What the Gospel of Judas really says

[ItalianScallion]

Okay, let's say that He saw me go to Outback tomorrow night at 7pm. Done deal, he saw me do it, and that's that. Exaclty how am I not going to go to Outback then? Remember the given: he already saw me go there.

I think the others answered this pretty well but I'll respond since you asked me. Maybe you're thinking this through too much. If God saw you go there, then you'll go there because it was YOUR choice. If you weren't going there, then God wouldn't have seen you go there. God only sees what will happen and that's how He knows what we'll do before we do it. Again, if you got there then changed your mind, He'd have seen that too. Don't make this so difficult, it's nothing more than God knowing all things and being an observer in our lives. In some cases, He does intervene to protect us.

 

[This_person]

thats not what the golden rule means at all......

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


If they can't/won't do unto you, how is what I said different than the golden rule?

Or, what is it that makes man's life worth more than my hamburger at lunch?

 

[Xaquin44]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


If they can't/won't do unto you, how is what I said different than the golden rule?

Or, what is it that makes man's life worth more than my hamburger at lunch?

we evolved more.

 

[This_person]

we evolved more.

Which makes us smarter and able to communicate better. Which means my life is worth more than an Australian aboriginal? Makes your life worth more than someone with Down's Syndrome?

 

[Xaquin44]

Which makes us smarter and able to communicate better. Which means my life is worth more than an Australian aboriginal? Makes your life worth more than someone with Down's Syndrome?

wow.

Thats quite a few mean words you put in my mouth.

tsk tsk tsk

Australian aboriginals are the exact same as us .... they just speak a different language.

People with Down's Syndrome are the exact same as you and I, they just (unjustly) (but hey, that's in gods hands) suffer from a disease.

 

[This_person]

wow.

Thats quite a few mean words you put in my mouth.

tsk tsk tsk

Australian aboriginals are the exact same as us .... they just speak a different language.

People with Down's Syndrome are the exact same as you and I, they just (unjustly) (but hey, that's in gods hands) suffer from a disease.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, but ask questions.

Clearly, I don't understand the import of evolution.

What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an angel! In apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world! The paragon of animals! And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust?

 

[tommyjones]

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.


If they can't/won't do unto you, how is what I said different than the golden rule?

Which would mean we wouldn't really care unless it could effect us.

those are completely different thoughts and ideals:
the golden rule say treat other people as you would want to be treated.
your interpretation is that you should treat people the way they treat you.

Or, what is it that makes man's life worth more than my hamburger at lunch?

nothing makes our life more than any animals' or plants' lives. The christain idea that we are somehow better than every other living thing on the earth is what has lead to the extermination of countless species and the slaughter of millions of less superior humans.
I prefer to think of all life as special and great and i feel true thanks and understanding when i eat an animal that i have killed knowing that its life of freedom was ended by me for my survival. When the life is taken with respect and thanks life is balanced and can continue.
What you are describing is man dominating the earth, and we see how well that is working out for the earth so far......

 

[fredcaudle]

"I prefer to think of all life as special and great and i feel true thanks and understanding when i eat an animal that i have killed knowing that its life of freedom was ended by me for my survival. When the life is taken with respect and thanks life is balanced and can continue."

So, when an animal comes into a "neighborhood" and attacks a child - does that animal give thanks for his/its freedom?

"What you are describing is man dominating the earth, and we see how well that is working out for the earth so far......"

Man dominating the earth is not working out well... i.e. murders etc. And I've yet to find any non-religious answers that will make it better either.

 

[tommyjones]

So, when an animal comes into a "neighborhood" and attacks a child - does that animal give thanks for his/its freedom?

i dont know, but its not my opinion that they have that level of concious thought, they only attack a child on prey instinct or a fight for survival. But good job demonizing the animals, its their fault i am sure.

"What you are describing is man dominating the earth, and we see how well that is working out for the earth so far......"

Man dominating the earth is not working out well... i.e. murders etc. And I've yet to find any non-religious answers that will make it better either.

or any religious ones either

 

[fredcaudle]

i dont know, but its not my opinion that they have that level of concious thought, they only attack a child on prey instinct or a fight for survival. But good job demonizing the animals, its their fault i am sure.




or any religious ones either

their level of "concious thought" is not the same according to your opinion... how then are they equal to humans (or humans as species)?

"or any religious ones either" - so you agree nonreligion is useless?

 

[tommyjones]

their level of "concious thought" is not the same according to your opinion... how then are they equal to humans (or humans as species)?

"or any religious ones either" - so you agree nonreligion is useless?

only if you agree that religon is usless. :whatatool:


the same way men and women are equal but different.

 

[fredcaudle]

only if you agree that religon is usless. :whatatool:


the same way men and women are equal but different.

Religion is useless. Faith in Jesus Christ is not.

Religion is man made.

Faith comes from the heart. But this is even useless to you - for you don't believe in faith.

So, nonreligion is useless and to you faith is useless, and to you religion is useless. Don't run for office - you have nothing to offer mankind.

Or do you have a solution?

 

[tommyjones]

Religion is useless. Faith in Jesus Christ is not.

Religion is man made.

Faith comes from the heart. But this is even useless to you - for you don't believe in faith.

So, nonreligion is useless and to you faith is useless, and to you religion is useless. Don't run for office - you have nothing to offer mankind.

Or do you have a solution?

i just have faith in differnt things than you do.
as for religion, i agree it is man made, as are the bible and the quran

 

[~mellabella~]

i just have faith in differnt things than you do.
as for religion, i agree it is man made, as are the bible and the quran

The Bible is inspired by the Spirit of God though. So its God's words written down by God's people.

 

[tommyjones]

The Bible is inspired by the Spirit of God though. So its God's words written down by God's people.

ok, how is that different from the quran or any other book alegedly inspried by god?

 

[This_person]

those are completely different thoughts and ideals:
the golden rule say treat other people as you would want to be treated.
your interpretation is that you should treat people the way they treat you.

I found it interesting that you picked the golden rule as a guide for how people should be treated (why humans are more important than cattle). My point in asking the question, as mAlice will attest, is that the American atheist has primarily Christian morals from being around Christians so much. As you show below (and above, and other threads.....) there is no foundation for any morality in atheism. With no difference between a rock, a tree, a cat, and a human (we're all just chemicals) in inherent value, there is no foundation for morals, for "right" or "wrong". But, the Golden Rule is, after all, a religious concept:

"Therefore all things whatsoever you desire that men should do to you, do you even so to them. For this is the Law and the prophets."
-- New Testament, Matthew 7:12

"No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself."
-- Koran, Sunnah, from the Islam tradition

"Hurt not others in ways that you find hurtful."
-- Tripitaka, Udanga-varga 5,18 , from the Buddhist tradition

"What is hateful to you, do not to our fellow man. That is entire Law, all the rest is commentary."
-- Talmud, Shabbat 31a, from the Judaic tradition

nothing makes our life more than any animals' or plants' lives. The christain idea that we are somehow better than every other living thing on the earth is what has lead to the extermination of countless species and the slaughter of millions of less superior humans.

So, if you eat anything that was alive (an apple, a cow, a ham sandwich....) you are committing something equal to murder? Or, is murder not a problem for you?

I prefer to think of all life as special and great and i feel true thanks and understanding when i eat an animal that i have killed knowing that its life of freedom was ended by me for my survival. When the life is taken with respect and thanks life is balanced and can continue.

Okay, so if you respect the guy you kill, then it's okay?

What you are describing is man dominating the earth, and we see how well that is working out for the earth so far......

Is the earth in trouble? Will it not be around soon? Or, are we worried about man, and whether we're hurting mankind (not the earth)?

 

[This_person]

And your reason for your "Moral"ity is because it gets you into heaven. Your "Moral"ity isnt any less selfish than an Atheist belief in the Golden Rule, its just yours is wrapped in religion.

But its still the same selfish reasoning

Actually, no. Morality is understanding what is right, and that the reason for "doing unto others..." is that it is best for all people, not just me. Understanding that it is glorifying the creator, not for selfish reasons. It's primarily for UNselfish reasons, actually.

That's the difference between a religious person and an atheist - we get unselfishness better.

 

[tommyjones]

I found it interesting that you picked the golden rule as a guide for how people should be treated (why humans are more important than cattle). My point in asking the question, as mAlice will attest, is that the American atheist has primarily Christian morals from being around Christians so much. As you show below (and above, and other threads.....) there is no foundation for any morality in atheism. With no difference between a rock, a tree, a cat, and a human (we're all just chemicals) in inherent value, there is no foundation for morals, for "right" or "wrong". But, the Golden Rule is, after all, a religious concept:

"Therefore all things whatsoever you desire that men should do to you, do you even so to them. For this is the Law and the prophets."
-- New Testament, Matthew 7:12

"No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself."
-- Koran, Sunnah, from the Islam tradition

"Hurt not others in ways that you find hurtful."
-- Tripitaka, Udanga-varga 5,18 , from the Buddhist tradition

"What is hateful to you, do not to our fellow man. That is entire Law, all the rest is commentary."
-- Talmud, Shabbat 31a, from the Judaic tradition

So, if you eat anything that was alive (an apple, a cow, a ham sandwich....) you are committing something equal to murder? Or, is murder not a problem for you?Okay, so if you respect the guy you kill, then it's okay?Is the earth in trouble? Will it not be around soon? Or, are we worried about man, and whether we're hurting mankind (not the earth)?

the golden rule may have been incorperated into religion, that does not mean it is unique to christianity.

you can not understand nonchristian ideals useing christianity anymore than i can undersatand christianity using islam.

do onto others would preclude one from killing another human as you would not want to be killed.

killing for survival is ok, but killing hundreds of buffalo to make a buck and justifying that its ok becasue they dont have as much intrinsic value is not.

 

[This_person]

the golden rule may have been incorperated into religion, that does not mean it is unique to christianity.

Since I showed it in Christianity, Islam, Buddism, and Judaic traditions, I would agree with you. My point was that it is a religious concept that atheists have adopted, not the other way around.

do onto others would preclude one from killing another human as you would not want to be killed.

So, you are making my point - your interpretation of the concept is selfishness.

killing for survival is ok, but killing hundreds of buffalo to make a buck and justifying that its ok becasue they dont have as much intrinsic value is not.

So, if I had to kill people to make sure that I got to work on time (say, by running over a pedestrian in my way, etc.), keeping my status as breadwinner in my family and thus ensuring my survival and my family's, that's okay?

 

[~mellabella~]

ok, how is that different from the quran or any other book alegedly inspried by god?

The Muslims believe the Qur'an was written by divine guidance from Allah, revealed to Muhammad by Gabriel over a period of 23 years. This 'Allah' is not the same God that the Christians believe in. Many think it is, but I don't. If you read and compare the two books, you will see the differences and discrepencies between the two.