What is Islam?

[2ndAmendment]

Though we don't believe in the trinity as Muslims, I will tell you that is one of the best explanations of trinity I have heard. I am always up for open conversation like this.

Muslims do not put limit on God, as a matter of fact, we prefer to use Allah because you can't make the word Allah plural or make it gender specific. Muslims have the utmost respect for the diving being, I remember someone had said they pray countless times a day. Muslims pray when they wake up, before they go to the bathroom, when they get out of the bathroom, when they put on their clothes, before they eat breakfast, after they eat breakfast, and that is not including the obligatory morning prayer, and I am not even finished with my morning routing Talk about countless...

You won't find the word trinity in the Bible, Old or New Testament, either. Christians believe in one God. We believe God presents Himself to us in any form He chooses and has chosen to exhibit Himself to us as the Creator, a loving Father, as Y'shua, Jesus, and as the Holy Spirit. Not three , four, or many gods but one God choosing to provide what each human needs to know that God is God and that there is no other God. God also exhibits Himself to us as Provider, Protector, and in many other forms of benefaction. He also exhibits Himself as an exacting God requiring of us to do things according to His plan and not ours.

Jesus was not ambiguous about who He is. He was secretive about His true self until after His resurrection. Then He declared to His followers that He is the Father revealed to mankind as man. This probably the best explanation in the Bible of the relationship of God as Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit; one God giving mankind what we need to know and follow His ways.

John 14
Jesus Comforts His Disciples

1"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.

2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

3"If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

4"And you know the way where I am going."

5Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"

6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Oneness with the Father

7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

8Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

11"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

12"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

13"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Role of the Spirit

16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

18"I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

19"After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.

20"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

21"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

22Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?"

23Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

24"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

25"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.

26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

27"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

28"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

29"Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe.

30"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

31but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me Get up, let us go from here.

God is Spirit and not confined by human constraints. He reveals Himself to each of us according to His will and everything exists for His purpose. I do not presume to understand God. I cannot understand His creation. How could I understand the Creator? All I can do is know that He shows me His mercy, truth, and love every day.

I know God loves me. I try to love Him by doing His will and obeying His commandments. I may fail, But He provided the way for my imperfection to be perfect in His sight. He is such a loving God. He loves all His children. Mankind was created to walk and talk with God in Eden. Mankind failed. God did not. God provided the way that mankind can be reconciled to Him so that we may walk and talk with Him in this life and the life to come.

 

[vraiblonde]

Statistically speaking 2.8 Billion people make less than 2 Dollars a day. Its kind of hard to worry about other things when you don't have food on the table don't ya think. It is easy for us to sit here and criticize. Lets go to those third world countries look at the situation and then evaluate. I am sure we will have a better idea than anyway.

In reality there have been many attacks on the US, though not on US Soil. Lets start with the 83 Marine Corp bombing, then 93 World Trade Center attach, how about the various embassy bombings, USS COle and 9/11, and that is just off the top of my head. SO, lets not turn this complex world into black and white just because it helps your side of the arguement

Did you even read my post? Because your "response" is almost a non sequitur.

 

[abdulhaqq]

Dear 2ndAmendment,

I would hardly construe this as a 'misunderstanding' of Muslims. Muslims weren't the first people to reject the trinity. Within Christianity itself, there have been historic debates between various sects as to the legitimacy of the trinity. The trinity wasn't formally recognized until 325 AD in the form of the Nicene Creed. That means that after 300 years, Christians were debating one of the most important thesis in religion.

It should be noted that religions that predate Christianity such as Judaism also reject the trinity. The concept of the Trinity has pagan, not monotheistic roots. If the God of Judaism and the God of Christianity and Islam are the same, then why do Jews and Christians not believe in the trinity?

The problem I have with your analogy that 'since humans are comprised of parts, therefore God is divided into parts' is that you are comparing human beings which are created beings and god, which is an absolute, eternal, and unlimited being. I don't understand how Christians can be considered monothiests when they believe that God subsists in his creation. This doesn't seem to be monothiesm, but monadism and is more similar to hinduism which posits that all of matter and god subsist within one another.

With regards to the argument that the trinity is an exposition of God's unlimited power, I find the opposite to be true. Firstly, if God is unlimited, than how is he divided into parts, one of which was born and died as a man?
A man would be both temporally and spatially limited. The whole is the sum of the parts, no? If the parts are limited, temporal, than how can the whole be construed to be eternal, absolute, and powerful?

Islam doesn't have this problem because Islam hasn't adopted the misogynistic view of 'original sin'. Every human being, whether male or female, is born in a state of fitra which means a disposition to good. Humans are born in a state of purity and are free from sin. In Islam, humans dont become morally responsible until they become intellectually mature, i.e. until they reach the age of maturity. Insane people and children are presumed to be pure of sin. Furthermore, since each person is responsible for their own actions, they can repent from their sins directly to God, instead of going through an intermediary.

This also begs the question: if God is so powerful, why did he need to send an intermediary the second time around in order to correct original sin? Either god made a mistake with the fall of mankind or he intentionally caused the downfall of man. Either way, this doesn't seem to be the actions of an omnipotent merciful god, but a limited and confused God. I don't buy it. It doesn't make rational sense nor textual sense.

What is even more perturbing is the claim that not only did God create a second self through his creation (which is limited both temporally and spatially) that was born of a woman (further establishing its limited nature since it had to be born like a regular creature of flesh and blood), but this 'second self' died and also went to hell and suffered for humanity. Aside from the obvious implications that god is not good but sinned and suffered in hell to atone for those sins or the sins of humanity including non-christians (which makes the whole point of accepting christianity moot), this clearly limits god.

Lastly, what proof do we have that God has even claimed to be divided into three parts? This is something that is not rationally deduced, but textually transmitted through scripture. In order to prove the trinity, Christians would first have to prove that the Bible has been transmitted word for word from God to humanity. The fact that there is no historical dispute as to the unreliability of the bibles in their various forms casts doubt on this claim. Conversely, the Qur'an has been unchanged in 1400 years and early copies of the Qur'an are still in existence today.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

 

[abdulhaqq]

Dear 2ndAmendment,

Here is a relevant excerpt from the Qur'an:

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.

These verses establish the fundamental tenets of Islamic monotheism (tawheed).

If God had a father or a son and his existence was contingent upon something else, then how could either be absolute or eternal? If they had different wills, then they would not be single entity, but multiple entities. If they had a single wills, that would mean that each part lacked volition in which case each would be limited by the other's will which are the characteristics of entities that are not absolute or eternal.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

 

[Larry Gude]

Anyone wanna address this...

Dear 2ndAmendment,

Here is a relevant excerpt from the Qur'an:

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.

These verses establish the fundamental tenets of Islamic monotheism (tawheed).

and...

we prefer to use Allah because you can't make the word Allah plural or make it gender specific.

I'm just asking.

 

[2ndAmendment]

and...





I'm just asking.

I think you already did.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Dear 2ndAmendment,

...

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq

You accuse others of not reading well. I would say the same of you. I have never said nor does the Bible ever say God is anything but one God. God reveals Himself as He chooses. Jesus is the Father; Jesus and the Father is one God. The Holy Spirit is the Father; the Holy Spirit and the Father is one God.

As to the tenent that humans are born with a disposition to good, I would say look around you at the world at humans including yourself and honestly tell me that you and all those around you are good and always follow God. Those that kill in the name of Allah are not good nor do they have a disposition to good. The world around you refutes this tenent.

I never said God is divided. I said that if God chose to divide Himself, then He can and we can do nothing about it.

The Bible has remained unchanged. This has been a topic of dicussion before.

The oldest manuscripts of ancient writers like Aristotle, Plato, Herodotus (among other) amounts to a small number of copies that were made a thousand years or more after the originals were written. There are no more then ten manuscripts of Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars, and the oldest copy of that was written over 900 years later than the original. Scholars accept these documents as adequate representations of the originals.

Why not the bible?

The earliest portions of The New Testament date to within just 25 years of the originals. Some nearly complete books of the new testament date to within one century or less from the originals. And we're not even talking about a handful of copies that can be compared with one another to determine accuracy or consistence. There are nearly 25,000 complete manuscripts of the New Testament, with more than 15,000 that date to before the 7th Century A.D. (or C.E. if you prefer). These include 5,300 copies in the original Greek, over 10,000 in Latin Vulgate, 4,100 Slavic translations, 2,000 Ethiopian translations and about 1,000 other early translations.

Further, in the first centuries after Christ, thousands of letters, and other documents were written in which people quoted from other documents that would later be assembled into what was to become the New Testament.. These quotes are so extensive that even if there wasn't a single bible in existence, you could go back to those letters and documents and using only those written within 250 years after the death of Christ, you could find every word of the New Testament, with the exception of 11 verses.

There are small differences in all those manuscripts - however, all these differences, most are a matter of spelling or word order changes that were made as the styles changed over the ages. In fact a total of only about 200 words, or 1/10 of 1 percent of the entire new testament are subject to more than trivial differences. And no single doctrine of Christianity in all it's denominations throughout history depend on a piece of disputed text.


As for the Old Testament, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls show that in over 2,000 years those who copied the Old testament were so meticulous that no significant changes were made to the texts. The Dead Sea Scrolls represent a major library of over 800 total documents dating between 250 B.C. to 68 A.D. Every book of the Old Testament is included except for some minor prophets, and Esther.

 

[2ndAmendment]

While researching, I found this as well. History reveals that Islam is not the peaceful religion you would lead us to believe it is.

After the death of Mohammed, their mode of expansion was through pillaging raids North and West. There was a powerful drive to a) eradicate any competing religion, b) enslave all resistance c) destroy any cultural sites.

A) Persia Fell by the 640's. (Nihavand)
B) Byzantine's first loss: 636
C) Syria Massacres of Christians 634
D) Mesopotamian cities ransacked and monasteries destroyed 640's
E) Cyprus secured by a "great Massacre" in 640's
F) Tripoli laid waste 643
G) Jerusalem Fell 638
H) Internal civil war killed 10,000 in the 650's (Battle of the Camel)
I) Sunni & Shia split in war in the 680's. (Over legitimacy of rulers)
J) All Christian elements in Jerusalem destroyed 1009 (Hakem's orders)
K) 1070-1160's...Crusades...most fail.
L) 1244 Jerusalem fell to Baybars who promised 2000 knights safe passage,...they were massacred.
M)Antioch soon fell: 16,000 massacred (100,000 sold into slavery)
N) Discrimination was codified for the the conquered lands: Minority nonmoslems were under constant heavy taxation, threatened with rape, abduction, enslavement and abuse. (See the "pact of Umar")
O) 712: Invasion of India: 3 straight days of massacres in Debal
P) Brahminabad: 6000-16,000 men massacred.
Q) Every Hindu temple destroyed and all art/libraries/ cultural sites burned.
R) 50,000 Hindus slain on Mahmud's orders at Somnath
S) 1193: Muhammed Khilji destroyed the premiere Buddhist library
T) Firuz Shah wiped out all Buddhist temples in No. India and replaced them all with Mosques...ordered all Hindus slain while they were in a festival.
U) Feb 1568 30,000 Hindus executed by order of Moghul Akbar.
V) Shah Jahan: builder of the Taj Mahal had 5000 concubines, raped his two daughters, and massacred 10,000 after Hugh fell to him,...4000 killed in Agra
W) 1453: Constantinople fell: Massacres continued for three days
X) Blood levys carried out against all Christians under Islamic law: they must surrender their boys to become mercenaries: "Janissaries"
Y) 1822: Massacre at Chios (10,000's)
Z) 1823: Massacre at Missolongi (8750)

Since U.S. Civil War:
a) Lebannon: 12,000 Christians murdered in 1860
b) Bulgaria: 14,700 massacred by Ottomans in 1876
c)(*Britain turns a blind eye to the atrocities of Turkey...hoping that they will prove to balance out Russia & Austria in the 1870's)
d) Armenians slaughtered in 1877 (Bayazid)...1879 (Alashgurd)...1894 (Sassun)...Constantinople (1896)...Adana 1909...and in Armenia (1895-96) totally approx 200,000.
e) Artificial Famine (ie Somolia 1990)...killed 100,000 Maronite Christians in Lebannon & Syria in 1916
f) Armenian Massacres: 100,000+ in 1915
g) Smyrna 1922: 300,000 displaced, killed & scattered
h) Armenia: 1922...10,000+ killed & displaced

Only the distractions of the depression & WWII kept the West believing that the moslem "powers" were benign.
Where native populations were stabilized: since WWII: mass migrations of Christians, Hindus, & Buddhists have left a monoIslamist climate behind.
(ie Pakistan: 1941: 25% Hindu...1948: 17% Hindu...1991: 1.5% Hindu)

 

[meelak]

Brother/Sister, 2ndAmendment,
I was going thru these forum pages and came across this post and I wanted to help 2ndAmendment.

First of all, brother AbdulHaq and the all the like minded people - dialogue is what we need so we can share each other's views and learn to live in peace and harmony. There is no need for name calling and attacking people. We all know there are black sheeps in all the religions. People who bring bad names to their religion through their action. As learned people, we are not to generalize and stereotype people, community or nations.

I am proud of being a muslim and I thank allah for it and I am equally proud of being a US citizen and thank allah for that also. Many a times people ask me which country I came from and why I came. My response to them is, I came to this country for the same exact reason as your forefathers came (to earn a better livelihood) and just because your forefathers came few generations ago does not make you superior to me or give you special privilege. Likewise, there are american people going and working in middle eastern countries because there is no income tax. As of today, there are more than 75,000 americans working in Saudi Arabia alone and if you add their spouses and children, it is more than 200,000 americans. What about the americans who are working in Qatar, Kuwait and what about the americans working in UAE - construction boom. Just in the company where I work in Maryland, one of my colleague worked in Saudi for more than 10 years and another colleague told me yesterday that her brother has gone to UAE on a construction project. If you go by the percentage, obviouly there are lot more people coming into this country for better living than the people going from here to other countries for better living. What I am saying is that it is the general nature of the people to go where they believe they can do better and succeed. Also, please remember that countries admit foreign citizens into their country if it is beneficial for them. So, it is a win-win situation. Look at the scientific community, medicine, NASA, IT and the list go on. You will see the contribution of the immigrant community.

Anyway, my response to this post was that John 14 is the most misunderstood chapter by the bible readers. If you read clearly, in essence what Jesus is telling is - to get close to god, you have to follow him. This is what all the other prophets have said. Because allah sent prophets among the mankind so that people can understand the directives spoken by someone who is one among them and can speak in their own language. Hebrew like Arabic is very poetic and classical and has to be understood in the right context. Even in english, when we say, "The sunset is at 5:09" we don't really mean the sun is setting. The sun does not rise or the sun does not set - similarly in those days the speach was symbolic at times. In John 14, Jesus is trying to convey to his disciples that the directives/preachings of his are exactly same as that of god. So, if one follows the directives of the prophet, he/she is following the directives of god and in that way both are the same because a prophet does not speak or do anything on his own. It is the inspiration of god.

Show me a single statement in the bible where jesus in his own words says, "I am god and worship me". In fact, if you search through the entire bible you will not come across a single statement where jesus is claiming to be god. How can he if he is only the prophet or the messaiyah of god? The book of John written by his disciple is John's interpretation/understanding of what jesus thought to have said and that too it was written 100 to 150 years after jesus died and jesus was not alive to verify the accounts to be true and attest to that.

The word Trinity is not mentioned in the bible, but it is mentioned in the Qur'an and the verse says,

"Qur'an 4:171 O FOLLOWERS of the Gospel! Do not overstep the bounds [of truth] in your religious beliefs, and do not say of God anything but the truth. The Christ Jesus, son of Mary, was but God's Apostle - [the fulfilment of] His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary - and a soul created by Him. [181] Believe, then, in God and His apostles, and do not say, "[God is] a trinity". Desist [from this assertion] for your own good. God is but One God; utterly remote is He, in His glory, from having a son: unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God."

If we believe god to be omnipotent, the creator, sustainer, protector, etc and having power over all the things, then why is there a need for him to come down as a human being? He has power over our minds also, so he could just program our mind from wherever he is.

If a man makes a tape recorder, he assembles all the required things that he knows would produce the desired result. The taperecorder has got to be able to fast forward, reverse, play, etc. But the maker of the tape recorder does not need to become a tape recorder to feel or understand what or how the tape recorder functions, the maker already knows that.

So, when you say Trinity, you are saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It is not true brothers and sisters and your common sense will tell you that.

Brother, AbdulHaqq, thank you for starting the dialogue. Don't get discouraged by the name calling or other incitement. We need to share our views - I am sure there are lots of educated readers on this forum who see the value in getting to know the views from the muslims.

 

[Toxick]

So, when you say Trinity, you are saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It is not true brothers and sisters and your common sense will tell you that.

When I say Trinity, I say nothing like 1+1+1=1.


To say that a triangle has three sides does not mean there is more than one triangle.


I worship ONE God.

Period.

 

[itsbob]

Yep, organized religion isn't a bad thing at all..

 

[itsbob]

Statistically speaking 2.8 Billion people make less than 2 Dollars a day.

7-11 pays MORE then that...

 

[meelak]

I asked some real questions. They were never answered. Let me try again.

2ndAmendment,
Here are your answers.

Then why is it that the Islamic countries want Israel annihilated?

Islamic countries do not want Israel annihilated. If one person issues a statement that does not become binding and that does not become the will of the people. Couple of years back Saudi Arabia came up with a proposal to Israel and that offer still holds good. Recently Olmert (israeli PM) met with Saudi rule to discuss about this. If you are looking for this news on CNNN, FOX, ABC, etc. you will not find it. The offer basically says that all the islamic countries will have full diplomatic and trade ties with Israel if it returns back to the borders that existed in 1967. If Israel returns the occupied land, the islamic countries are willing to have friendly relationship with israel and recognize it and have full trade ties.

For a moment imagine this, You have a beautiful house with a big back yard and all of a sudden a bunch of people come in over power you and build their house in the back yard and claim the entire backyard to be theirs and confine you just to be in your house. They allow you to get out of your own house only at certain timings, only for certain purposes and ration the food and electricity and water to you. If you oppose you will be called a terrorist and you will be beaten up. How will you react? Will you welcome them with garlands? Even after all this the islamic countries are saying, just give back what you illegally took - we will forget and forgive and have normal relationship with you. I think that is a fair offer.



Why is it that Christians and Jews are not free to worship in most Muslim countries?

From this question, it is apparent you have not traveled outside this country and your view is based on what you are seeing on TV or reading in papers. In Saudi Arabia you are free to practice any religion as long as you don't preach and the non-muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca because it is a sacred place and the only reason why you would enter this small city is to pray at the holy place. If you are not a muslim, you are not going to pray there anyway, so there is no need for you to be there. It is same as why the regular public is not allowed on military installations. If you are affiliated with military, you have a reason to be there, if not, why should you overcrowd that place and cause logistical issues on the facility.

Also, in Saudi Arabia, the top jobs ceos of the top companies, administrators of the public sector organizations - most of them are non-muslims (you will be surpised).

Get into the details of the following islamic countries (Malaysia, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Egypt, Lebanon, Indonesia) and you will see that there are many christians and jews living side by side with the muslims.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Brother/Sister, 2ndAmendment,
I was going thru these forum pages and came across this post and I wanted to help 2ndAmendment.

Don't need your help in understanding the Bible since it is obvious that you do not understand it. I may have some dirt in my eyes, but I don't need a blind person to help me see.

Show me a single statement in the bible where jesus in his own words says, "I am god and worship me". In fact, if you search through the entire bible you will not come across a single statement where jesus is claiming to be god. How can he if he is only the prophet or the messaiyah of god?

That would be the Messiah, annointed one, king. Jesus says that when His disciple had seen Him, they had seen the Father.

John 14:9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Very plain. How about:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

That is pretty plain. Don't see the mention of anyone else who someone can believe in and get to the Father.

The book of John written by his disciple is John's interpretation/understanding of what jesus thought to have said and that too it was written 100 to 150 years after jesus died and jesus was not alive to verify the accounts to be true and attest to that.

Wrong. John was one of Jesus' disciples. John was a contemporary of Jesus. Are you saying John lives for 100 to 150 years after the resurrection of Jesus. John did die on the island of Patmos at an old age after the Roman tried several times to kill him. Oh, and Jesus did rise from the dead. Jesus is not dead. He is alive and quite well. Did Mohamed do that? Nope.

...

So, when you say Trinity, you are saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It is not true brothers and sisters and your common sense will tell you that.

Again. You are very wrong in your understanding. Christians believe in only one God. How many times do you have to be told that the word trinity is not in the Bible.

Brother, AbdulHaqq, thank you for starting the dialogue. Don't get discouraged by the name calling or other incitement. We need to share our views - I am sure there are lots of educated readers on this forum who see the value in getting to know the views from the muslims.

If you wish to share your views, then respect the Bible and God as I show respect to the Qur'an. See. Capitalization is recognition I give and expect. If you disrespect God then I guess it is OK for me to post allah and qur'an or koran and mohamed.Give respect to get respect. Withhold respect and get none.

Quite frankly, I am not interested in Islam. I know Jesus as my Savior and Lord who is in the Father and the Father in Him who is God. I do not need Mohamed who was only a man. Now if you would like to learn about the real Y'shua, Jesus, God come as man, I will be more than happy to have discourse with you.

Remember God came as Jesus to be a Savior for you. All you have to do is repent, accept Jesus as your Savior, and follow Him to the Father. It is all God. Aren't you glad God loves you? I am. God didn't kill someone else for me; He chose to humble Himself and come as man to die for me and then show me the promise of eternal life by coming back to life. Now that is a loving God.

 

[itsbob]

Wrong. John was one of Jesus' disciples. John was a contemporary of Jesus. Are you saying John lives for 100 to 150 years after the resurrection of Jesus. John did die on the island of Patmos at an old age after the Roman tried several times to kill him. Oh, and Jesus did rise from the dead. Jesus is not dead. He is alive and quite well. Did Mohamed do that? Nope.


OUR savior is better then your Savior.. Nyah nyah nyah!!

 

[2ndAmendment]

2ndAmendment,
Here are your answers.

Then why is it that the Islamic countries want Israel annihilated?

Islamic countries do not want Israel annihilated. If one person issues a statement that does not become binding and that does not become the will of the people. Couple of years back Saudi Arabia came up with a proposal to Israel and that offer still holds good. Recently Olmert (israeli PM) met with Saudi rule to discuss about this. If you are looking for this news on CNNN, FOX, ABC, etc. you will not find it. The offer basically says that all the islamic countries will have full diplomatic and trade ties with Israel if it returns back to the borders that existed in 1967. If Israel returns the occupied land, the islamic countries are willing to have friendly relationship with israel and recognize it and have full trade ties.

For a moment imagine this, You have a beautiful house with a big back yard and all of a sudden a bunch of people come in over power you and build their house in the back yard and claim the entire backyard to be theirs and confine you just to be in your house. They allow you to get out of your own house only at certain timings, only for certain purposes and ration the food and electricity and water to you. If you oppose you will be called a terrorist and you will be beaten up. How will you react? Will you welcome them with garlands? Even after all this the islamic countries are saying, just give back what you illegally took - we will forget and forgive and have normal relationship with you. I think that is a fair offer.

When countries loose a war, the victor does not have to give up the territory taken. The U.S. typically does, but has not always. Israel chose not to give up the conquered territories. Those territories were conquered; they were not taken illegally.

I thought it was very nice of Israel not to completely wipe out the Egyptian army they had trapped.

Don't want to loose territory? Don't go to war.

Why is it that Christians and Jews are not free to worship in most Muslim countries?

From this question, it is apparent you have not traveled outside this country and your view is based on what you are seeing on TV or reading in papers. In Saudi Arabia you are free to practice any religion as long as you don't preach and the non-muslims are not allowed to enter Mecca because it is a sacred place and the only reason why you would enter this small city is to pray at the holy place. If you are not a muslim, you are not going to pray there anyway, so there is no need for you to be there. It is same as why the regular public is not allowed on military installations. If you are affiliated with military, you have a reason to be there, if not, why should you overcrowd that place and cause logistical issues on the facility.

Also, in Saudi Arabia, the top jobs ceos of the top companies, administrators of the public sector organizations - most of them are non-muslims (you will be surpised).

Get into the details of the following islamic countries (Malaysia, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Egypt, Lebanon, Indonesia) and you will see that there are many christians and jews living side by side with the muslims.

See, by prohibiting Christians from witnessing, preaching, they are prevented from carrying out the instructions of Jesus to go into all the world teaching and making disciples. So Christians are not free to worship as they should but only free to worship as the Saudi Arabia authorities dictate. That would be like the U.S. saying it is OK for muslims to pray but only two times a day and they can't use a prayer rug and can't face mecca.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Wrong. John was one of Jesus' disciples. John was a contemporary of Jesus. Are you saying John lives for 100 to 150 years after the resurrection of Jesus. John did die on the island of Patmos at an old age after the Roman tried several times to kill him. Oh, and Jesus did rise from the dead. Jesus is not dead. He is alive and quite well. Did Mohamed do that? Nope.


OUR savior is better then your Savior.. Nyah nyah nyah!!

You are adding nothing as usual.

 

[meelak]

2ndAmendment wrote: "You have a physical self. Right? You have a spiritual self. Right? You exist in two forms and you are only a human. You do believe God is everywhere and is all powerful and can do anything? Or is the god of Islam an inferior god that is limited? The God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Adam is not limited in any way. I thought that is the God you said you worshiped? If it is, then why do Muslims profess to limit the power and presence of God?"


2ndAmendment, what you wrote above does not make sense. The physical and the spiritual is in one shape/form. In other words, if you promise somebody to meet the next day for dinner, you don't say, "You know what, my physical self will be resting tomorrow. But don't worry, my spiritual self will meet you for dinner". As stated by you, it will be putting limitation on god if he were expected or required to come down in a specific shape or form. What do you think, being capable of anything and everything, he couldn't have done it without coming in the shape of a human being.

For those of you who are not aware, The jews, christians and the muslims all worship the same god. It is called "Alah" in Hebrew (you will see this as the first footnote in the first chapter of Genesis, translated as "Alah" in english in the bible). In Arabic, it is Allah. And in different languages, different names. The main difference between christianity and islam is that - christians believe jesus as god. Whereas muslims believe he is one of the mightiest messengers of allah, born to Mary through immaculate conception, cured the lepers, blind and brought the dead back to life with allah's leave and to him was revealed the scripture.

Because he did the miracles like raising the dead, etc., people mistakenly started worshipping him as god even though he never claimed divinity. Look into the Hebrew source and you will not come across a single verse where he is claiming divinity. Allah then had to send the final messenger to humanity and to him was revealed the last and final testament - The holy Qur'an.

Because Allah knew how the people beleived jesus to be god seeing his miracles, etc. He took away Muhammad's (PBUH) dad even before he was born. His mom died when he was seven. There was no mentor for him. He did not learn how to read and write. Allah with his infinite wisdom designed it this way so that people do not attribute his preachings or guidance to another wordly figure. Sincerely ask this question to yourself. How does a person who does not know how to read and write and who is a orphan and who did not have any mentors or teachers - later on comes to tell about Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Ishmael, Isaac, Jesus, etc. and they are are true and no jew or christian at that time could prove him to be false. He abolished the slavery that was existence at that time - long after judaism and christianity was there. He preaches equality among men and women, responsibility towards children, family, society, etc. In those days, there was no emails or internet or books. If it is not Allah's inspiration through arch angel Gibrael, how else do you think one illeterate person was able to preach or tell people about the past with 100% accuracy.

Some people think Islam is there only for past 1427 years. No, Islam is there from the begining with Adam. Adam was the first human being and the first prophet of islam.

 

[meelak]

2ndAmendment,
I see all your posts end with
"Read the Bible . The Truth. The whole Truth. And nothing but the Truth."

Which bible are you asking us to read. The KJV, NSV, NISV,,,,,,,,,? I see one verse in one version but the same verse is taken away from another version. If it is word of god who gives people the right to add and take away the verses. Because they want you to read what they want. For example, in 1970s, the so-called religions "DD"s joined another 50 people of religious prominence and put together the new version and if you look into the foreword section, it says the preivous version had "grave" mistakes and they were so many.

The Truth - Did Jesus read it and attest to the contents for its accuracy?

The Wholetruth - Then why do the verses keep disappearing and new verses keep appearing.

 

[PJay]

Brother/Sister, 2ndAmendment,
Brother, AbdulHaqq, thank you for starting the dialogue. Don't get discouraged by the name calling or other incitement. We need to share our views - I am sure there are lots of educated readers on this forum who see the value in getting to know the views from the muslims.

Why all of a sudden are you people coming out of the woodwork like a bunch roaches...or are you all one in the same? Whatever, I see your agenda.

Too, why do you say brother/sister to some here and not 2A? You live here in this country and do not consider him your brother? You say you want peace. Yeah right.

And by the way, the only views I care to see from a muslim at this point in time is you people gathering together ( as you are here ) kicking some muslim butts of those that are killing innocent people!