What is Islam?

vincenzo4

New Member
18 Usc 1117

Abdulhaqq: Conspiracy does not merge. There has to be two people in agreement and an overt act in furtherance of that agreement.

Mike's statement is proof that terrorism is the calculated use of fear to achieve political, religious and ideological goals, and affects an audience beyond the immediate victims. Mike's reply is pure emotion, as much of the forum is these days apparently. Judging by the continuing revulsion of the war, the terrorists are very successful in (1) affecting the voter and (2) steering the election to a certain party, where for at least eight years they operated without fear.

If the Democrats get back in the driver's seat, the will kill us, and blame it all on Bush. I am convinced of it, after listening intently to ever lie and misrepresentation they have breathed in just the last year.

The offensive we face in Iraq today is an upscope by Iran and al Qaeda to maipulate that fear, and cause a shift in national will.

They have already won. We don't care anymore, and those who want to run things on ego like Webb have seized the vacuum.

Imagine what it must be like to be working 18-20 hour days with no days off and you hear and see their crap from television in Baghdad.

Lynn Cheney is right on the mark.

It isn't Bush, it's us.

Ken King said:
Mikeinsmd said: “I do have a desire to kill as many of you as I can.”

Abdulhaqq said: “PS: As a law student, I would advise you against making general statements against killing people, even if in jest. You could be prosecuted for the crime of conspirary if you took a substantial step towards the accomplishment of this crime. A substantial step could be many things, such as going to Walmart and looking at guns.”

As a person also interested in the laws of the land you might want to advance your knowledge of what conspiracy to murder actually is.
As defined in law at 18USC1117.


Mikeinsmd simply expressed a desire, which is not intent to do any harm, and as such would not by any means be considered as a threat to anyone nor would it constitute a conspiracy. At most he could only be found guilty of being a blowhard.
 

vincenzo4

New Member
Context

Take it our of context, that advances your agenda. How many historical figures in Islam ever advicated bloodletting and genocide? I wonder if Lisa Halaby or her wonderful husband would agree with you:

"...As someone with roots in both East and West, who has spent most of her adult life trying to build bridges between Arab and American culture, I have come to phrase the debate differently – not as a clash between Islam and Christianity, or between East and West, but between the forces of intolerance and the forces of understanding. In my work with the United Nations and human rights groups, I have time and again seen that the clashes that impede progress begin with those who insist their way is the only way; who paint the world in black and white.

No one culture has a monopoly on either virtue or intolerance; such qualities are not apportioned geographically, or by religion. Advocates of compassion and peace can be found in all houses of worship. I should know — my Grandfather was an Eastern Orthodox Christian Arab who emigrated to the United States and converted to Christian Science when he married my Grandmother. I was raised by my parents to find my own path, and converted to Islam when I married.
But I also know that a great gulf exists between those who are genuinely willing to listen to and empathize with others, and those who are not.

The greatest oppressors are those who feel entitled to impose by force their idea of what is right. The greatest injustices in human history occur when people believe so strongly in their own ideology that they are willing to hurt others in its name. The ideology can be one of self-preservation and lust for power, as with dictators. It can be paternalistic, viewing the oppression of women, minorities, and the otherwise disenfranchised as “for their own good.” Or, it can be a so-called defensive policy that targets all dissent as a threat that must be dealt with preemptively. All of these arguments have been used in one way or another to justify injustice and conflict..." Salvation Army Dinner Gala, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 2004.

(God Bless You Lisa, you are a blessing of a daughter and a fine Mother)

2ndAmendment said:
And as infidels, it can be said that we corrupt the land. So by this verse and being infidels that corrupt the land, i guess it is OK for Muslims to kill us according to the Qur'an.
 

AliSamana

New Member
How about a cup of coffee Mike?

I believe Mike wanted Muslims to condemn terrorism, well here I am as well. I am a part of the 1.4 billion muslims,that is mainstream, and to your surprise Mike, not a terrorist. As for denouncing terrorism, what is a better way than joining the military that works to fight terrorism every day. I am currently active duty, and though I don't know AbdulHaqq, he said his father is a Vietnam War Veteran.

The only question I have for you is what kind of a man hides behind a screenname while calls the son of a hero a towelhead? What kind of aman wants to kill all people within one race? Oh yeah, I remember...Hitler! No I am not comparing you to Hitler, however, please go back and read some of your posts. Here is a legitimate offer. You can email me, and I will buy you a cup of coffee. You can even bring your gun, I will answer questions about Islam, and at the end of an hour, if you want, you can start by killing me. Sound good?

Peacefully,

-Ali
 

AliSamana

New Member
Ken King said:
Mikeinsmd said: “I do have a desire to kill as many of you as I can.”

Abdulhaqq said: “PS: As a law student, I would advise you against making general statements against killing people, even if in jest. You could be prosecuted for the crime of conspirary if you took a substantial step towards the accomplishment of this crime. A substantial step could be many things, such as going to Walmart and looking at guns.”

As a person also interested in the laws of the land you might want to advance your knowledge of what conspiracy to murder actually is.
As defined in law at 18USC1117.


Mikeinsmd simply expressed a desire, which is not intent to do any harm, and as such would not by any means be considered as a threat to anyone nor would it constitute a conspiracy. At most he could only be found guilty of being a blowhard.


So, if I can say anything I want on the internet without any repricussions than why was a 14 year old girl visited by the Secret Service a couple of weeks ago? (http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/38768.html) Since you are so savvy in the legal system I am sure you are fimiliar with the term known as Mens Rea, meaning intent or will to kill. It may only take an articulate attorney to convince a judge that what he posted might be what he intends to do. I am not a lawyer, but you haven't claimed to be one either. Maybe we should leave the legal jargon for attorneys to figure out and leave out the temper tantrum and death threats for other forums. How does that sound?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Fascinating how the conversation has been redirected to some unfortunate remarks and taken away from the meat of the thread.

Carry on :popcorn:
 

AliSamana

New Member
I think we deviated from the meat of the conversation a long time ago. I do apprecaite your open mindedness, however, I think most of the conversation fell on deaf ears. If anyone has any real questions that have not been answered so far please feel free to post them, I, along with AbdulHaqq and Punjabigyl will try our best to answer them.

Thanks again for your open mindedness!
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
vincenzo4 said:
...
At least you read my post, that's why I incorrectly labeled it the 1990s vice the 1920s. ....
:bs: Are you a politician? Did you say, oops, I made a mistake. No. We get, "that's why I incorrectly labeled it ..." like it was on purpose to serve a higher purpose. :smack: :killingme
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
AliSamana said:
I think we deviated from the meat of the conversation a long time ago. I do apprecaite your open mindedness, however, I think most of the conversation fell on deaf ears. If anyone has any real questions that have not been answered so far please feel free to post them, I, along with AbdulHaqq and Punjabigyl will try our best to answer them.

Thanks again for your open mindedness!
I asked some real questions. They were never answered. Let me try again.
2ndAmendment said:
Then why is it that the Islamic countries want Israel annihilated? After all, the Jews also worship the God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses.

I am a Christian and I also worship God of Adam, the God of Noah, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses. ...

Why is it that Christians and Jews are not free to worship in most Muslim countries? It seems the majority of Islam does not practice the tolerance you proclaim.
2ndAmendment said:
Again. No such thing as "hate crime." No crime is a "love crime." Crime is crime. Murder is murder. Isn't strange how it is a "hate crime" when a white kills a black but it is not a "hate crime' when a black kills a white? Isn't each as heinous?
 

Hessian

Well-Known Member
Recap..

Lord let us be at their throats, and we ask you to give us refuge from their evil," read the prayer on a slip of paper, prosecutors said in court documents filed late Wednesday.

Wazhma Mojaddidi, Hamid Hayat's attorney, said it is a common Islamic prayer. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/08/terror.arrests.ap/)
**********
Banners proclaimed: "Islam will dominate the world" and "Those who do not rule by what Allah has revealed are oppressors." Preachers Abu Hamza al-Masri and Omar Bakri Muhammad addressed hundreds, casting Islam as the salve to a U.S.-led world of suffering. (http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/a...0321-print.html)
**********

and...
http://www.liberty-and-culture.com/pages/2/index.htm


Islam is corrupt--period.
A religion of pieces that follows a dead child-raping thief who gloried in abusing power, harrassing indigenous tribes, contradicting himself ("satanic verses"), and screwing up previous religious writings while worshipping a meteorite.

Islam got stuck in the 11th century and has contributed so little to benefit mankind (apart from the "zero") that you could list it on half of an index card.

Where are your Mozarts? Bells? Washingtons? Columbus'?

They are out mugging Jews, planting bombs, plotting to overthrow the "great satan." and printing huge fabrications in textbooks (ie: Jews drink blood and are Monkeys)..

THIS IS NOT AN ISOLATED GROUP THAT HAS TWISTED YOUR RELIGION!
it would take me a few minutes to find news accounts across the world from Nigeria, to Sudan, to Egypt, to Somolia, to Pakistan, to India, to Russia, to Indonesia.....to FRANCE...about fanatics rioting, attacking churches, abductions, beheadings, false imprisonments, school bombings, nun assasinations, extortions etc....


all in the name of your glorious prophet and your mythical god allah.
Deny it.

Why not be true to your faith? Declare us all infidels that must submit or die and hand out candy to kids every 9/11 to celebrate the glorious 19?
 

Mikeinsmd

New Member
AliSamana said:
The only question I have for you is what kind of a man hides behind a screenname while calls the son of a hero a towelhead? What kind of aman wants to kill all people within one race? Oh yeah, I remember...Hitler! No I am not comparing you to Hitler, however, please go back and read some of your posts. Here is a legitimate offer. You can email me, and I will buy you a cup of coffee. You can even bring your gun, I will answer questions about Islam, and at the end of an hour, if you want, you can start by killing me. Sound good? Peacefully, -Ali
Ok let me clarify some things here.

1. I have no desire to sit with you and ask you questions about islam. I know all I need to know.

2. You did compare me to Hitler so lets break it down. Hitler wanted to annihilate a race of people who were peaceful. Muslims want to annihilate anyone in the world who doesn't worship their God by condoning and participating in terrorism. I want to annihilate these Muslims. So why did you bring up Hitler?? I'm confused.

3. I don't hide anywhere. Never have, never will.

4. I will not kill you or anyone else. It is illegal and unlike the barbarians you and some others are here to defend, I will abide by our laws.

5. I posted to AbdulHaqq: "I have no desire to discuss your warped religion with you or anyone else. I do have a desire to kill as many of you as I can. Deal with it!"

6. I stand behind every post I put in this thread. That's how I feel and it's my opinion.

7. As I replied to Bustem, I am the worlds biggest bigot when it comes to this topic and I don't care who doesn't like it.

8. As I replied to Juggy, I say what the majority are thinking.

9. Thank you for your service to our country.




AliSamana said:
I think we deviated from the meat of the conversation a long time ago. I do apprecaite your open mindedness, however, I think most of the conversation fell on deaf ears. If anyone has any real questions that have not been answered so far please feel free to post them, I, along with AbdulHaqq and Punjabigyl will try our best to answer them.
I know you don't want advice from a redneck bigot but I'm offering it anyway.

While AbdulHaqq actually seems to be semi-educated, I suggest you search Punjabigyl's other posts and decide if you still want to align yourself with her. She's not the sharpest tack in the box.
 
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Mikeinsmd

New Member
punjabigyrl said:
nobody has to align themselves to me or anyone else. I wrote my opinon... deal with it.
The "reply with quote" button is your friend. :lmao:

I suggest you direct your angst at AliSamana. He's the one who included you in his post. :bubble:
 

vincenzo4

New Member
Higher Purpose

I stated my reason, that's all there is to this.

2ndAmendment said:
:bs: Are you a politician? Did you say, oops, I made a mistake. No. We get, "that's why I incorrectly labeled it ..." like it was on purpose to serve a higher purpose. :smack: :killingme
 
K

Kain99

Guest
How horrible it must be, to be hated for something your brother did.
 

Hessian

Well-Known Member
Kain99 said:
How horrible it must be, to be hated for something your brother did.

but your family fully approved of....
ie suicide bombing, honor murders, going to iraq to kill Sunnis/Kurds/Shi'ites/American relief workers.

(and they consider it an honor!)
(and Iraq used to pay bonuses...now they have to rely on Hamas and Iran)
 
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K

Kain99

Guest
Hessian said:
but your family fully approved of....
ie suicide bombing, honor murders, going to iraq to kill Sunnis/Kurds/Shi'ites/American relief workers.

(and they consider it an honor!)
I think it is dangerous to lump them all together. At least, I pray it is.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
AliSamana said:
So, if I can say anything I want on the internet without any repricussions than why was a 14 year old girl visited by the Secret Service a couple of weeks ago? (http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/38768.html) Since you are so savvy in the legal system I am sure you are fimiliar with the term known as Mens Rea, meaning intent or will to kill. It may only take an articulate attorney to convince a judge that what he posted might be what he intends to do. I am not a lawyer, but you haven't claimed to be one either. Maybe we should leave the legal jargon for attorneys to figure out and leave out the temper tantrum and death threats for other forums. How does that sound?
No, some things written in forums like this can bite you in the ass, but stating that one has a "desire" to do something is considerably different than saying that they are going to "do" something. And as to the Latin term Mens Rea, which is not as narrowly defined as you have stated, it means criminal intent, the state of mind indicating culpability which is required by statute as an element of a crime.

I tried your link but choose not to register to read it, I take it since the Secret Service was involved it was a threat aimed at a high ranking government official, which in itself is covered by a different statute.

And you are correct that I am no lawyer, I just have a keen interest in the law as I find it fascinating. The only reason it was brought up at all is because of the posting made as to possible legal repercussions for the statement that was made.

And now you can continue with the topic of your conversation as I have not partaken in either a tantrum or a death threat and truly have no issue with the majority that practice the religion of Islam, only those that skew it for their dastardly agendas.
 

abdulhaqq

New Member
Dear Hessian,

You've made several statements that I will address in succession.

Firstly, I'm not surprised that the same people who keep espousing the claim that 'islam is violent, barbaric, etc' are the same ones who can't make distinctions between a small category of individuals and groups and an entire religion whose adherents make up 1.2 billion people. With regards to the people carrying signs that said "Islam will dominate the world", they are from a fringe group called Hizb e Tehrir and Al Muhajiroun. The fact that you cite to this group as purportedly representing the majority of Muslims is a display of the profound ignorance you have the Muslim world. Hizb e Tehrir and Al Muhajiroun are banned all through out Muslim countries. They are not supported by Muslim governments anywhere in the world. That is why they exist in Western countries such as the Uk. To claim that the majority of Muslims represent these groups is just absurd. Theologically speaking, the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world doesn't adhere to the theology espoused by these groups. There are many Muslim scholars who have devoted their entire lives in refuting these groups.

Secondly, with regards to Israel, most Muslims all over the world have no problem with accepting Israel as a state. In fact, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas is calling exactly for this. He happens to be a Muslim. Its another group, HAMAS, which is calling for the extermination of Israel. Israel's neighbors have also recognized it. Lets not forget Jordan, Egypt, and Turkey, all of whom happen to be Muslim countries.

Thirdly, with regards to your slanderous claims against Muhammad (peace be upon him), I can raise similar claims from Biblical figures. The prophetic biography is more than enough proof against your absurd allegations, which will be exposed in due time, God willing.

Fourthly, your claim that Islam is a medieval religion that cannot adjust to modern life is also an ignorant claim. Within Islamic jurisprudence, through the legal mechanism of 'ijtehad' which is independent reasoning, the Muslim understanding of their theology is always kept up to date for new circumstances and a re-interpretation of old issues.

Fifthly, I'm glad you raised the question of Muslim contribution. I'll be more than happy to indulge you in a little bit of history that confirms that Islamic civilization's contribution to humanity has been more positive than negative. For starters, lets take a look at this page that gives a brief synopsis on Muslim Philosophers:
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/#people

The Muslim contributions to civilization are well known, especially in the fields of mathematics (algebra), astronomy, sailing (astrolabe), geography, history, etc. The recent winner of the Nobel Peace Prize was a Muslim. The designer of the Sears Tower was a Muslim. I suggest you study Islam a little more before making such preposterous claims. You make yourself look uneducated.

Sixthly, your constant reference to Muslim anti-semitism is also misleading. If I recall, the Jewish Golden Age occurred in Muslim Spain. Muslim Spain was eliminated through the Inquisition which also targeted Jews in the name of "Christianity". Where did these Jews go? They didn't re-settle in other parts of anti-Semitic Europe, they re-settled within Muslim lands in the Ottoman Empire where many achieved high status and ranks within their government.

Seventy, I honestly could care less about most of your claims, but nothing is more absurd than your claim that Muslims worship Allah on blind faith. If you've read the Qu'ran and had one iota of intellect, you would realize that Islam is not built upon blind faith. In the Qu'ran, God question's humanity's belief system on blind faith. Islam rejects those who adopt religions based on the mere fact that their ancestors followed that religion or that it makes them feel good. There are countless verses in the Qur'an that enjoin mankind to use their intellect. In Islamic history, there have been countless theologians who have worked diligently to prove the existence of the Creator. There are hundreds of proofs available from classical Muslim theologians who worked closely with Christians and Jews in their pursuit of the supremacy of monothiesm.

If you want to see the Muslim influence on Christian and Jewish theology, I suggest you read "The Philosophy of the Kalam" By Professor Harry Wolfson which gives a detailed exposition of Muslim theology using philosophical methods:
http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/books/kalam.pdf

I find it interesting that you're telling me that its 'irrational' to believe in one God who asks humanity to believe in Him through proofs and not blind faith, yet you divide God into three parts which is logically absurd and yet claim that he's one and take it on blind faith. What's the proof for that? Is it rational or is it based on blind faith?

Lastly, your claim that Islam is inherently violent and barbaric has been met responded to repeatedly in this thread directly from Islamic textual sources such as the Qur'an and Hadeeth and also in the form of legal verdicts from scholars from all over the Muslim world. If you want to be a suspicious paranoid who rants and ignores the explicit facts, be my guest friend.

There are over 1.4 billion Muslims in the world and over 6 million in America. The overwhelming majority are peaceful people who want the same freedoms that everybody else does. Your stereotyping of 1/6th of the world is a reflection of your ignorance, not of Islam.

With Peace,
Abdulhaqq
 
K

Kain99

Guest
I'm almost 100% certain that Muslims and Christians worship the same God. Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
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