Best reason for the holiday season

[This_person]

ok, as bustem has said, some animals have been shown to have self awareness, does that mean apes have souls?

I jumped a little bit too hard there, but...
a) in what way has it been shown they have "self awareness"? The communicating gorrilla?
b) My opinion is apes do not have souls. This is just my unsupported opinion, and I would be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise. Shown good evidence that they are "self aware", I might have to revisit that opinion.

and you car comparision is stupid. a machine and a living thing are not the same.

It was stupid. But, I'm tired!!

However, machine/animal comparisons are not stupid, IMO. This is what has occupied great philosophers, scientists, and religious folk alike for centuries - what is life? You've heard the arguments before - prove a fire is not alive.... Prove a car is not alive. Prove I am alive in ways that I can't counter with "yeah, but..." and show a machine does the same things.

We KNOW there's a difference, but prove it.

THAT to me is self awareness. My dog can't tell the different between a vaccuum cleaner being alive and a raccoon. I can.

 

[Xaquin44]

I jumped a little bit too hard there, but...
a) in what way has it been shown they have "self awareness"? The communicating gorrilla?
b) My opinion is apes do not have souls. This is just my unsupported opinion, and I would be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise. Shown good evidence that they are "self aware", I might have to revisit that opinion.It was stupid. But, I'm tired!!

However, machine/animal comparisons are not stupid, IMO. This is what has occupied great philosophers, scientists, and religious folk alike for centuries - what is life? You've heard the arguments before - prove a fire is not alive.... Prove a car is not alive. Prove I am alive in ways that I can't counter with "yeah, but..." and show a machine does the same things.

We KNOW there's a difference, but prove it.

THAT to me is self awareness. My dog can't tell the different between a vaccuum cleaner being alive and a raccoon. I can.

I think you must be tired indeed if you're asking proof that machines aren't alive.

hehe

 

[tommyjones]

I jumped a little bit too hard there, but...
a) in what way has it been shown they have "self awareness"? The communicating gorrilla?
b) My opinion is apes do not have souls. This is just my unsupported opinion, and I would be hard pressed to be convinced otherwise. Shown good evidence that they are "self aware", I might have to revisit that opinion.It was stupid. But, I'm tired!!

However, machine/animal comparisons are not stupid, IMO. This is what has occupied great philosophers, scientists, and religious folk alike for centuries - what is life? You've heard the arguments before - prove a fire is not alive.... Prove a car is not alive. Prove I am alive in ways that I can't counter with "yeah, but..." and show a machine does the same things.

We KNOW there's a difference, but prove it.

THAT to me is self awareness. My dog can't tell the different between a vaccuum cleaner being alive and a raccoon. I can.

my dog only tries to kill living things. i think she knows the difference between a racoon and a vacuum. does that mean she is self aware?

I think the studies regarding apes dealt with them recognizing themselves in a mirror or pictures of themselves and others..... but thats just from my memory.

 

[This_person]

I think you must be tired indeed if you're asking proof that machines aren't alive.

hehe

Obviously I know there's a difference. And, I know machines aren't alive. But, can you prove it? Seriously.

 

[Xaquin44]

Obviously I know there's a difference. And, I know machines aren't alive. But, can you prove it? Seriously.

yes. seriously.

 

[This_person]

I think the studies regarding apes dealt with them recognizing themselves in a mirror or pictures of themselves and others..... but thats just from my memory.

It would be interesting to see. I'll admit I'm unaware.

However, it took us off subject. While I think self-awareness is huge, I don't think that it's a pre-requisite for a soul. Thus, my feelings on abortion. I don't think a zygote is yet self aware, but I believe it has a soul.

 

[This_person]

yes. seriously.

Okay, give me a textbook differentiation of living things and fire... Or, a car.

 

[Xaquin44]

Okay, give me a textbook differentiation of living things and fire... Or, a car.

wait wait, before we start, are we talking sentient alive or alive like 'the engine roared to life'

because they are two different things.

also, organic or inorganic is where I was going .... which direction were you heading?

 

[This_person]

wait wait, before we start, are we talking sentient alive or alive like 'the engine roared to life'

because they are two different things.

also, organic or inorganic is where I was going .... which direction were you heading?

A tree is alive, but a stick isn't. A horse is alive, but a car isn't.

That kind of life.

 

[Xaquin44]

A tree is alive, but a stick isn't. A horse is alive, but a car isn't.

That kind of life.

oh ok .... so since you already know, what am I supposed to prove?

 

[tommyjones]

A tree is alive, but a stick isn't. A horse is alive, but a car isn't.

That kind of life.

but the real question isn't what is life, but what makes the life of a person more "alive" than that of a horse?

if the answer is the soul, what attributes, other than a name does this soul have?

 

[This_person]

oh ok .... so since you already know, what am I supposed to prove?

Just an old science teacher question.

Trees and people and animals consume. So does a fire, so does a car. Well, we breathe. So does a car, so does a fire. Well, a car can stop, and then be restarted. So can a person, so can a fish frozen in a pond over the winter....

Just calling something life isn't enough, what's the difference?

 

[camily]

my dog only tries to kill living things. i think she knows the difference between a racoon and a vacuum. does that mean she is self aware?

I think the studies regarding apes dealt with them recognizing themselves in a mirror or pictures of themselves and others..... but thats just from my memory.

My dog tries to kill the vacuum.

 

[This_person]

but the real question isn't what is life, but what makes the life of a person more "alive" than that of a horse?

if the answer is the soul, what attributes, other than a name does this soul have?

If I implied "more alive", than I misspoke. I just believe the life of a human to be worth more than the life of a horse, or a cow, or a chicken, or a mosquito.

And, yes, I believe the reason for that difference is the soul. I wish I could define a soul in chemical composition, or energy transfer equations. I would be enormously famous and wealthy (in more ways than one) if I could. I can't.

But, my perception of it is an energy force that is beyond just plain life, and continues on after the body is dead. I've heard of research where patients were placed on a scale near death, and someone calculated the weight of the human soul at some small oz amount. I don't know how much credence to give that, but I've heard it being done.

 

[Xaquin44]

Just an old science teacher question.

Trees and people and animals consume. So does a fire, so does a car. Well, we breathe. So does a car, so does a fire. Well, a car can stop, and then be restarted. So can a person, so can a fish frozen in a pond over the winter....

Just calling something life isn't enough, what's the difference?

Well, fire is a chemical reaction, where as breath is the transport of oxygen into the body I guess. The point is that life is animated where everything else is inanimate.

 

[tommyjones]

If I implied "more alive", than I misspoke. I just believe the life of a human to be worth more than the life of a horse, or a cow, or a chicken, or a mosquito.

And, yes, I believe the reason for that difference is the soul. I wish I could define a soul in chemical composition, or energy transfer equations. I would be enormously famous and wealthy (in more ways than one) if I could. I can't.

But, my perception of it is an energy force that is beyond just plain life, and continues on after the body is dead. I've heard of research where patients were placed on a scale near death, and someone calculated the weight of the human soul at some small oz amount. I don't know how much credence to give that, but I've heard it being done.

see, i call that life, or the life force. I dont understand it, but can recognize when it is there and when it isn't.

I wonder if the same experiments were done on animals? I mean, when they die, their life force or energy also leaves their bodies......

 

[toppick08]

see, i call that life, or the life force. I dont understand it, but can recognize when it is there and when it isn't.

I wonder if the same experiments were done on animals? I mean, when they die, their life force or energy also leaves their bodies......

ALL will stand and be judged before ALMIGHTY GOD.

 

[tommyjones]

ALL will stand and be judged before ALMIGHTY GOD.

including horses and mosquitos?

cuz i hope those mosquitos go straight to hell

 

[toppick08]

including horses and mosquitos?

No Sir, just people.......(souls).......animals have none.

 

[Xaquin44]

No Sir, just people.......(souls).......animals have none.

that you know of.