and Abdul has nothing to apologize for, unless he masterminded the hijackings.
What he COULD do is stop making excuses and waffling in his condemnation: "Yeah, Muslims did *this* but look at what Christians have done!
Dear vraiblonde
I apologize. I think people have misinterpreted my comments regarding violent christians. I wasn't trying to say 'christians are violent'. I was merely trying to illustrate the flawed logic of associating an entire religion on the actions of the few. If we can judge all of Islam based on the actions of a few wicked Muslims, then we should be consistent in our reasoning and apply it to christianity when their are bad christians or hinduism when there are bad hindus. I condemn general and overly broad stereotypes. I was trying to get people to see how it felt if someone made broad stereotypes against their religion.
With Peace,
Abdulhaqq
K
Kain99
Guest
Lets Break It down!
About Those Annoying Non-Believers (Infidels, Pagans, Jews, Christians, etc.)
Qur’an 9:123 “murder them and treat them harshly”
Qur’an 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
NOTE: By ‘guarding carefully’, a Muslim should deceive the infidel. Acting as a friend is fine as long as it is to benefit the Muslim and protect Islam.
Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”
Qur’an 4.89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”
Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.”
Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”
Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”
Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.
Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”
Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM
Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”
Qur’an 48:13 Those who “believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!”
Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations (the Torah and Gospels) and follow this Apostle (Jesus). Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.”
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”
Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”
About Those Annoying Non-Believers (Infidels, Pagans, Jews, Christians, etc.)
Qur’an 9:123 “murder them and treat them harshly”
Qur’an 3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
NOTE: By ‘guarding carefully’, a Muslim should deceive the infidel. Acting as a friend is fine as long as it is to benefit the Muslim and protect Islam.
Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”
Qur’an 4.89 They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
Qur’an 5:51 “Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people.”
Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.”
Qur’an 8:12 cp. 8:60 “Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers”; “smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them”
Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”
Qur’an 9.33 He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions.
Qur’an 2:193 “And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah”
Qur’an 8:71 And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM
Qur’an 8:55 Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve.
Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”
Qur’an 48:13 Those who “believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!”
Qur’an 3:54 “‘Lord, we believe in Your revelations (the Torah and Gospels) and follow this Apostle (Jesus). Enroll us among the witnesses.’ But the Christians contrived a plot and Allah did the same; but Allah’s plot was the best.”
Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”
Qur’an 8:58 “If you apprehend treachery from any group on the part of a people (with whom you have a treaty), retaliate by breaking off (relations) with them. The infidels should not think they can bypass (Islamic law or the punishment of Allah). Surely they cannot escape.”
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”
Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”
FromTexas
This Space for Rent
abdulhaqq said:
I wouldn't lay it all on the religion. Those tribal cultures were violent to each other and everyone else for thousands of years already. The Middle Eastern cultures have been at war since time began. They don't seem to know anything different. When they aren't fighting us, they are fighting each other. Heck, they even fight over the different sects of their own religion. I don't think tribal warfare ever got out of their system. Heck, we probably have brought the Middle East together more than they have been in hundreds of years by giving them a larger enemy outside themselves.
Lets face it. If America et al was gone from the Middle East tomorrow and Palestine was immediately recognized and given lands, there would still be ongoing bloodbaths over there. Getting Palestine wouldn't be enough... next would be Israel. The Sunni's and Shiites would really start to get it on in between rocking the Kurds. Saudi could go back to the brink of civil war. Pakistan/India could get it on while Pakistan went back to the Taliban for aide after another coupe replacing Shariff. Iran could start pressing UAE for the Straight of Hormuz again, so it could control the flow of oil. Without the U.S., maybe they just start controlling it their way. Lets face it. The Middle East is nothing more than violence. Don't pretend there is anything that can happen by any administration that would stop that.
K
Kain99
Guest
Qur’an 9.28 O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque (Mecca) after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
Qur’an 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Qur’an 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
Qur’an 47:4 “Strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; and after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.”
Qur’an 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Qur’an 9.30 And the Jews say: Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
Qur’an 47:4 “Strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; and after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.”
Pete
Repete
Paleeeeeeezzze That may have been a Pakistani pilot trained by Americans, in an American helicopter, burning American fuel, firing an American missile, directed by an American AWACS, on a target illuminated by and American SOG team.abdulhaqq said:
Pakistan would not have done that 4 years ago, and probably wouldn't have today unless we gave them every incentive to do so. You want to impress me? You hook me up with a link to an article where Assad in Syria sent his army into a camp that was in Syria training insurgents for insertion into Iraq, and the Syrian Army captured them and they are being put on trial. How about the Palestinian authority arresting bomb makers and putting them in prison.
The article of the Catholic priest is so vague how can anyone speak to it? How did he assist in genocide? Last I had read Rwanda needed no help in genocide.
A Pakistani Christian shooting up a synagogue? OK I will give you an isolated incident by an "individual". So how does your tit for tat negate the tons of other instances I have given you about organized terrorism?
If there are 1.4 billion Muslims, rooting out the only 4,000 or so bad actors shouldn't be that hard, don't forget to check Indonesia and the Phillipines I heard they are having alot of lopped off heads and bombings of civillians too. When Muslims have made the slightest effort to police themselves give me a call. Until then go sell your rhetoric someplace else, I am all stocked up on hypocrisy today.
K
Kain99
Guest
Let us all just ignore, what he Quran says. :rolleys:
How can Islaam be called the religion of peace when it was spread by the sword?
Historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page 8): "History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."
Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.
Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.
The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.
Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?" (The answer is 'zero')
Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"
With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur'ân says in the following verse: "Let there be no compulsion in religion, Truth stands out clear from error" [Al-Qur'ân 2:256]
An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?
Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?
Historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page 8): "History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."
Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.
Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.
The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.
Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?" (The answer is 'zero')
Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"
With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur'ân says in the following verse: "Let there be no compulsion in religion, Truth stands out clear from error" [Al-Qur'ân 2:256]
An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?
Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?