Bible contradictions

[Midnightrider]

Think again.


My birthplace has nothing to do with it.

I was an atheist for a good portion of my life. I came to Christianity though other means. You keep saying that my choice is based on a guess.

It's not.

Sure it does, you may not accept it, but where and by whom you were raised has everything to do with your beliefs.

Since you are not basing your choice on any facts, then you are basically guessing, its your best, educated guess, but its still a guess.

guessed , guess·ing , guess·es
VERB:
tr.


To predict (a result or an event) without sufficient information.
To assume, presume, or assert (a fact) without sufficient information.
To form a correct estimate or conjecture of: guessed the answer.
To suppose; think: I guess he was wrong.

 

[Tonio]

I went through my atheist period in college. As I learned more, I realized that science did not have the answers and the answers they proclaimed changed from time to time and certainly conflict at times.

I know of no one who claims that science is capable of answering spiritual and philosophical questions. Science simply attempts to explain natural phenomena. It doesn't attempt to provide meaning.

Have you ever read Gould's famous NOMA essay?
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html

[font=Arial, Helvetica, Ms sans serif]A very sincere and serious freshman student came to my office hours with the following question that had clearly been troubling him deeply: "I am a devout Christian and have never had any reason to doubt evolution, an idea that seems both exciting and particularly well documented. But my roommate, a proselytizing Evangelical, has been insisting with enormous vigor that I cannot be both a real Christian and an evolutionist. So tell me, can a person believe both in God and evolution?" Again, I gulped hard, did my intellectual duty, and reassured him that evolution was both true and entirely compatible with Christian belief—a position I hold sincerely, but still an odd situation for a Jewish agnostic...

[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, Ms sans serif]The net of science covers the empirical universe: what is it made of (fact) and why does it work this way (theory). The net of religion extends over questions of moral meaning and value. These two magisteria do not overlap, nor do they encompass all inquiry (consider, for starters, the magisterium of art and the meaning of beauty). To cite the arch cliches, we get the age of rocks, and religion retains the rock of ages; we study how the heavens go, and they determine how to go to heaven.[/font]

 

[2ndAmendment]

...
That's not quite true. I don't really care if people think my beliefs are wrong, although I don't understand what relevance my beliefs have to their personal lives.

Instead, my beef is with the idea of eternal damnation in both Christianity and Islam. According to these religions, it is acceptable that someone deliberately inflict everlasting torments on someone else who has the "wrong" beliefs. It is wrong for anyone to deliberately inflict suffering on another human being. And before anyone uses the "who are you to judge God" argument, the problem with that argument is that it doesn't allow for the possiblity that both the Bible and the Qu'ran may be wrong about God and hell.

Plus, when someone claims to know what God wants for me, I feel like I'm being controlled. Whether I believe in God or hell is not the point. The point is that both of these have enormous cultural significance that even people who aren't Christian or Muslim are influenced by these. So we grow up having these vulnerable spots in our psyche that others can use to manipulate us. Since everything that God does is defined to be good and just, it ultimately defines people who don't accept these beliefs as inherently evil.

Those spots are only vulnerable if you choose to make them vulnerable, or you have a deep seated belief that those that are proclaiming that unrepentant sinners are going to hell are right and you worry about that. If you don't believe, don't, and don't let it bother you what others think. That is part of growing up.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I know of no one who claims that science is capable of answering spiritual and philosophical questions. Science simply attempts to explain natural phenomena. It doesn't attempt to provide meaning.

Have you ever read Gould's famous NOMA essay?
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html

I had not even heard of Gould's famous NOMA essay, so how famous can it be?

This discussion is not going to change what Christians believe, post, or say. Sorry it is just not.

When you accept that the only person you can change is you, then you will be more comfortable with you and feel more secure. If you don't believe in Jesus, that is your choice. It is my choice to believe the Bible and believe anyone who is an unrepentant sinner without Jesus as savior is on the path to hell. If you don't believe that, it should be no skin off your nose. If you believe that I am right, then you should change your ways.

It is your choice to let something bother you or not bother you. It is as simple as that. If reading that unrepentant sinners go to hell bothers you, don't read those threads. I would suggest that you stay out of religious discussions anywhere including real life. If you choose to read what or speak with those that are religious, no matter what the religion, be prepared to feel offended but don't expect those people to change what they post or speak because you feel offended. It is your choice; read - don't read, speak with - don't speak with. Your choice; no one else's, yours.

It seems to me that your are like a person who is offended by carnage and bloodshed but won't changed the channel away from the train wreck because they don't want to miss something, but they keep complaining about all the blood and gore. Change the channel already.

 

[Tonio]

Those spots are only vulnerable if you choose to make them vulnerable, or you have a deep seated belief that those that are proclaiming that unrepentant sinners are going to hell are right and you worry about that. If you don't believe, don't, and don't let it bother you what others think. That is part of growing up.

For me, the "deep seated belief" is not specifically about religion. The belief is that I have to meet others' expectations in order to be worthy of love, or that people will hurt me if I make them angry at me. I hate having that belief, but I can't seem to get rid of it.

 

[Tonio]

When you accept that the only person you can change is you, then you will be more comfortable with you and feel more secure.

Aren't people who proselytize attempting to change other people?

If reading that unrepentant sinners go to hell bothers you, don't read those threads.

So I should just let other people say vile things about me without standing up for myself? I should just be a doormat? I should just roll over and play dead for them?

It seems to me that your are like a person who is offended by carnage and bloodshed but won't changed the channel away from the train wreck because they don't want to miss something, but they keep complaining about all the blood and gore. Change the channel already.

Quite the opposite - my wife watches "Gray's Anatomy" but I find the show uncomfortable. I tried watching an episode, but I left the room halfway through because it had two people poleaxed during a train accident, and the doctors couldn't remove the pole without killing one or both of them. Even now as I type this, it's scary to imagine myself in that situation. True story - one of my middle-school teachers said you could seriously damage your liver if you broke that little pointy bone below your sternum, and for years afterward I would check the bone if I fell on my chest or if something hit me in the chest.

 

[2ndAmendment]

BUT that isnt what i asked about, and nice of you to ignore it. Jesus STATED THE MUSTARD SEED IS THE SMALLEST, and birds make nests in the branches of the tree (what you keep hitting on while ignoring the rest)

BUT ONCE AGAIN Jesus STATED THE MUSTARD SEED IS THE SMALLEST SEED, its Not.....

Sorry, but it does not say that the mustard seed is the smallest. It said that it is the smallest seed sown in the earth (dirt, soil) not that is is absolutely the smallest seed and that is only in Mark and not in the other references. It was a comparison as opposed to wheat, barley, oats, and the other crop seeds of the area and time. I don't know, but I don't think they sowed carrots or celery and dill grows wild as does thyme. The comparison was to show how something very small could grow into something very large. Jesus was saying that the start of Christianity was very small but would grow very large. He also was saying that the seed is sown but the sower has no ability to make the seed grow. This is another reason Christians proclaim the gospel to everyone; we just sow seeds and let the Holy Spirit do the growing and provide the harvesters.

 

[2ndAmendment]

For me, the "deep seated belief" is not specifically about religion. The belief is that I have to meet others' expectations in order to be worthy of love, or that people will hurt me if I make them angry at me. I hate having that belief, but I can't seem to get rid of it.

I am not angry with you. Christians love you unconditionally; that is another thing we are instructed by the Bible to do. Christians are instructed to love even their enemies. Some don't love as they should, but that is their failing to deal with. You do not have to meet my expectations; I have none of you.

It sounds like you have some deep seated issues that need dealt with. I can say I love you, but will you believe me? I don't know you, but Jesus tells me I need to love you and comfort you. There are those that I know IRL on this board. Most do not have the same convictions I have. Many are not Christians at all. I still love them, treat them as friends, and have compassion for them when they are having problems.

The Christian message, the message of the gospel is the message of ultimate love of God for humankind. It is the message no one is good enough but God loves you anyway and has provided a pathway to His kingdom through His own sacrifice as Jesus.

My prayer for you is that God will grant you peace and understanding and show you His true love.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Aren't people who proselytize attempting to change other people?

I don't know about others, but I am a seed sower.

So I should just let other people say vile things about me without standing up for myself? I should just be a doormat? I should just roll over and play dead for them?

Quit takeing general posts as personal attacks. I have not seen even one post that says, "Tonio, you are going to hell."

Quite the opposite - my wife watches "Gray's Anatomy" but I find the show uncomfortable. I tried watching an episode, but I left the room halfway through because it had two people poleaxed during a train accident, and the doctors couldn't remove the pole without killing one or both of them. Even now as I type this, it's scary to imagine myself in that situation. True story - one of my middle-school teachers said you could seriously damage your liver if you broke that little pointy bone below your sternum, and for years afterward I would check the bone if I fell on my chest or if something hit me in the chest.

Yet, you continue to read in the Religion forum.

 

[Tonio]

I have not seen even one post that says, "Tonio, you are going to hell."

Sorry, I should have clarified that it hasn't happened on this Web site. But it has happened to me a couple of times on other sites, including ones that have nothing to do with religion. Usually it's because I'll post my opinions about issues such as the Air Force Academy scandal or the Pledge of Allegiance. I suspect that some people wrongly assume I want to see religion banned or something equally ludicrious, and while I strive to be diplomatic in how I voice my opinions, perhaps I could do a better job of it.

 

[Tonio]

Yet, you continue to read in the Religion forum.

Well, if the doctors on the show turned to the screen and said, "You'll be poleaxed yourself if you watch CSI instead of our show," I might call and write the network to reinforce my right to watch whatever show I want.

 

[2ndAmendment]

First we noticed you dismissed Poppy seeds, and they were in the region at the time, and the people would have been familiar with them.
Go here for descriptions, they have a nice picture of a Poppy Seed vs Mustard Seed

Second its used twice (that i could find) :...

I don't think they sowed poppys; they grow wild. Maybe they did, but, hey, I don't know. Don't really care. I don't see where the passage in the King James or The New American Standard claims the mustard seed is the smallest, just that is is small or the smallest on the ground and grows to be a large tree. You take it however you want, but you are missing the meaning. But that is why Jesus spoke in parables anyway.

Mark 4:10-12

10As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables.

11And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,

12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."

 

[2ndAmendment]

Well, if the doctors on the show turned to the screen and said, "You'll be poleaxed yourself if you watch CSI instead of our show," I might call and write the network to reinforce my right to watch whatever show I want.

Or you could take the remote and change the channel. Easy. Same thing applies to this forum or any forum. Don't go there. Easy. Or if you go there and someone says something you disagree with, take it for what is worth; it is the Internet.

Again, if the gospel strikes a cord within you, then maybe you need to reconsider your stance. If it does not. then carry on as though what is said does not matter.

 

[Roughidle]

Or you could take the remote and change the channel. Easy. Same thing applies to this forum or any forum. Don't go there. Easy. Or if you go there and someone says something you disagree with, take it for what is worth; it is the Internet.

Again, if the gospel strikes a cord within you, then maybe you need to reconsider your stance. If it does not. then carry on as though what is said does not matter.

Well said.

 

[Tonio]

Or you could take the remote and change the channel. Easy. Same thing applies to this forum or any forum. Don't go there. Easy. Or if you go there and someone says something you disagree with, take it for what is worth; it is the Internet.

When someone tells me I will suffer for what I believe or don't believe, I feel like I should do something proactive to stand up for myself. Obviously, it's not the same thing as fighting back if someone throws a punch at me. Still, changing the channel or staying out of a forum feels too passive, like I'm turning tail and running like a coward instead of defending myself.

 

[Toxick]

Birthplace, environmental, familial and exposure all have EVERYTHING to do with it.

I have always been very forthright and honest in my dealings with you and everybody else in these forums. I am very careful not to put words into peoples mouths, and I'm try not to make assumptions if I can help it. Not only in the Religion forum, but also in Chit-Chat, Politics, News and Horses.

Every value, opinion and belief that I hold, has been examined by me to the best of my ability, and has been examined from every facet that my little mind can fathom.

Not a few of values, opinions and beliefs - ALL of them.

I have been trying to discover who I am for my entire adult life. At this point in my life, I finally feel confident that I know exactly who I am and why I believe the way I do, not just in regards to Spirituality, but also about Politics, Relationships, Sociology, Current Events, Music, People and Places.

I hold American values because my birthplace and environment. I respect and uphold the constitution - mainly because I'm an American and I've never been anything else.

I am a Baltimore Orioles fan because I was born in Baltimore, and I grew up following the likes of Brooks Robinson, Jim Palmer and Cal Ripken.


I know exactly why I feel the way I do about almost every facet of my life.


I don't know exactly why I prefer potato chips to cookies, or why I prefer blue over mauve, or why I like pretty legs over large breasts... But when it comes to the things that I have a choice about - I know exactly why I make the choices I do.



Both you and MidnightRider have insulted me by presuming to know me better than I know myself by dismissivly contradicting something that I have flat out told you about myself.


Perhaps I'm being sensitive, but if you're just going to wave your hand and say "Bah!" when I make an assertion - especially an assertion about something that has taken me a lifetime to realize - then I have nothing further to say to either one of you.

Believe what you want about me, I'm done with you.

 

[Tonio]

Toxick has an excellent point. Nucklesack's statement suggests, at least to me, that the only reason people belong to a religion is because they've been conditioned by upbringing and environment. Religious people would have every right to feel insulted by such an assumption.

 

[2ndAmendment]

First he's (Jesus) is talking about sowing (lol) mustard, but when he states its the smallest he says of all upon the ground.. poppys fall into that category. (as well as epiphytic orchids)

are you being obtuse? or just not aware of the passages?

King James Mathew 13:31

King James Mathew 13:32

New American Standard Mathew 13:31

New American Standard Mathew 13:32

King James Mark 4:30

King James Mark 4:31

New American Standard Mark 4:30

New American Standard Mark 4:31

​

The sentence structure, actually says Mustard seeds are the smallest seeds that are upon the soil, sowed or not


Can this not be said of all the gospels?

Mark Matthew, Luke etc. are summarizing, remembering, giving what they thought was the `meaning' of Jesus's statements.

So when Jesus is recorded as saying something silly it is easier to explain away as the gospels trying to summarize his meaning.

If god and/or Jesus are all knowing, then they would know the truth about this and countless other things. Yet it's all based on what was believed 2,000+ years ago and isn't the REAL truth.

You will believe what you will believe as I will believe what I believe. I certainly did not want to accept what the Bible said as truth when I was partying hard in college. I was doing exactly what the Bible says is sin, so it was easier to think that the Bible was not true than it was to think I was on the road to hell. I was on the same road as most of the world; the road of destruction. God loves me and turned me around. Glad He did. I hope He does the same thing for you and everyone, but you do have free will whether you believe it or not unless you are not human in reality and are one of the evil ones here to deceive and destroy. You can nit pick if you wish; I choose to believe. Your nit picking has no effect on my faith.

 

[Midnightrider]

Both you and MidnightRider have insulted me by presuming to know me better than I know myself by dismissivly contradicting something that I have flat out told you about myself.

Perhaps I'm being sensitive, but if you're just going to wave your hand and say "Bah!" when I make an assertion - especially an assertion about something that has taken me a lifetime to realize - then I have nothing further to say to either one of you.

Believe what you want about me, I'm done with you.

So because it has taken you a life time to realize your best guess, and you firmly believe that your best guess is accurate it is less of a guess.

I'm not trying to be insulting, just trying to have a conversation. I know that my opinions about the afterlife and god are just my best guess, and i feel that others are the same.

 

[Roughidle]

Toxick has an excellent point. Nucklesack's statement suggests, at least to me, that the only reason people belong to a religion is because they've been conditioned by upbringing and environment. Religious people would have every right to feel insulted by such an assumption.

Initially as children this would be true or as isolated adults. Ofcourse as one grows and is exposed to different idealologies, one may choose to walk a different path.