Archaeologists, scholars dispute Jesus documentary

[2ndAmendment]

Omniscience has nothing to do with pre-ordination. Just because I know something is going to happen doesn't mean I caused it to happen. Same thing with God and you. You know that your kid is getting bad grades and not studying, and you grouse and prod to no avail. You know the kid is going to fail, but you didn't cause the kid to fail. The kid did it on his own. The kid's free will; the kid chose not to study. God, our Father, knows we are not choosing His way. He knows we are failing. He didn't cause our failure.

But I could be wrong. I don't know the mind of God. I must admit that sometimes I wonder what He is doing, but its His creation. He makes the rules.

wxtornado is right that God has created even the wicked for the day of evil. Bible says so.

Proverbs 16:1-6

1The plans of the heart belong to man,
But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
2All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight,
But the LORD weighs the motives.
3Commit your works to the LORD
And your plans will be established.
4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
5Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD;
Assuredly, he will not be unpunished.
6By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for,
And by the fear of the LORD one keeps away from evil.

Without those to test our faith where would the faith be? The Bible also says that demons dwell among us, so, who knows, maybe someone in this thread is one; maybe more. Hold tight those that believe.

Non-believers, you may be just a non-believer for a time, so there is hope until the day of death.

 

[brendar buhl]

Omniscience has nothing to do with pre-ordination. Just because I know something is going to happen doesn't mean I caused it to happen...But I could be wrong. I don't know the mind of God. I must admit that sometimes I wonder what He is doing, but its His creation. He makes the rules.
wxtornado is right that God has created even the wicked for the day of evil. Bible says so...

People are O.K. with Omniscience (all knowing) God. But when the same God that is Omniscient is also Omnipotent (all powerful)? That's where the problem lies. Yeah, my kids get crappy grades sometimes, and I know that my kids are going to get crappy grades sometimes, and I know why they get crappy grades. But if I had the power to change them, what would I do?
Granted, this is a human perspective, but I often think about how I would change the nuances of my children’s behavior if I could. But, if I did that, then they would cease to be who they are. And at this point I appreciate who they are and don’t really want to be responsible for changing that too much. I mean, I could make my daughter much more concerned about her grades than she is, but then what if that came at the sacrifice of her great sense of humor? Would I want to give that up? No.


The problem is (encapsulated here) that we can understand accepting minor flaws in people. But we can not understand how the sacrifice of Jesus covers the sin of the liar as well as it covers the sin of the rapist.

P.S. 2A, I appreciate your admission that you don't know the mind of God, seriously, more Christians need to start-off their conversations with that idea.

 

[2ndAmendment]

People are O.K. with Omniscience (all knowing) God. But when the same God that is Omniscient is also Omnipotent (all powerful)? That's where the problem lies. Yeah, my kids get crappy grades sometimes, and I know that my kids are going to get crappy grades sometimes, and I know why they get crappy grades. But if I had the power to change them, what would I do?
Granted, this is a human perspective, but I often think about how I would change the nuances of my children’s behavior if I could. But, if I did that, then they would cease to be who they are. And at this point I appreciate who they are and don’t really want to be responsible for changing that too much. I mean, I could make my daughter much more concerned about her grades than she is, but then what if that came at the sacrifice of her great sense of humor? Would I want to give that up? No.

I think that is where God comes from too. He knows what you are going to do. He could change you. He chooses to let you be you.

I also think it is because He loves us and wants us to love Him. What is love if it is not freely given? I think nothing.

The problem is (encapsulated here) that we can understand accepting minor flaws in people. But we can not understand how the sacrifice of Jesus covers the sin of the liar as well as it covers the sin of the rapist.

I'm glad He forgives all sin. I look back on my life and see a mess.

P.S. 2A, I appreciate your admission that you don't know the mind of God, seriously, more Christians need to start-off their conversations with that idea.

Thanks. Took God a long time to let me convince me of that.

 

[RadioPatrol]

Gee I wonder ..........

you forgot the and the "nah nee nah nee boo boo"

I think I am Being mocked here .............

 

[RadioPatrol]

Amen ..........

SNIP

But I could be wrong. I don't know the mind of God. I must admit that sometimes I wonder what He is doing, but its His creation. He makes the rules.

Well Put, there is no way a fallen sinner like me could ever know the mind of God.

Everything comes in God's Time and by His will .......

not my preconceived notions of what I think I deserve or in my Worldly Desires .....

 

[Penn]

I think that is where God comes from too. He knows what you are going to do. He could change you. He chooses to let you be you.

I also think it is because He loves us and wants us to love Him. What is love if it is not freely given? I think nothing.

After all I've read here in this thread, and even some of the posts I have made, trying to explain how I feel about pre-ordainment or Omniscience, I very much like this quote as an explanation.

 

[PsyOps]

So, to take it a step further, could it be that those who do not believe in God are simply deluding themselves with their own act of Free Will, which they say cannot exist?

To take it step further, we already know we have free will whether you believe or not. So the argument of "The Puppetmaster" (if you will) doesn't fit. So what you are left with either believing or not believing.

 

[2ndAmendment]

... So what you are left with either believing or not believing.

That is the ultimate decision of life. Do you believe God and follow His way or do you not? Beyond that, all other questions pale.

This line is from a movie, but it is true. "The biggest lie satan ever told is that he is not real." Maybe not an exact quote, but close. No satan, no sin, no worries. Satan, sin, got to answer to God. There really is no in between.

 

[wxtornado]

Omniscience has nothing to do with pre-ordination. Just because I know something is going to happen doesn't mean I caused it to happen. Same thing with God and you. You know that your kid is getting bad grades and not studying, and you grouse and prod to no avail. You know the kid is going to fail, but you didn't cause the kid to fail. The kid did it on his own. The kid's free will; the kid chose not to study. God, our Father, knows we are not choosing His way. He knows we are failing. He didn't cause our failure.

This is a bad analogy because you *don't* know for certain if your kid will fail. The messy God you theists assert knows for *certian* I wouldn't believe in him, and created me anyway, just to damn me to eternal hell.

 

[Penn]

This is a bad analogy because you *don't* know for certain if your kid will fail. The messy God you theists assert knows for *certian* I wouldn't believe in him, and created me anyway, just to damn me to eternal hell.

No, that is your take on it, and not at all the way it is told in the Bible.

You are not damned to Hell, in the beginning, as you put it.

You were given a choice to make, or shall I say take; you, as an individual chose to follow the path where you felt that it was the one that suited you, and the one you sought to pursue.

Only you are responsible for that; blame cannot be placed on anyone but yourself.

 

[2ndAmendment]

This is a bad analogy because you *don't* know for certain if your kid will fail. The messy God you theists assert knows for *certian* I wouldn't believe in him, and created me anyway, just to damn me to eternal hell.

Would and wouldn't assert choice and will.

wx, there is, unless you are one of satan's own, a true demon, or satan himself, time to change your heart. I hope the Holy Spirit finds a way to reach you.

 

[PAgirl76]

I think it does come down to "free will". We choose our eternal destiny. We either accept Christ and have eternal life or we reject him and have eternal damnation. In the book of Joshua it says, choose you THIS day in whom you will serve. When we are dead it is too late to make that choice. God is awesome and He is a strong tower. He is just amazing and if only people would be open to accept His love and just to feel His touch, they would never be the same.

 

[Penn]

Would and wouldn't assert choice and will.

wx, there is, unless you are one of satan's own, a true demon, or satan himself, time to change your heart. I hope the Holy Spirit finds a way to reach you.

I spent some 20+ ignoring a Higher Authority, a God, if you will - as I put it back then.

I went on, blissfully ignorant, of the world around me; only taking what it offered me, and giving back what I felt was necessary. What did God, or Jesus Christ mean to me?

Someone - out there - whom I kind of knew had existed - but whom I couldn't touch, or connect with. And so, I let it go on that way, for years.

Through a fellow believer, I was drawn back to church, one Sunday morning; where I had the honor - to listen to a lady pastor, base her whole service on John 3:16.

I sat there, in the pew, listening. About halfway through her sermon, I discovered tears running down my cheeks - not in mourning - mind you, but in joy - that I had found myself at home again.

How it happened, I don't know, it just did.

I'm back! I said to myself. I'm with you Father - once more. Please forgive my absence.

As goofy as it sounds, that too was a part of her sermon: There is the feeling out there among some folks, that God sometimes walks away from you.

She assured us that it was not the case; it is you who walks away from God.

But, He is always there to welcome us back, when we choose to seek Him again. (THAT'S when the tears started flowing!)

Bottom Line: It's never too late to get to know your Savior!

 

[PAgirl76]

I spent some 20+ ignoring a Higher Authority, a God, if you will - as I put it back then.

I went on, blissfully ignorant, of the world around me; only taking what it offered me, and giving back what I felt was necessary. What did God, or Jesus Christ mean to me?

Someone - out there - whom I kind of knew had existed - but whom I couldn't touch, or connect with. And so, I let it go on that way, for years.

Through a fellow believer, I was drawn back to church, one Sunday morning; where I had the honor - to listen to a lady pastor, base her whole service on John 3:16.

I sat there, in the pew, listening. About halfway through her sermon, I discovered tears running down my cheeks - not in mourning - mind you, but in joy - that I had found myself at home again.

How it happened, I don't know, it just did.

I'm back! I said to myself. I'm with you Father - once more. Please forgive my absence.

As goofy as it sounds, that too was a part of her sermon: There is the feeling out there among some folks, that God sometimes walks away from you.

She assured us that it was not the case; it is you who walks away from God.

But, He is always there to welcome us back, when we choose to seek Him again. (THAT'S when the tears started flowing!)

Bottom Line: It's never too late to get to know your Savior!

That is so true. God will always take us back even when we are the one's who walked away. I had walked away from the Lord at a very low point in my life and never felt so empty until I was lead back and when I went back I thought God why or how did I ever make it through with out you only to realize that He had never left me. Thanks for sharing that, it blessed me tonight

 

[Midnightrider]

This line is from a movie, but it is true. "The biggest lie satan ever told is that he is not real." Maybe not an exact quote, but close. No satan, no sin, no worries. Satan, sin, got to answer to God. There really is no in between.

Thats a really interesting quote, but did you remember it was from The Crucible, the play/movie about the salom witch trials? The person who speaks it is the church rep/magistrate who was condeming the people to death. He says that after numerous god fearing people were put to death for refusing to confess that they had "walked with the devil".

just interesting that the qoute came from somone who was killing in the name of god and when confronted about his mistake utters those words trying to raise himself above reproach.

 

[wxtornado]

You were given a choice to make, or shall I say take; you, as an individual chose to follow the path where you felt that it was the one that suited you, and the one you sought to pursue.

Only you are responsible for that; blame cannot be placed on anyone but yourself.

You fail to see that whatever I "choose", it's still God's ultimate plan. And it still needs to come out a certain way. Furthermore, he already knows how the game will be played out, and he does so infinitely in the past. Frankly, I don't know how to choose a path with "free will" when which path I will choose has already happened.

Again, it's an illusion of free will. I know that rankles some people, but it cannot be helped - that is what your worldview illustrates. And even the Bible supports it. Off the top of my head I can cite five places:

1. Where God hardens Pharoah's heart
2. Where Jesus specifically tells Caesar he gets his power from a higher authority (the analogy being God is interfacing with humans and giving them whatever it is they need to accomplish his goals)
3. Judas having no choice but to betray Jesus
4. Peter having no choice but to deny Jesus 3 times
5. Armageddon as told in Revelations.

So not only does the worldview force one into this conclusion, the very blueprint that defines the entire worldview (the bible) cites examples of it!

That's pretty conclusive, wouldn't you say?

 

[wxtornado]

wx, there is, unless you are one of satan's own, a true demon, or satan himself, time to change your heart. I hope the Holy Spirit finds a way to reach you.

Obviously, God isn't interested in me "changing my heart". If he was, he wouldn't allow an existence where people could get cast into Hell forever. Being punished forever has only one goal in mind: Sadistic torment for its own sake.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Bottom Line: It's never too late to get to know your Savior!

Amen.

Luke 15:11-32

11And He said, "A man had two sons.

12"The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me ' So he divided his wealth between them.

13"And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.

14"Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.

15"So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16"And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.

17"But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!

18'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;

19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'

20"So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.

21"And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

22"But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;

23and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;

24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

25"Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.

26"And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.

27"And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'

28"But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.

29"But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;

30but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'

31"And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.

32'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"

 

[2ndAmendment]

Thats a really interesting quote, but did you remember it was from The Crucible, the play/movie about the salom witch trials? ...

Eenntt ... Wrong ... It was a Steven Seagal movie, Exit Wounds, that I heard it in.

 

[itsbob]

My Saviour is John Lennon..

Imagine no heaven, no hell below us.