What is Islam?
- Thread starter abdulhaqq
- Start date
FromTexas said:
Dear FromTexas,
How is the Sudanese genocide a war of conversion??
The people of Darfur are predominantly Muslim and the Janjaweed are Muslims as well. It wouldn't be a war of conversion, but a racial war.
Islam clearly condemns wars of conversion as well as racism:
The Qur'an states the following:
“There is no compulsion in religion”.
and
"Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject"
Futhermore, many historians and academians have rejected the myth that Islam spread by force:
- Sir Thomas W. Arnold in "The Preaching of Islam".
- Marshall G. Hodgson in "The Venture of Islam"
- Albert Hourani in book, "A History of the Arab People"
- Ira Lapidus in book, "History of Islamic Societies"
- L.S. Starorianos in book, "A Global Hisotry, the Human Heritage"
"The question of why people convert to Islam has always generated intense feeling. Earlier generations of European scholars believed that conversions to Islam were made at the point of the sword, and that conquered peoples were given the choice of conversion or death. It is now apparent that conversion by force, while not unknown in Muslim countries, was, in fact, rare. Muslim conquerors ordinarily wished to dominate rather than convert, and most conversions to Islam were voluntary."
- p 198 of "A History of Islamic Societies" by Ira Lapidus
For a more recent example of the peaceful converion of people to Islam:
"We have our own jihad, and that is our war against ignorance between Hutu and Tutsi. It is our struggle to heal," said Saleh Habimana, the head mufti of Rwanda. "Our jihad is to start respecting each other and living as Rwandans and as Muslims."
Since the genocide, Rwandans have converted to Islam in huge numbers. Muslims now make up 14 percent of the 8.2 million people here in Africa's most Catholic nation, twice as many as before the killings began.
Many converts say they chose Islam because of the role that some Catholic and Protestant leaders played in the genocide. Human rights groups have documented several incidents in which Christian clerics allowed Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis. Today some churches serve as memorials to the many people slaughtered among their pews.
"If it weren't for the Muslims, my whole family would be dead," said Aisha Uwimbabazi, 27, a convert and mother of two children. "I was very, very thankful for Muslim people during the genocide. I thought about it and I really felt it was right to change."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A53018-2002Sep22?language=printer
With Peace,
Abdulhaqq
Dear FromTexas,
With regards to the Islamic view on racism, let it speak for itself:
"O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous of you" (Quran 49:13).
From Muhammad's (Peace Be Upon Him)'s last sermon:
O people, Remember that your Lord is One. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a black has no superiority over white, nor a white has any superiority over black, except by piety and good action (Taqwa). Indeed the best among you is the one with the best character (Taqwa). Listen to me. Did I convey this to you properly? People responded, Yes. O messenger of God, The Prophet then said, then each one of you who is there must convey this to everyone not present.
The Prophet said: Let people stop boasting about their ancestors. One is only a pious believer or a miserable sinner. All men are sons of Adam, and Adam came from dust.
The Prophet said: Whoever has pride in his heart equal to the weight of an atom shall not enter Paradise. A man inquired about a person who likes to wear beautiful clothes and fine shoes, and he answered: God is beautiful and likes beauty. Then he explained pride means rejecting the truth because of self-esteem and looking down on other people
With Peace,
Abdulhaqq
With regards to the Islamic view on racism, let it speak for itself:
"O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous of you" (Quran 49:13).
From Muhammad's (Peace Be Upon Him)'s last sermon:
O people, Remember that your Lord is One. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a black has no superiority over white, nor a white has any superiority over black, except by piety and good action (Taqwa). Indeed the best among you is the one with the best character (Taqwa). Listen to me. Did I convey this to you properly? People responded, Yes. O messenger of God, The Prophet then said, then each one of you who is there must convey this to everyone not present.
The Prophet said: Let people stop boasting about their ancestors. One is only a pious believer or a miserable sinner. All men are sons of Adam, and Adam came from dust.
The Prophet said: Whoever has pride in his heart equal to the weight of an atom shall not enter Paradise. A man inquired about a person who likes to wear beautiful clothes and fine shoes, and he answered: God is beautiful and likes beauty. Then he explained pride means rejecting the truth because of self-esteem and looking down on other people
With Peace,
Abdulhaqq
Interview with Hamza Yusuf about the terrorist attacks
Santa Clara, California-based Shaikh Hamza Yusuf was interviewed by the San Jose Mercury Sun newspaper about the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. In it, he shares the Islamic perspective on terrorism, suicide and peace. We are reproducing the article here with the permission of Mercury News.
Shaikh Hamza Yusuf is the founder and director of the Hayward, California-based Zaytuna Institute. He is also a popular speaker at conferences like the Islamic Society of North America's annual one, as well as amongst Muslim youth in North America.
Here is the interview:
Expert says Islam prohibits
violence against innocents
Muslim scholar: Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs
BY RICHARD SCHEININ
Mercury News
Tuesday's terrorist attacks have saddened and maddened millions -- and raised questions for many about Islam. Speculation abounds that the hijackers were inspired by terrorists like Osama bin Laden, who teach that violent acts can pave the way to paradise. But what does Islam really say about such matters? About jihad and martyrdom?
We asked Hamza Yusuf, an Islamic scholar in the East Bay, who said the attackers were ``enemies of Islam.'' Not martyrs, but ``mass murderers, pure and simple.''
Yusuf, whose articles about Islam are published internationally, talked about the attacks, the hysteria that he fears could grip the United States, and the role that Muslims and others must play in opposing violence. ``We've got to get to some deeper core values that are commonly shared,'' he said.
Why would anyone do what the hijackers did?
Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. It's like some misguided Irish using Catholicism as an excuse for blowing up English people.
They're not martyrs, it's as simple as that.
Because?
You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country.
In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.
What role should American Muslims have in opposing this brand of violent Islam?
I think that the Muslims -- and I really feel this strongly -- have to reject the discourse of anger. Because there is a lot of anger in the Muslim communities around the world about the oppressive conditions that many Muslims find themselves in. But we have to reject the discourse of anger and we have to move to a higher moral ground, recognizing that the desire to blame others leads to anger and eventually to wrath, neither of which are rungs on a spiritual ladder to God. It's times like these that we really need to become introspective.
The fact that there are any Muslims -- no matter how statistically insignificant their numbers -- who consider these acts to be religious acts is in and of itself shocking. And therefore we as Muslims have to ask the question, ``How is it that our religious leadership has failed to reach these people with the true message of Islam?'' Because the acts of these criminals have indicted an entire religion in the hearts and minds of millions. Ultimately, this is a result of the bankruptcy of these type of people who claim to be adherents to the Islamic religion. These people are so bankrupt that all they have to offer is destruction.
Why do some people regard the hijackers as martyrs?
That's an abomination. These are mass murderers, pure and simple. It's like Christians in this country who blow up abortion clinics or kill abortion doctors. I don't think anyone in the Christian community, except a very extreme fringe, would condone that as an acceptable Christian response. In the same way, there's no Muslim who understands his religion at all who would condone this. One of the worst crimes in Islam is brigandry -- highway robbery, or today we'd say armed robbery -- because it disrupts the sense of well-being and security among civilians.
Suicide bombers have cited a Koranic verse that says, ``Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.''
That is meant for people who are legitimately defending the lands of Islam or fighting under legitimate state authority against a tyrannical leader. There is no vigilantism in Islam. Muslims believe in the authority of government.
Imam Malik, an early Islamic legal authority, said that 60 years of oppression under an unjust ruler is better than one hour of anarchy.
Then why is there such strong support in parts of the world for the attacks?
Because we're dealing in an age of ignorance and an age of anomie, the loss of social order. And people are very confused and they're impoverished. What Americans are feeling now, this has been business as usual for Lebanese people, Palestinian people, Bosnian people.
What about Israeli people?
Certainly the fear element is there for Israeli people -- that's true, and the terror that they've felt. And there are still a lot of Jewish people alive who remember the fear and terror of what happened in Europe, so that's not far from people's memories.
It seems at some point, the cycles of violence have to stop. It's a type of insanity, especially when we're dealing with nuclear power. People are saying that this was an attack on civilization -- and that is exactly the point. And I think the question we all have to ask is whether indiscriminate retaliation is going to help preserve civilization.
The perpetrators of this and, really, all acts of terror are people who hate too much. There's a verse in the Koran that says do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Being just is closer to piety. The evil of wrath is that justice and mercy are lost.
How do you explain Palestinians and others celebrating the attacks in the streets?
When you see ignorant people in the streets, rejoicing -- the Prophet condemned it. It's rejoicing at the calamities of your enemies, and Islam prohibits that. They do have a lot of anger toward America, because America produces much of Israel's military hardware and so many American tax dollars go to support Israel. You have a lot of animosity in the Arab world. But the vast majority of Arabs are horrified by what's happened. There's animosity in the Muslim world toward American foreign policy. This is the unfortunate price of power and its exercise in the world, that you incur the resentment and animosity of a lot of people. But the majority of Muslims who I know don't have anger toward individuals or the American people.
The concept of jihad has been widely used to justify violence.
Jihad means struggle. The Prophet said the greatest jihad is the struggle of a man against his own evil influences. It also refers to what Christians call a ``just war,'' which is fought against tyranny or oppression -- but under a legitimate state authority.
What is the Arabic word for martyr?
Shaheed. It means witness. The martyr is the one who witnesses the truth and gives his life for it. There are people in this country like Martin Luther King who would be considered a martyr for his cause. Also, if your home, your family, your property or your land or religion is threatened, then you may defend it with your life. That person is a martyr. But so is anybody who dies of terminal illness; it's a martyr's death. Because it's such a purification that whatever wrongs they once did, they're now in a state of purity.
And the greatest martyr in the eyes of God is the one who stands in the presence of a tyrant and speaks the truth and is killed for it. He is martyred for his tongue.
What does Islam say about suicide?
Suicide is haram in Islam. It's prohibited, like a mortal sin. And murder is haram. And to kill civilians is murder.
What is a martyr's reward?
The Prophet said that a martyr who dies doesn't have a reckoning on the Day of Judgment. It's an act through which he is forgiven. But the Prophet also said that there are people who kill in the name of Islam and go to hell. And when he was asked why, he said, "Because they weren't fighting truly for the sake of God.''
If there are any martyrs in this affair it would certainly be those brave firefighters and police that went in there to save human lives and in that process lost their own.
Reproduced with the permission of Mercury News
http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm
Santa Clara, California-based Shaikh Hamza Yusuf was interviewed by the San Jose Mercury Sun newspaper about the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. In it, he shares the Islamic perspective on terrorism, suicide and peace. We are reproducing the article here with the permission of Mercury News.
Shaikh Hamza Yusuf is the founder and director of the Hayward, California-based Zaytuna Institute. He is also a popular speaker at conferences like the Islamic Society of North America's annual one, as well as amongst Muslim youth in North America.
Here is the interview:
Expert says Islam prohibits
violence against innocents
Muslim scholar: Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs
BY RICHARD SCHEININ
Mercury News
Tuesday's terrorist attacks have saddened and maddened millions -- and raised questions for many about Islam. Speculation abounds that the hijackers were inspired by terrorists like Osama bin Laden, who teach that violent acts can pave the way to paradise. But what does Islam really say about such matters? About jihad and martyrdom?
We asked Hamza Yusuf, an Islamic scholar in the East Bay, who said the attackers were ``enemies of Islam.'' Not martyrs, but ``mass murderers, pure and simple.''
Yusuf, whose articles about Islam are published internationally, talked about the attacks, the hysteria that he fears could grip the United States, and the role that Muslims and others must play in opposing violence. ``We've got to get to some deeper core values that are commonly shared,'' he said.
Why would anyone do what the hijackers did?
Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. It's like some misguided Irish using Catholicism as an excuse for blowing up English people.
They're not martyrs, it's as simple as that.
Because?
You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country.
In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.
What role should American Muslims have in opposing this brand of violent Islam?
I think that the Muslims -- and I really feel this strongly -- have to reject the discourse of anger. Because there is a lot of anger in the Muslim communities around the world about the oppressive conditions that many Muslims find themselves in. But we have to reject the discourse of anger and we have to move to a higher moral ground, recognizing that the desire to blame others leads to anger and eventually to wrath, neither of which are rungs on a spiritual ladder to God. It's times like these that we really need to become introspective.
The fact that there are any Muslims -- no matter how statistically insignificant their numbers -- who consider these acts to be religious acts is in and of itself shocking. And therefore we as Muslims have to ask the question, ``How is it that our religious leadership has failed to reach these people with the true message of Islam?'' Because the acts of these criminals have indicted an entire religion in the hearts and minds of millions. Ultimately, this is a result of the bankruptcy of these type of people who claim to be adherents to the Islamic religion. These people are so bankrupt that all they have to offer is destruction.
Why do some people regard the hijackers as martyrs?
That's an abomination. These are mass murderers, pure and simple. It's like Christians in this country who blow up abortion clinics or kill abortion doctors. I don't think anyone in the Christian community, except a very extreme fringe, would condone that as an acceptable Christian response. In the same way, there's no Muslim who understands his religion at all who would condone this. One of the worst crimes in Islam is brigandry -- highway robbery, or today we'd say armed robbery -- because it disrupts the sense of well-being and security among civilians.
Suicide bombers have cited a Koranic verse that says, ``Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.''
That is meant for people who are legitimately defending the lands of Islam or fighting under legitimate state authority against a tyrannical leader. There is no vigilantism in Islam. Muslims believe in the authority of government.
Imam Malik, an early Islamic legal authority, said that 60 years of oppression under an unjust ruler is better than one hour of anarchy.
Then why is there such strong support in parts of the world for the attacks?
Because we're dealing in an age of ignorance and an age of anomie, the loss of social order. And people are very confused and they're impoverished. What Americans are feeling now, this has been business as usual for Lebanese people, Palestinian people, Bosnian people.
What about Israeli people?
Certainly the fear element is there for Israeli people -- that's true, and the terror that they've felt. And there are still a lot of Jewish people alive who remember the fear and terror of what happened in Europe, so that's not far from people's memories.
It seems at some point, the cycles of violence have to stop. It's a type of insanity, especially when we're dealing with nuclear power. People are saying that this was an attack on civilization -- and that is exactly the point. And I think the question we all have to ask is whether indiscriminate retaliation is going to help preserve civilization.
The perpetrators of this and, really, all acts of terror are people who hate too much. There's a verse in the Koran that says do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Being just is closer to piety. The evil of wrath is that justice and mercy are lost.
How do you explain Palestinians and others celebrating the attacks in the streets?
When you see ignorant people in the streets, rejoicing -- the Prophet condemned it. It's rejoicing at the calamities of your enemies, and Islam prohibits that. They do have a lot of anger toward America, because America produces much of Israel's military hardware and so many American tax dollars go to support Israel. You have a lot of animosity in the Arab world. But the vast majority of Arabs are horrified by what's happened. There's animosity in the Muslim world toward American foreign policy. This is the unfortunate price of power and its exercise in the world, that you incur the resentment and animosity of a lot of people. But the majority of Muslims who I know don't have anger toward individuals or the American people.
The concept of jihad has been widely used to justify violence.
Jihad means struggle. The Prophet said the greatest jihad is the struggle of a man against his own evil influences. It also refers to what Christians call a ``just war,'' which is fought against tyranny or oppression -- but under a legitimate state authority.
What is the Arabic word for martyr?
Shaheed. It means witness. The martyr is the one who witnesses the truth and gives his life for it. There are people in this country like Martin Luther King who would be considered a martyr for his cause. Also, if your home, your family, your property or your land or religion is threatened, then you may defend it with your life. That person is a martyr. But so is anybody who dies of terminal illness; it's a martyr's death. Because it's such a purification that whatever wrongs they once did, they're now in a state of purity.
And the greatest martyr in the eyes of God is the one who stands in the presence of a tyrant and speaks the truth and is killed for it. He is martyred for his tongue.
What does Islam say about suicide?
Suicide is haram in Islam. It's prohibited, like a mortal sin. And murder is haram. And to kill civilians is murder.
What is a martyr's reward?
The Prophet said that a martyr who dies doesn't have a reckoning on the Day of Judgment. It's an act through which he is forgiven. But the Prophet also said that there are people who kill in the name of Islam and go to hell. And when he was asked why, he said, "Because they weren't fighting truly for the sake of God.''
If there are any martyrs in this affair it would certainly be those brave firefighters and police that went in there to save human lives and in that process lost their own.
Reproduced with the permission of Mercury News
http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/isl0916.htm
10 brief points Christians should know about Muslims and Jesus
1. Muslims love Jesus. We also love Abraham, Moses, and Noah, to name just a few other Prophets Muslims revere. May God's peace be upon all of these great messengers of God.
2. Muslims also love the mother of Jesus, the Virgin Mary. We believe she was a pious and noble woman chosen over all of the women of the world. In fact, according to some Muslim theologians, Mary is considered a prophet.
3. Muslims believe that Jesus was born miraculously of a virgin mother and no father. His birth is miraculous like the birth of Adam, the first human being, who was created with neither mother nor father.
4. Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. God is so powerful and self-sufficient that He does not need a son or any kind of partner.
5. In Arabic Bible the name for God is Allah. Therefore all Arab Christian call God Allah as Muslim do as well.
6. Jesus did not die on the cross. Rather, God saved him as his enemies were confused about him. Jesus was taken up by God to Heaven.
7. Jesus is called Isa (pronounced Eesa) in Arabic.
8. Jesus performed miracles by the Will of God, like healing the blind and those with leprosy.
9. Jesus prayed to the same God as all Prophets and we pray to.
10. Jesus will return before the end of the world.
1. Muslims love Jesus. We also love Abraham, Moses, and Noah, to name just a few other Prophets Muslims revere. May God's peace be upon all of these great messengers of God.
2. Muslims also love the mother of Jesus, the Virgin Mary. We believe she was a pious and noble woman chosen over all of the women of the world. In fact, according to some Muslim theologians, Mary is considered a prophet.
3. Muslims believe that Jesus was born miraculously of a virgin mother and no father. His birth is miraculous like the birth of Adam, the first human being, who was created with neither mother nor father.
4. Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. God is so powerful and self-sufficient that He does not need a son or any kind of partner.
5. In Arabic Bible the name for God is Allah. Therefore all Arab Christian call God Allah as Muslim do as well.
6. Jesus did not die on the cross. Rather, God saved him as his enemies were confused about him. Jesus was taken up by God to Heaven.
7. Jesus is called Isa (pronounced Eesa) in Arabic.
8. Jesus performed miracles by the Will of God, like healing the blind and those with leprosy.
9. Jesus prayed to the same God as all Prophets and we pray to.
10. Jesus will return before the end of the world.
Pushrod
Patriot
How can you claim that Islam does not condone terrorism when Kaine's posts of excerpts from the Qur'an expressly call for terrorism against non-Muslims;
And are you trying to befriend us Infidels now as to this edict of the Qu'ran?:
Don't ignore these passages for the more noble ones. The Qu'ran does preach violence in plenty against non-Muslims, you can't deny that and you can't pick and choose which parts you want to present. Your making yourself look like you have an agenda against US (the so-called non-believers), a dishonest murderous agenda.
Tell us, what is your real feelings towards us infidels?
Your religion has done nothing to ease our distrust of you. As many have said in this thread, we don't see those billions of Muslims standing on the streets and crying out for the heads of all the Muslim terrorists! You state that Terrorism is a crime, why are your religious leaders not issuing fetwahs (sp?) against the known terrorists, and calling for all Muslims to come together to bring these so-called subversive individuals to justice?
You made a statement about Isreal not giving back the lands that they occupied after the war in the 1950's, and then tried to compare that to what Iraq did with it's invasion of Kuwait. You can't logically do that! Kuwait was not the aggressor as Isreal was not the Aggressor. If during the Iraq-Kuwait war, Kuwait had prevailed and occupied some of the aggressor's (Iraq's) territory, than it would have been deserved.
Also, Palestine was never a country, but a collection of immigrants settled on that land because no other Muslim country would have them.
Please address all of these points individually and not make some blanket statement on how peaceful your religion is.
Thank you.
And are you trying to befriend us Infidels now as to this edict of the Qu'ran?:
Don't ignore these passages for the more noble ones. The Qu'ran does preach violence in plenty against non-Muslims, you can't deny that and you can't pick and choose which parts you want to present. Your making yourself look like you have an agenda against US (the so-called non-believers), a dishonest murderous agenda.
Tell us, what is your real feelings towards us infidels?
Your religion has done nothing to ease our distrust of you. As many have said in this thread, we don't see those billions of Muslims standing on the streets and crying out for the heads of all the Muslim terrorists! You state that Terrorism is a crime, why are your religious leaders not issuing fetwahs (sp?) against the known terrorists, and calling for all Muslims to come together to bring these so-called subversive individuals to justice?
You made a statement about Isreal not giving back the lands that they occupied after the war in the 1950's, and then tried to compare that to what Iraq did with it's invasion of Kuwait. You can't logically do that! Kuwait was not the aggressor as Isreal was not the Aggressor. If during the Iraq-Kuwait war, Kuwait had prevailed and occupied some of the aggressor's (Iraq's) territory, than it would have been deserved.
Also, Palestine was never a country, but a collection of immigrants settled on that land because no other Muslim country would have them.
Please address all of these points individually and not make some blanket statement on how peaceful your religion is.
Thank you.
I am by no means an expert of Islam but you need to read that entire section as a whole to grasp the full concept. Book 8 of the Qur'an, known as the AL-ANFAL (Spoils of war, booty), and the terror spoken of is one that Allah places within the enemy's mind making them suceptible to defeat.Pushrod said:
Shall we now look at both the Old and New Testament and hold Christians accountable for all of the laws within them?
The NT negates the OT. Jesus specifically says, several times, "you have heard it said..." then refutes it with "but I say to you..."Ken King said:
Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus do not subscribe to OT law because Jesus came and told them to cut it out.
itsbob
I bowl overhand
Why because I'm not stupid enough to get into an argument about religions??2ndAmendment said:
I think I added more with those few words then with the book you've posted so far..
Bottom line to both arguments is..
MY religion is RIGHT, yours is wrong..
MY saviour is better then yours..
BOTH sides think the other side is misled, misinformed and ignorant of THEIR religion..
Who do you think is going to win this argument?
I think we've beat this dead horse to glue.. lets move onto to the Baptists, or the Mormons.. or the 7th Day Adventist's.. lets argue with them now!!
2ndAmendment said:
I really don't want to get into arguing the history of our religions here. But since you brought it up I will give you a few examples
1. The crusades (Authorized by the Pope himself)
2. The Inquisitions
3. Bloody Mary and her story of love
4. Withcraft hunt and murders
5. And lets not forget the Holocaust. Though you have accused Muslims of wanting to annihilate jews, I don't think anyoen brought such atrocities as Hitler.
"Pope John XII had open love affairs. Urban VI tortured and murdered some of his cardinals. Innocent VIII proudly acknowledged his illegitimate children and heaped church riches upon them. Simony and nepotism were rampant. Most efforts ended in the reformers being called heretics and dying for their trouble." (http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_reformation.htm)
Islam has also never had paid pardons. I am sure you are not fimiliar with what I am talking about, are you?
Now, your response will probably be that those people were wrong and you condemn them, well we condemned Osama Bin Laden. As a matter of fact he was condemned by the Saudin government before the US decided to even notice him. They took away his citizenship and allowed him to not return to their country.
2ndAmendment said:
Once again, I don't think we will see eye to eye on these points. One thing I wanted to mention is that all Muslims have to believe in the Bible, and the Torah (old Testement) and Jesus (Isa in the Quran) and Moses (Musa in the Quran) Peace be on both of them. We have the utmost respect for them, so please don't take this discourse as disrespect, just a way to learn...
2ndAmendment said:
I agree that many countries are backwards in many aspect of freedom of religion. That can be combated not by the war on terror, but by people like you and I asking for change. I gave examples of how Prophet Mohammad lived with Jews and Christians of his time earlier, I think many Muslims need to follow that example.
Did you read my previous post. You lack of knowledge of the Bible is evident in your post. I'll repeat for the reading impaired.meelak said:
PJay
Well-Known Member
most I read it is pure evil with a capital E.
Testimonials from Ex-Muslims:
http://bibleprobe.com/islamapostates.htm
Testimonials from Ex-Muslims:
http://bibleprobe.com/islamapostates.htm
Toxick
Splat
itsbob said:
Actually you've added nothing to the discussion.
You've simply inserted poignant observation about the discussion itself while adding zero content to it.
To say you've added to the discussion is like saying John Madden added excitement to a football game.
Or more accurately: it's like saying John Madden added to the excitment of the game by interjecting pointless semantic barbs at both teams.
FromTexas
This Space for Rent
AliSamana said:
Hitler was not a Christian. He removed Catholic nuns from service jobs, took a secular marriage, did not take counsel from clergy, and he killed himself. None of this relates to his Catholic upbringing. On top of that, hundreds of thousands of Christians were also killed in concentraion camps along with the Jewish and Slavs.
Hitler would speak to God and paint a different picture for political purposes, but has been widely shown that to his party he denounced the influence of Christianity. He also made many public statements about nature and the strong replacing the weak; stating that only the weak would find this cruel. That is hardly Christian and references natural selection as a preference over Biblical truth.
So, you could say his attitude is more like the attitude of Muslim leaders who now call for the extermination of Israel by your own statements; that they use the religious angle to stir up people despite having little value in the religious claims themselves and its more a racial concept than a religious concept.
itsbob
I bowl overhand
FromTexas said:
Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. This text presents selected quotes from the infamous anti-Semite himself.
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
Chrisitan churches and the Catholics especially have always tried to distance themselves from Hitler..
Bottom line is, his speeches and his writings are full of his christian beliefs, and he used his Christian beliefs to gain the following of his mostly Catholic Country..
itsbob
I bowl overhand
SO you may not think Hitler a Christian or a Catholic, but at the time, he did, and so did his fellow countrymen, AND the Catholic Church..
His Brownshirts attended Mass, regular meetings with the heads of the Catholic Church by Hitler himself and his most ranking generals..
His Brownshirts attended Mass, regular meetings with the heads of the Catholic Church by Hitler himself and his most ranking generals..