Archaeologists, scholars dispute Jesus documentary

[Dondi]

Are you sure you want to use Job? The tale about how, God and Satan decide to play a game with the lives of Job and his family. Satan bets that Job will curse God to his face if Job's life is made unpleasant enough. So God or Satan,(Its never specificaly stated) kills Job's family and sends various torments upon him. Although Job curses the day he was born and says some nasty (and true based on the verses in the Bible) things about God, he doesn't curse God (as he should have), so he is rewarded with a new, even better, family. Another happy ending after living 140 years.

Yep. It's a tug-of-war. "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the Name of the Lord."

Job knew better than to blame God for something Satan did. God allowed it to happen, but Satan is the one who instigated the actually destruction. God is interested in our character and our faithfulness in trusting Him, even in times of tragedy and heartache. The only thing that is going to last is your soul. God is looking for a particular kind of people who will look beyond their immediate circumstance and into the long-term development of an eternal soul. What kind of person was Job when he came out of all that? He was found faithful and God rewarded him for it. "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." - Hebrews 11:6

Since you brought Job up, once again, who is the Evil one? Satan (the Trickster, who could be expected to Torment Job, he is the Devil) or God?

How else can God test us to see if we will be faithful if He doesn't set up conditions to try our faith?

I understand how Job could be used as an example of Free will, but it also should make you wonder what kind of God would purposely inflict this cruelity for a wager... hmm and doesnt that then beg a question about whether gambling is a sin?

God isn't gambling with Satan over Job's soul. God already knew Job was blameless and faithful. He set out to show Satan He was right.

 

[Tonio]

I actually think it’s a moot point and is only used to drive doubt into the minds of believers. What difference does it make in all reality?

Because there are believers who seek to use public schools to push the literal reading of Genesis on MY children.

You said there is no certainty about anything in life. But there is certainty about life. We are here. I accept that we are not here just by some random chemical events. To me, life (and everyone should really look at that word deeply) feels spiritual. I have no idea how to explain that. I just feel it.

I think "random chemical events" misses the point, because in many ways each of us makes our own meaning for our lives. How our lives were created is not as important as what we do with our lives. And yes, finding that meaning is a spiritual process.

Billions of people over the millennia are either wrong or they are right.

Why does it have to be like that? If there is a divine, maybe each of us perceives the divine in a different way. If so, I see nothing wrong with that. I make a distinction between "divine" and "deity," because in my view the divine wouldn't have to be a conscious entity or a supreme being. If I had never been exposed to any organized religions, I would have never thought of the idea of a supreme being.

Religions get into these endless disputes over the form or nature of deity. They threaten each other with eternity in hell for having the "wrong" belief about deity, or even for worshipping the same deity in the "wrong" way. I see those disputes as not only pointless but poisonous. I mentioned Joseph Campbell earlier in this thread - his point was that deities and myths are really symbols, and that believing in a god for the god's sake is like going into a restaurant and eating the menu. In other words, the important thing is not the symbol but the deeper meaning behind it. What someone believes is not important - the important thing is what the person does with that belief, how the person uses that belief to improve his or her life.

 

[Midnightrider]

Would you recognize a miracle if you saw one ? Does someone have to be raised from the dead, be cured of an incurable sickness ?

I saw David Blaine levitate, and put his hand inside someone and remove their sickness- person had completely healed by the time blaine wiped the blood away....

 

[Midnightrider]

Hey at least my God's tomb is Empty.

Mohomad is still in his ....... never heard of any miracles from Allah ?

Budda ........ Dead

you forgot the and the "nah nee nah nee boo boo"

 

[PsyOps]

Because there are believers who seek to use public schools to push the literal reading of Genesis on MY children.

I think equally many (not necessarily including me) feel they are having evolution forced down their kid's throats as fact when it is still considered a theory. It's important to have all these things presented in an educational way so our kids can decide for themselves. But you have the problem of teachers being individuals and having beliefs that will interfere in their ability to teach the information and not preach it.

I think "random chemical events" misses the point, because in many ways each of us makes our own meaning for our lives. How our lives were created is not as important as what we do with our lives. And yes, finding that meaning is a spiritual process.

I completely agree with this.

Why does it have to be like that? If there is a divine, maybe each of us perceives the divine in a different way. If so, I see nothing wrong with that. I make a distinction between "divine" and "deity," because in my view the divine wouldn't have to be a conscious entity or a supreme being. If I had never been exposed to any organized religions, I would have never thought of the idea of a supreme being.

It doesn't have to be like this. It just is. Either there is a God or there isn't. Can so many be so wrong? I'm quite sure, even within each faith, each person has their own perspective on who their God is. Where I get all spun up is when folks from my faith tell me if you don't believe this or that you wont go to heaven. Ridiculous! You don't define these rules for heaven, God does. God will decide. But the discussion about divine v. deity is interesting. I think where those that believe in a deity are convinced that there had to be a conscious being that created our universe. That it didn’t just materialize out of nowhere. Believing in a divine (as I understand you) would require that perhaps there is a spiritual realm but our universe was not created but just materialized. Just as I don’t claim to understand God’s role in creation I could never claim to understand how a universe can just materialize out of nothing.

Religions get into these endless disputes over the form or nature of deity. They threaten each other with eternity in hell for having the "wrong" belief about deity, or even for worshipping the same deity in the "wrong" way. I see those disputes as not only pointless but poisonous. I mentioned Joseph Campbell earlier in this thread - his point was that deities and myths are really symbols, and that believing in a god for the god's sake is like going into a restaurant and eating the menu. In other words, the important thing is not the symbol but the deeper meaning behind it. What someone believes is not important - the important thing is what the person does with that belief, how the person uses that belief to improve his or her life.

Again, only God makes the decision about heaven and hell. I’m not even sure I understand why God created the two. God put all the information we need on this earth to help us make that decision. It’s really quite simple… You either chose to accept it or not. Even when you do accept it, you go through a lifetime of doubt and questions and wondering. Can’t explain that either except to say faith keeps you coming back. But believing in God is not a physical thing. Too many people are reaching for something physical; something they can grasp with the senses that same God gave them, yet God set us outside of that place to force us to rely on the other sense we have: FAITH. And actually I disagree that it’s not what you believe but what you do with it. First it’s what you believe then living within that belief. They are both intertwined. In the sense of being a Christian it’s really not enough to just say you believe in Christ and then go willy-nilly through life. The deep-rooted belief will compel you to change your life and live that life your faith dictates. And it’s not some magical transformation either. It’s a growing process that for many, like me (who is a slow learner in this regard), takes decades to get.

 

[Tonio]

It doesn't have to be like this. It just is. Either there is a God or there isn't. Can so many be so wrong?

Are you using "God" to refer to the divine in general? Or are you using the word to refer specifically to the Abrahamic God? In our language and culture, it's an unfortunate reality that "God" has almost no meaning other than the Abrahamic God. I say it's unfortunate because it handicaps the conversation in favor of Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions. The only way to have conversations like this is to reserve judgment on the truthfulness of all religions' claims.

Where I get all spun up is when folks from my faith tell me if you don't believe this or that you wont go to heaven. Ridiculous! You don't define these rules for heaven, God does. God will decide.

That's a valid criticism to make within the Christian framework, and I appreciate you saying that. What I'm saying is that it isn't necessary to have any such framework in the first place. There is no reason to treat any religion's teachings about deity as incontrovertible facts, particularly teachings that conflict with teachings from other religions. I become frustrated when I see debates on religion devolve into Christianity versus atheism, as if those were the only two choices.

From my perspective, I see thousands of religions making competing claims about deity and the afterlife. My point is not about the lack of proof for those claims, but that all religions are on an equal footing as to that proof. For all I know, the divine may consist of the Olympian gods, or it may consist of tree spirits or animal spirits. I think that says a lot about Campbell's idea of treating those claims as references to certain ideas about human existence. If there is merit in contemplating (as opposed to believing in) something greater than one's self, it doesn't have to be found in the teachings of any particular religion. It could be the awe and wonder found in the universe itself, as Einstein and Sagan often talked about.

 

[Penn]

Originally Posted by Nucklesack
Are you sure you want to use Job? The tale about how, God and Satan decide to play a game with the lives of Job and his family. Satan bets that Job will curse God to his face if Job's life is made unpleasant enough. So God or Satan,(Its never specificaly stated) kills Job's family and sends various torments upon him. Although Job curses the day he was born and says some nasty (and true based on the verses in the Bible) things about God, he doesn't curse God (as he should have), so he is rewarded with a new, even better, family. Another happy ending after living 140 years.

A couple of years back, I was in a class at my church, called Disciple, where we reviewed every book in the Bible.

Job was one of them.

The way we saw it was - satan wanted to see if he could turn a faithful, God-loving, righteous man - like Job, against God, and force him to give up all his beliefs, concerning his Creator.

He came to God and laid out his plan, and told God he wanted to test one of His followers.

IT IS unclear why God allowed satan to do what he did to Job. We'll never know. Maybe God got pizzed at satan and - to Himself - said; "All right you SOB(my paraphrasing) go ahead and do your worst(within limits), and see if this man can be shaken enough to give me up, and follow you!"

Satan put Job through some terrible trials as you already know; killed members of his family, set disease upon him, destroyed livestock, his fields, etc.

Yes, Job did question his faith in God, questioned why the Lord allowed things to happen to him. Unreasonable? I don't think so.

Wouldn't you?

But, ultimately his faith held true, after a long bout of evil doings against him.

He came to reconcile with what had befell him; and he regained his trust, his faith, and was rewarded by God.

He - Job - defeated satan! After all he was subjected to!

More than that, I cannot say, because as others have said, I got a feeling it's way above my humble, mortal, and human understanding to fathom.

 

[wxtornado]

...God put all the information we need on this earth to help us make that decision. It’s really quite simple… You either chose to accept it or not.....

Actually, it's not quite that simple. Your God had the foreknowledge that I wouldn't believe, way before I was born. And I certainly can't change anything that he already knows, now could I?

 

[Penn]

Actually, it's not quite that simple. Your God had the foreknowledge that I wouldn't believe, way before I was born. And I certainly can't change anything that he already knows, now could I?

We have touched on this concept before in the Religion thread. There are different faiths that claim - that because God knows what you are going to do since before you were born, before you say something, you have no choice.

Other faiths tell us that while He may know what the future holds for you, He cannot hold you back from your option of excercising Free Will.

Commonly known as going with the grain, or going against it.

 

[PsyOps]

Actually, it's not quite that simple. Your God had the foreknowledge that I wouldn't believe, way before I was born. And I certainly can't change anything that he already knows, now could I?

Okay.

 

[Tonio]

I might appreciate the story of Job more if was treated as a allegory for enduring the travails of life. This would require God and Satan to be simply characters created for narrative purpose. Taking the story literally, I would be deeply outraged at anyone trying to manipulate me or my life like that, no matter what the purpose. And even if the point was to test Job's loyalty, I say that no one is automatically entitled to loyalty. Loyalty has to be earned, even a child's loyalty for a parent.

 

[Penn]

Your God had the foreknowledge that I wouldn't believe, way before I was born.

One more thing: How did you arrive at that belief? Did He tell you that, or is it something you just came up with, all on your own?

From what I understand, we were all given the choice, long before we were born.

Let's look at it from another perspective: You are approaching a fork in the road, up ahead. You don't yet see it, but you'll be there in a few minutes.

Do you know which turn you will take?

 

[Toxick]

One more thing: How did you arrive at that belief? Did He tell you that, or is it something you just came up with, all on your own?

It stems from the claim that God is omniscient. If He knows everything, then He knows what everyone will ever do, including whether they believe in Him or not.

If God already knows, that implies that everything is preordained.

If everything is preordained, then free-will cannot exist.

 

[Penn]

It stems from the claim that God is omniscient. If He knows everything, then He knows what everyone will ever do, including whether they believe in Him or not.

If God already knows, that implies that everything is preordained.

If everything is preordained, then free-will cannot exist.

But we know that is not the case; at least as far as Free Will goes. You do have that choice, because He gave to the first persons on this earth - Adam and Eve.

He also gave it to His angels while they were up in Heaven. We believe that is why, or should I say how - satan(lucifer) rebelled.

He had that choice to make, and he made it, no?

 

[Toxick]

But we know that is not the case; at least as far as Free Will goes. You do have that choice,

I do not claim to know:

1) The mind of God
2) The nature of time/space
3) Omniscience or what it entails.


Given what I do know, tornado's argument against the usage of the term free will is valid.

But, with the addition of my three bullet items above, it doesn't affect my faith significantly. I find these types of arguments to be very similar in nature to the paradoxes created by asking "If God is omnipotent, can He make a rock that He cannot lift."

I can't answer them, and I don't think they're really worth thinking about. Let the philosophers hash it out.

 

[PsyOps]

Actually, it's not quite that simple. Your God had the foreknowledge that I wouldn't believe, way before I was born. And I certainly can't change anything that he already knows, now could I?

Because God knew it would happen beforehand, does that mean he pulled the strings? And in reality, from your standpoint, you don't believe, so why would you even assume in anything related to something you don't believe?

 

[wxtornado]

There are different faiths that claim - that because God knows what you are going to do since before you were born, before you say something, you have no choice.

Other faiths tell us that while He may know what the future holds for you, He cannot hold you back from your option of excercising Free Will.

According to the belief system, there is a specific plan in place (leading to Armageddon). The plan requires specific acts to occur in order for it to unfold. It has been foreseen, therefore every move is known. Each play is already a done deal. If you wish to do something different from what has been ordained, you cannot. Do something right now. Did you do it? God saw that you would do that infinitely back in time. You have no ability to make God's foreknowledge wrong.

You were not even born when he saw you do it.

Free will in the Christian worldview is an illusion.

 

[wxtornado]

Because God knew it would happen beforehand, does that mean he pulled the strings? And in reality, from your standpoint, you don't believe, so why would you even assume in anything related to something you don't believe?

Yes, it does because God will know every choice we can make, and will make, and thus we are committed to never making God wrong -- we do not have the power to make a choice God can't already know we will make. So we have the illusion of free will, but nothing more in the theistic worldview.

Does atheism support free will? Yes-- because in atheism there is no God to know what our choices will be. We are free to make choices unencumbered by a being who knows what we will do in all and any event.

 

[PsyOps]

Yes, it does because God will know every choice we can make, and will make, and thus we are committed to never making God wrong -- we do not have the power to make a choice God can't already know we will make. So we have the illusion of free will, but nothing more in the theistic worldview.

Does atheism support free will? Yes-- because in atheism there is no God to know what our choices will be. We are free to make choices unencumbered by a being who knows what we will do in all and any event.

Don’t you think if God predetermined everything he would have made us all believe in him?

 

[Penn]

Don’t you think if God predetermined everything he would have made us all believe in him?

Very Good!

Reverse psychology on wxtornado's idea! If God predetermines everything , then perhaps we all started from a fresh slate, ie., we are the children of God, He is our Creator and our Lord.

So, to take it a step further, could it be that those who do not believe in God are simply deluding themselves with their own act of Free Will, which they say cannot exist?