When is Enough...enough?

[Larry Gude]

And I specifically...

And THIS is the question. Because people don't change much at all, contrary to what Larry's trying to say. They only change if they want to, not because someone *else* wants them to.

...make my argument in terms of motivation. Elaine's asking the question because people do change, sometimes for the worse which means changing for the better is also possible.

And why, if he changed for the worse, did he do so? Just because he's an immature man/child who wants to be a bad dad and bad husband? This doesn't happen in a vacuum.

 

[SamSpade]

It just means women hold incredible influence over men.

Sure do.

For my wife - I cut my hair. Trimmed my beard. Improved my hygiene. Got a better job. Lost weight. Sold my house and bought a new one with her. Got rid of my cats. Changed my wardrobe. I changed in ways I can't even count. I still think my theme song with her is "You're the Best Thing That Ever Happened to Me".

There's ONE proviso, though that makes the difference here. She didn't really change me - she gave me a reason - a motivation - to change. Because of her, I wanted to change. I always could, but now I had a reason.

I think over time this kind of stuff in marriages and relationships dwindles because we both stop trying. You both lose the motivation for whatever reason. You might still think you can get them to change, but they don't give a crap anymore. Somewhere along the line, whatever it was that made them want to try is gone.

 

[Larry Gude]

The first...

Name one instance where you've seen this in real life.

...and, pretty much, last time I farted in front of you.

 

[vraiblonde]

There's ONE proviso, though that makes the difference here. She didn't really change me - she gave me a reason - a motivation - to change. Because of her, I wanted to change. I always could, but now I had a reason.

Thank you and that's all I was trying to say.

Wife's husband will change because he wants to, not because she nags him into it. If it's important to him to be with his wife and daughter on family activities, you wouldn't be able to keep him away. Obviously it's not important to him, and he has no desire to change it. So her best option is to go about her business, do the family things she wants to do. If he joins them, great. If not, oh well.

 

[vraiblonde]

...and, pretty much, last time I farted in front of you.

That's only because I threatened to cut you off.

 

[Larry Gude]

That's superficial...

I disagree. How a man feels about a woman is his and his alone. There are guys who are happily in love with some beast you wouldn't clean the floor with, and guys who run out on the sweetest and kindest woman in the world.

Women have no control over how a guy feels about them and what he is willing to do for them. The only thing she has control over is what kind of man she'll accept into her life.

...by definition.


A beast you wouldn't clean the floor with? By whose definition? Do you mean a woman who makes him feel terrible about himself and their marriage?

A what of sweet and kind? In whose opinion? I've yet to meet the man who said "She was sweet and kind and made me feel great about myself and our marriage and...I dumped the #####. I need someone who makes me feel horrible."

I'm not arguing what does or doesn't work or what should or shouldn't, for whomever. I am arguing that the women has strong mojo with him.

 

[Larry Gude]

That...

That's only because I threatened to cut you off.

...would be your perspective.

My perspective is you said to me; " don't like that. It's not attractive. It doesn't make me want to have sex with you."

There is a world of difference between "You didn't fart, you may now have sex' vs. "You didn't fart, I WANT to have sex with you."

 

[BS Gal]

...and, pretty much, last time I farted in front of you.

 

[kwillia]

Catt! You post deleting freak... I was about to quote you. I completely agree with your stance having had to come to that conclusion myself a few years ago. Once I had that epiphany and went on merrily with life he recognized the world no longer revolved around his personal schedule. This epiphany for him resulted in HIM having to MAKE IT A POINT that he be included in things me and/or the kids were happily doing. He has since become so involved in what we do that I consider him to actually be aggrevatingly underfoot at times...

 

[Larry Gude]

And the reason...

There's ONE proviso, though that makes the difference here. She didn't really change me - she gave me a reason - a motivation - to change. Because of her, I wanted to change. I always could, but now I had a reason.

...you changed was...her. Not you. Not what YOU wanted to do. It was what YOU wanted to do...FOR her.

 

[vraiblonde]

"She was sweet and kind and made me feel great about myself and our marriage and...I dumped the #####. I need someone who makes me feel horrible."

See, and there's where we differ. I don't believe you can "make" someone feel good or bad about themselves. They'll feel about themselves how they will, regardless of how *you* feel about them.

Sweet, kind, nurturing women get dumped ALL the time. Many times for a shallow hottie. "She's too clingy," the guy will use as an excuse. It's so common, it's cliche.

 

[Larry Gude]

And why do they stop trying?

I think over time this kind of stuff in marriages and relationships dwindles because we both stop trying. You both lose the motivation for whatever reason. You might still think you can get them to change, but they don't give a crap anymore. Somewhere along the line, whatever it was that made them want to try is gone.

Lose the motivation why?

I know people who never stopped trying. I think those who stop trying are the ones who stop getting what they need to stay motivated which is the same thing that always motivated them; her affection.

 

[SamSpade]

Thank you and that's all I was trying to say.

Wife's husband will change because he wants to, not because she nags him into it. If it's important to him to be with his wife and daughter on family activities, you wouldn't be able to keep him away. Obviously it's not important to him, and he has no desire to change it. So her best option is to go about her business, do the family things she wants to do. If he joins them, great. If not, oh well.

My only beef with this story in the thread is we have zero input from the guy. I wish I had a nickel for every time I've heard from both sides of a couple on the same situation, and each side managed to edit out some very inconvenient details that would have derailed their "side".

Years ago, I knew a man for whom joining his wife and daughter on outings would have meant a tag team of public humiliation by the two of them. So his solution was to avoid them.

So I don't know if it's "not important" to him. I do know it's not important ENOUGH. For all we know, he stays home for the sheer RELIEF.

 

[Qurious]

I defiently think you should just go without him unless it involves your daughter. Like if she has a school function or recidal both parents should definetly be there.

I dont know of many men who make plans without passing it through their wife first...but it seems like thats exactly what he's doing. Making plans without telling you and then when u expect for him to go with you and your daughter you get upset when he says no.

COMMUNICATION.

When you start do do activities without him he'll eventually miss the time you two spend together. Invite him, if he says no or that he has plans then let him be...dont nag him about it and dont force him to go, all he is going to do is sulk and not enjoy himself and in turn that flucks up your day.

Of course going to events by yourself could backfire and there may be a deeper issue here and u may need to consider divorce.

 

[vraiblonde]

I think those who stop trying are the ones who stop getting what they need to stay motivated which is the same thing that always motivated them; her affection.

And why would they lose her affection?

 

[SamSpade]

Lose the motivation why?

I know people who never stopped trying. I think those who stop trying are the ones who stop getting what they need to stay motivated which is the same thing that always motivated them; her affection.

Well you've answered your own question. I think that's it most of the time.

 

[SamSpade]

And why would they lose her affection?

Do you guys need your own thread?

 

[Larry Gude]

I know that...

See, and there's where we differ. I don't believe you can "make" someone feel good or bad about themselves. They'll feel about themselves how they will, regardless of how *you* feel about them.

Sweet, kind, nurturing women get dumped ALL the time. Many times for a shallow hottie. "She's too clingy," the guy will use as an excuse. It's so common, it's cliche.

...and I'm certainly not trying to change your mind. I'm offering up my opinion for Wifeandmother's consideration. She's free to take it or leave it as it applies or is helpful to her relationship.

No one has ever come close to making me feel as high as you have when you just give me that glance when I knew your love and affection was behind it. I can't make myself feel that; it comes from you.

Nothing hurts more when it's not there.

THAT is motivation. Any 'sweet, kind, nurturing' woman who got dumped didn't make him feel that way.

 

[Larry Gude]

Because...

And why would they lose her affection?

...they did not do for her what she needed to keep the affection going.

Why did he stop doing what she needed?

 

[Larry Gude]

Yes...

Well you've answered your own question. I think that's it most of the time.

....but the point was what you and I agree on; the power women have over men.