Why Do Cops Bother?

[ylexot]

Sorry retired Maryland State Police Sgt. Rob Moroney. You may ID the bike in question, but you'd still have to prove the owner is riding it at that time prior to taking any action. Fourth Amendment and all that.
Nice try though.
Ed

Fourth Amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

You don't think that seizure of the vehicle is reasonable? If not, why not?

 

[edinsomd]

Burden of proof. If the state is going to seize property from the owner, the state will have to prove the owner is operating the vehicle at that time. They could issue a ticket to the owner and make it pricey- making it a civil infraction and the burden of proof is preponderance of evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt.
Ed

 

[Foxhound]

If the individual can prove the vehicle was stolen, or the person riding it did not have express permission to ride it. If you loan it to one person and they let someone else ride it.

Otherwise I think it's your responsibility to not allow someone to ride your bike unless you are willing to suffer the consequences of their actions.

 

[MMDad]

Fourth Amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

You don't think that seizure of the vehicle is reasonable? If not, why not?

I'd be more concerned on 8th amendment grounds. If the fines for the offense were, for example $5K, and they confiscate a $10K bike, isn't the fine now effectively doubled?

For the 4th amendment issue, a well documented case with pictures, or even better video, should satisfy probable cause.

Another tactic could be to send the evidence to the insurance company. All vehicles are required to be insured, and the insurance information has to be provided to MVA. If an insurance company learned their client was blatantly breaking laws, they would cancel. No insurance would void the tag. No tag, no bike on the road. Problem solved.

 

[MMDad]

Burden of proof. If the state is going to seize property from the owner, the state will have to prove the owner is operating the vehicle at that time. They could issue a ticket to the owner and make it pricey- making it a civil infraction and the burden of proof is preponderance of evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt.
Ed

If your vehicle is being used to transport drugs it can be confiscated even if they cannot prove that you were the one transporting the drugs. That has been upheld by SCOTUS. This would be no different.

 

[edinsomd]

If the individual can prove the vehicle was stolen, or the person riding it did not have express permission to ride it. If you loan it to one person and they let someone else ride it.

Otherwise I think it's your responsibility to not allow someone to ride your bike unless you are willing to suffer the consequences of their actions.

Nonsense. Ever let your son or daughter drive your car? A buddy borrow your truck? Are you responsibe if they are ticketed? No. Why should the owner suffer loss of the vehicle for the actions of the rider? Makes no sense at all.
Ed
PS
Personally, no one EVER drives my bike, but me.

 

[ylexot]

Burden of proof. If the state is going to seize property from the owner, the state will have to prove the owner is operating the vehicle at that time. They could issue a ticket to the owner and make it pricey- making it a civil infraction and the burden of proof is preponderance of evidence, not beyond reasonable doubt.
Ed

If the vehicle is proven to be used in a sufficiently unlawful manner (i.e. extremely reckless driving/riding and evading police), why can't it be seized no matter who was driving/riding it? If you let someone else do it with your vehicle, too f'n bad. Choose better friends. :shrug:

 

[edinsomd]

If your vehicle is being used to transport drugs it can be confiscated even if they cannot prove that you were the one transporting the drugs. That has been witheld by SCOTUS. This would be no different.

That's a criminal violation, not a civil one. Different rules. Is running from the cops equivilant to felony transportation of narcotics? I don't know, but I doubt it. If I'm zipping along on my bike and just don't notice the trooper failing to close on me, am I actually running or just speeding, and can the State prove intent one way or the other?

Any decent rider on a hyperbike can leave the police in the dust without much effort, which is I think a large part of the hyperbole from Law Enforcement. They know it and they don't like it.

I dislike the idea of the State eroding my rights as a citizen to provide for the "greater good". Smacks of Socialism.
Ed

 

[ylexot]

That's a criminal violation, not a civil one. Different rules. Is running from the cops equivilant to felony transportation of narcotics? I don't know, but I doubt it. If I'm zipping along on my bike and just don't notice the trooper failing to close on me, am I actually running or just speeding, and can the State prove intent one way or the other?

Reckless driving either way. :shrug:

Any decent rider on a hyperbike can leave the police in the dust without much effort, which is I think a large part of the hyperbole from Law Enforcement. They know it and they don't like it.

Yeah, how dare those cops want to be able to enforce the law

I dislike the idea of the State eroding my rights as a citizen to provide for the "greater good". Smacks of Socialism.
Ed

Since when was it a right to travel far above the speed limit and evade the police?

 

[edinsomd]

Reckless driving either way. :shrug:

Yeah, how dare those cops want to be able to enforce the law

Since when was it a right to travel far above the speed limit and evade the police?

Is reckless driving a felony? Stupid, yes, but a felony? I don't know. :shrug:

How dare those cops endanger everyone else on the road chasing a speeding ticket to generate revenue?

Its not a right to travel far above the speed limit, I never said it was. It's the idea of the State confiscating private property without meeting a certain level of evidence. Bill of Rights.

Good posts, thanks for the discussion, ylexot.
Ed

 

[Foxhound]

I think it's the responsibility of every vehicle owner to make sure they don't allow some one to endanger others lives with their vehicle. I personally will not allow someone I don't feel responsible to ride my bike or drive any of my car/truck/boat. By the same manner I would not allow anyone I didn't deem responsible shoot any of my weapons! They are DEADLY, people can and have died due to the actions of one idiots driving/piloting.Didn't I see something just last night on the news about a cyclist causing a multi car lethal pileup? It's your vehicle it's your responsibility to make sure it isn't used in a irresponsible manner.


Seize that bike!!! It's just my opinion.

 

[edinsomd]

I think it's the responsibility of every vehicle owner to make sure they don't allow some one to endanger others lives with their vehicle. I personally will not allow someone I don't feel responsible to ride my bike or drive any of my car/truck/boat. By the same manner I would not allow anyone I didn't deem responsible shoot any of my weapons! They are DEADLY, people can and have died due to the actions of one idiots driving/piloting.Didn't I see something just last night on the news about a cyclist causing a multi car lethal pileup? It's your vehicle it's your responsibility to make sure it isn't used in a irresponsible manner.


Seize that bike!!! It's just my opinion.

Ever have a teenage son?
You're welcome to your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Ride safe,
Ed

 

[Foxhound]

Nope I've never had one. But I have been one. My father took away my privileges for a month when I got a speeding ticket. He never would have allowed me to ride a motorcycle, I guarantee that!! Rightly so I might add. There isn't a teenage alive that has common sense enough to be allowed to ride a street bike. Now a dirt bike, under adult supervision okay.

 

[edinsomd]

Nope I've never had one. But I have been one. My father took away my privileges for a month when I got a speeding ticket. He never would have allowed me to ride a motorcycle, I guarantee that!! Rightly so I might add. There isn't a teenage alive that has common sense enough to be allowed to ride a street bike. Now a dirt bike, under adult supervision okay.

So did your Dad have to pay the speeding ticket? Think about it, and personal responsibility.
Ed

 

[Foxhound]

Personal responsibility is the whole point. You are responsible to make sure you don't allow someone to use your property to injure others. If I have the slightest doubt about someones level of responsibility they don't get to drive my vehicles, end of story. I would never be able to forgive myself if I let someone drive one of my vehicles and they ended up driving drunk, or reckless driving and killed someone! Same as if I let any lethal device into someone less than responsible. Any vehicle has the potential to be lethal. It should NEVER be taken lightly to hand someone the keys! Would you hand your teenager a pistol and let him walk out the front door with it? These new super bikes are way too much temptation for a teenager! Any parent who hands their kid the keys to one of these should just buy them a coffin right away.



Oops. I think I'll go sit in my corner now!

 

[aps45819]

Nonsense. Ever let your son or daughter drive your car? A buddy borrow your truck? Are you responsibe if they are ticketed? No. Why should the owner suffer loss of the vehicle for the actions of the rider? Makes no sense at all.

If they drive it past a red light camera, the registered owner will get the ticket. Why should that camera be different than the on on a cop's dash?

 

[edinsomd]

"If they drive it past a red light camera, the registered owner will get the ticket. Why should that camera be different than the on a cop's dash?"

That’s a civil offense, so a lower standard of evidence is employed. Does the state confiscate the vehicle for running the red light?

Remember the OJ debacle? He was found not guilty by the jury in the criminal trail because, in whatever passed for their minds, the state could not prove "beyond reasonable doubt". He was found guilty in the civil trial, however, because of the "preponderance of evidence".

In order to confiscate personal property, the state would have to apply the criminal standard, "beyond reasonable doubt", which would require a positive ID on the rider/owner. That would be just about impossible on a dashboard video cam.

Now, if the cops catch the runner, or can positively ID the operator through other means, all bets are off. Then the offender may lose his toy and driving privileges.
Ed

 

[aps45819]

In order to confiscate personal property, the state would have to apply the criminal standard, "beyond reasonable doubt", which would require a positive ID on the rider/owner. That would be just about impossible on a dashboard video cam.

Property is frequently siezed if it's "used in the commision of a crime". Wouldn't the dash camera provide enough evidence that the bike was used in the commission of a crime in order to sieze the property?

 

[RadioPatrol]

Nope I've never had one. But I have been one. My father took away my privileges for a month when I got a speeding ticket. He never would have allowed me to ride a motorcycle, I guarantee that!! Rightly so I might add. There isn't a teenage alive that has common sense enough to be allowed to ride a street bike. Now a dirt bike, under adult supervision okay.

was that with the Plymouth on RT 50 ?

 

[RadioPatrol]

Personal responsibility is the whole point. You are responsible to make sure you don't allow someone to use your property to injure others. If I have the slightest doubt about someones level of responsibility they don't get to drive my vehicles, end of story. I would never be able to forgive myself if I let someone drive one of my vehicles and they ended up driving drunk, or reckless driving and killed someone! Same as if I let any lethal device into someone less than responsible. Any vehicle has the potential to be lethal. It should NEVER be taken lightly to hand someone the keys! Would you hand your teenager a pistol and let him walk out the front door with it? These new super bikes are way too much temptation for a teenager! Any parent who hands their kid the keys to one of these should just buy them a coffin right away.



Oops. I think I'll go sit in my corner now!

I guess you would not want the PU back after an all nighter @ Mudchuckers ............