Zell Miller

[vraiblonde]

You can discredit this as the ramblings of a Kerry supporter

I plan to.

 

[rraley]

I'm sorry vraiblonde that you are going to...your party may be hurt because of it.

Now...let's look more into Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, who over his career has earned the nickname "Zigzag" for changing positions so easily...

Here's one quote from his speech...

For more than twenty years, on every one of the great issues of freedom and security, John Kerry has been more wrong, more weak and more wobbly than any other national figure

What did he say though three years ago about John Kerry?

My job tonight is an easy one: to present to you one of this nation's authentic heroes, one of this party's best-known and greatest leaders — and a good friend. He was once a lieutenant governor — but he didn't stay in that office 16 years, like someone else I know. It just took two years before the people of Massachusetts moved him into the United States Senate in 1984.

But wait, there's more...

In his 16 years in the Senate, John Kerry has fought against government waste and worked hard to bring some accountability to Washington. Early in his Senate career in 1986, John signed on to the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Deficit Reduction Bill, and he fought for balanced budgets before it was considered politically correct for Democrats to do so. John has worked to strengthen our military, reform public education, boost the economy and protect the environment.

Now, recall how angry Senator Miller gets when people call us occupiers in Iraq?
Here's what President Bush says about that...

On June 30th, the Coalition Provisional Authority will cease to exist and will not be replaced. The occupation will end and Iraqis will govern their own affairs.

I say it all — I say it all the time publicly. Yes, I wouldn't want to be occupied.

Now onto the litany of those weapons programs...

Listing all the weapon systems that Senator Kerry tried his best to shut down sounds like an auctioneer selling off our national security but Americans need to know the facts.

Well, Senator Kerry wasn't alone in calling to end these programs; Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney joined him...

I've always liked to remind everybody at the outset that we are already embarked upon a massive reduction in U.S. military capability, a 25-percent cut in force structure. We've got the lowest active force today that we've had since before Korea. I've eliminated 70,000 civilian jobs in the last 18 months out of the Pentagon. I've closed or terminated 81 programs. We're shutting down 300 military bases worldwide. It's a massive reduction already underway.

(9/29/91)

In testimony before the House Armed Services Committee, Cheney said, "What I recommended to the Committee was that we shut down the new F-14D production line, which will save almost $2.5 billion…

(2/5/91)

According to the Boston Globe, in 1990, "Defense Secretary Richard Cheney announced a cutback… of nearly 45 percent in the administration's B-2 Stealth bomber program, from 132 airplanes to 75…

(4/27/90)

This is just a list of some of the programs that I've recommended termination: the V-22 Osprey, the F-14D, the Army Helicopter Improvement Program, Phoenix missile, F-15E, the Apache helicopter, the M1 tank, et cetera.

(7/13/89)

Yeah, you gotta love Republican attacks this year!

 

[vraiblonde]

your party may be hurt because of it.

We'll see soon, won't we?

 

[rraley]

We'll see soon, won't we?

Yes, we will...vrai, what do you have to say about those Cheney statements and actions as Defense secretary? It seems as though Kerry and him agree on those weapons systems and their usefulness.

 

[vraiblonde]

what do you have to say about those Cheney statements and actions as Defense secretary?

I say Dick Cheney isn't running for President, that's what I say.

You seem to be upset that Miller gave such a pointed and brutal speech. Did you feel that way when John Kerry himself called the Bush Administration liars and crooks over an open mike? How about when he accused Bush of being AWOL, even AFTER the records came out proving Bush was, in fact, at his duty station? How about when he sat in the audience and applauded Whoopie Goldberg making obscene jokes about Bush and Cheney?

Were you upset then?

 

[rraley]

I say Dick Cheney isn't running for President, that's what I say.

You seem to be upset that Miller gave such a pointed and brutal speech. Did you feel that way when John Kerry himself called the Bush Administration liars and crooks over an open mike? How about when he accused Bush of being AWOL, even AFTER the records came out proving Bush was, in fact, at his duty station? How about when he sat in the audience and applauded Whoopie Goldberg making obscene jokes about Bush and Cheney?

Were you upset then?

First of all the whole "I say Dick Cheney isn't running for president" argument to be weak and avoiding the question. He is a major player in the Bush Administration and is one of the president's closest advisers. Recall, in 2000, he was picked because it was thought that Bush didn't have enough foreign policy/defense experience to be an effective leader. Cheney's judgement has been touted throughout on the stump by President Bush; but wouldn't this prove to be poor judgement on his part? (I mean if Kerry has bad judgement because of these, then doesn't Cheney as well? Or am I crazy?). Furthermore, while VP Cheney is not running for office, President Bush has such a high opinion of him that when asked about the contrast between Cheney and Edwards, he said "VP Cheney can be president." Well, seeing as VP Cheney and Senator Kerry have the same position on these systems, wouldn't John Kerry be "fit" to be President and couldn't he be president, just like VP Cheney?

Then the whole, I'm gonna take out your dirty laundry to avoid answering the question even more and divert the attention to you. I disagree with what Kerry had to say about the Bush Administration being crooks and liars, but you know what? That was during a private conversation and well, politicians are much nastier in private than they are in public. I only wish that I could be a fly on the wall when Bush and Cheney sit down together with Karl Rove to discuss those panzy, communist "girlie-men," the rest of us call Democrats. As for the AWOL accusation, I myself have never heard Kerry himself say that, but I will believe you. I didn't like that either, especially seeing as it wasn't necessarily true, but you know what, we have this GOP group that is attacking John Kerry's war record and calling into question the validity of all war hero's medals. There's 6 in yours; half a dozen in mine.

As for the obscene jokes, I don't have a problem with that. Whoopi is a comedian, they make jokes. You ever watch Jay Leno at night? I mean, come on, vraiblonde. I honestly think that hearing "Lick Bush and Dick in 2004" or "Bush + Dick = We're screwed" is funny. It's a pun; it's humorous; lighten up. Dear lord, whenever someone talks about John Kerry walking into a bar and the server asks him why the long face, don't you laugh? I sure do. It's political comedy. So there just isn't even an issue there.

 

[SmallTown]

First of all the whole "I say Dick Cheney isn't running for president" argument to be weak and avoiding the question. He is a major player in the Bush Administration and is one of the president's closest advisers.

As sad as it may be, I have to agree with rraley on this one. When I read vrai's post I just shook my head. Yet another example of why "That's Different" should be the motto for the republican party. Because whenever a republican whines about something a democrat does, then a democrat turns it back on them it is always the same response "That's Different". Congrats to vrai for upholding the motto.

 

[Penn]

Vrai, as much as we saw the speeches last night, as much as we saw the commentaries this afternoon, as much as we heard from both conservatives and liberals what these all meant, there will always be 's among us in this great nation who will only see one side of the picture: Theirs.

John Kerry's voting record means nothing. It's just that obvious!

BTW, Gen. Tommy Franks gave a heck of a speech tonight as well.

No matter how much Chris Matthews or Andrea Mitchell try to "spin it",
Zell Miller told us of his pain and anger of what he's seen the Democratic Party become.

 

[SmallTown]

as much as we heard from both conservatives and liberals what these all meant, there will always be 's among us in this great nation who will only see one side of the picture: Theirs

You say that like it is a bad thing. Which is odd because this is exactly how EVERY single person on this board (and everywhere actually) thinks.

 

[vraiblonde]

Congrats to vrai for upholding the motto.

I'm not really up to speed with Cheney's voting record when he was in the House - I should take a look. And the remarks Raley quoted were made 15 years ago. So maybe Cheney changed his mind? (Oh, the HORROR!!) Or maybe the situation changed and he changed with it?

I really don't know. But what I DO know is that Bush has been a pretty good President, except for those liberal brain farts he gets occasionally. And I can't complain about Cheney's job performance these past 4 years, either. Talk about lost jobs and economic woes all you want - my income and the income of my husband has gone up dramatically in the last 4 years. So I'm sticking with what's working for me.

The Democratic party as we know it is done. Finito. Now maybe ya'll can get back to normal, the way you were before Willie Jeff brought his band of nasties into our political arena. Because you can talk about Zell Miller all you want, but his fiery speech doesn't hold a candle to James Carville and Co. "Drag a $100 bill through a trailer park", indeed.

 

[SmallTown]

So maybe Cheney changed his mind? (Oh, the HORROR!!)

Hey, you forgot "That's Different!"

Considering the many threads where users here cream their shorts talking about kerry changing his mind on an issue

 

[jlabsher]

Hey, you forgot "That's Different!"

Considering the many threads where users here cream their shorts talking about kerry changing his mind on an issue

 

[SmallTown]

Talk about lost jobs and economic woes all you want - my income and the income of my husband has gone up dramatically in the last 4 years. So I'm sticking with what's working for me.

Interesting. Whenever negative issues with the economy or budget are brought up on here, it's always "Congress did it!"

Now someone feels there's a positive side, and it is suddenly all about the president.

Plus, typical republican ideas. "If it works for me, it must be that way for everybody!" Typical naive gesture from the republicans, and exactly why many people say republicans are not in touch with the American people.

But hey, going along those same lines, you shouldn't care about Kerry's voting record on certain defense issues. Going by your logic, as long as you don't work on those projects you will see no negative impact, thus it wouldn't matter if they stay or if they go.

 

[SamSpade]

I was listening to a caller yesterday on Hannity, and then later on, to Alan Colmes on Hannity and Colmes, and now, to this board. And I'm struck by one, consistent, theme - in fact, you have to believe that somewhere, someone posted the "Zell Miller" talking points, and every Democrat has read them.

No one has made the tiniest effort to *refute* a single word he said. Instead, as in the Swift Vets controversy, they *immediately* attack the person instead.

That's right - they attack Zell himself. He was good enough to be keynote speaker 12 years ago, and apparently good enough to speak for Kerry in the past. But that's all gone now. What he SAID the other night is irrelevant; what matters now is, HE must be discredited. He's inconsistent, he's a turncoat, he's shrill.

But no one is sayin - he's *wrong*.

Same thing with the Swifties. Shut them down, call them liars, malcontents, threaten bookstores and TV stations. Change your story, change it again, and repeat the accusations against the Swifties - they weren't "serving" under Kerry (attack their reliability as a witness) they didn't serve on the same boat (again, same thing). The whole message is - THEY are lyiing, and we're outraged and won't stand for it.

Dear God, we've had a few YEARS of top Democrats calling Bush a traitor, a Hitler, a fascist. We've had some saying he concocted the whole war in Texas strictly for political gain. That he KNEW about 9/11 before it happened, and I'm not talking Michael Moore. When Whoopi made her remarks, Kerry commented that the remarks were among the mainstream of American thought. Consent. Approval.

And NOW - Zell Miller has the brass to call into account John Kerry's *RECORD* in the Senate - and THAT'S *shrill*? Are we supposed to vote for the guy based on four month's of heroism 35 years ago, and ignore his entire life of public service?

He's *savaged* Bush all through the primaries. Dear God, this morning, Edwards is bringing up Dick Cheney's five deferments from service in Vietnam. If Vietnam should be off limits. WHY DO THEY KEEP BRINGING IT UP?

 

[SamSpade]

Hey, you forgot "That's Different!"

Considering the many threads where users here cream their shorts talking about kerry changing his mind on an issue

It's not that he changes his mind; it would be different if we were to notice a difference over a few years. With Kerry, it's *days*, and always at politically opportune moments.

He's flip-flopped on the Palestinian security barrier, depending on whom he's addressing. He has changed his mind BACK AND FORTH on the gay marriage thing, depending on whom he is addressing. He was FOR the Missouri ban on same-sex marriage only four weeks ago. Where is he now? I honestly cannot tell what he believes, because that is how he operates.

I listened to a pundit say something yesterday that few Senators get elected President. I think I know why. They live in a world where being solid on an issue is not as politically astute as being compromising and pliable. We can't have that in a chief executive. That's why governors more often become President.

 

[ylexot]

I'm sorry vraiblonde that you are going to...your party may be hurt because of it.

Now...let's look more into Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, who over his career has earned the nickname "Zigzag" for changing positions so easily...

Here's one quote from his speech...

What did he say though three years ago about John Kerry?

Actually, Colmes asked him about that last night. Zell said that he was wrong then. He was given Kerry's bio and told to introduce him. He didn't actually research Kerry's record.

Oh, and I don't think he got the nickname "Zigzag" because he changes positions easily. Name a position he's changed "easily".

 

[vraiblonde]

Interesting. Whenever negative issues with the economy or budget are brought up on here, it's always "Congress did it!"

Now someone feels there's a positive side, and it is suddenly all about the president.

Hey, you all are the ones who kept saying that the economy is Bush's "fault". Now someone feels there's a positive side, and it is suddenly all about Congress.

 

[SmallTown]

Hey, you all are the ones who kept saying that the economy is Bush's "fault". Now someone feels there's a positive side, and it is suddenly all about Congress.

actually, I think the economy still stinks overall

 

[Steve]

actually, I think the economy still stinks overall

I still can't understand how the economy stinks overall. My income is the best its ever been, our company is growing, interest rates are low, gas prices are declining, home values are increasing, and I see overweight people crowding the checkout lines at Wal-Mart all the time!

Am I missing something because I'm a Republican, therefore oblivious to the "real" American plight? Or is my economic condition a result of hard work and perserverence as opposed to whining and seeking handouts? I am not rich, you best believe that, but I don't want for anything either. Are the economic viewpoints of some perhaps tied to their own greed and desires? I'd love to buy a vacation condo in Hawaii, but I can't afford that now. Does that mean the economy sucks?

 

[vraiblonde]

actually, I think the economy still stinks overall

Good for you, Special K.

The Democrats set the tone, the agenda AND the talking points. Now ya'll are mad because it's backfiring on you.

Ha ha.

From a purely professional standpoint, Kerry's campaign managers suck. He's got two handlers (can't remember their names) that get trotted out regularly and they are possibly the worst marketing people I've ever seen in my life. Hannity was taking this one guy apart so bad last night I could hardly bear to watch. I had a mental picture of PR people all over America screaming at the TV, "Why are you just sitting there??!! Say this!!"

Then Colmes gets ahold of him and literally had to walk him through everything he was supposed to say about his candidate. The guy would go "Dur" and Colmes would say, "Isn't it true that John Kerry blah blah blah?" And the guy would go "Dur" again, and Colmes would pull out another talking point. It was embarrassing.

Chris Matthews last night said that Karl Rove is so good at his job - where's the Democrats' Rove? And the answer was, there isn't one. Kerry is apparently running his own campaign and shrugging off his advisors. This tells me one of three things:

1. That Kerry is stupid.

2. That he is a micromanager who won't let people do their jobs because HE wants to do everything. This is bad news if he wants to be a leader because he won't delegate to the experts. No one person can be on top of all that's going on in the world and, if they try, they'll fail miserably.

Or 3. That Kerry doesn't trust his advisors, which is the kiss of death for a political candidate. If you surround yourself with people you don't trust, what does that say about you?

Or possibly a combination of all three. :shrug: