Fahrenheit 9/11 Thread...

valentino

Member
Originally posted by 2ndAmendment
And I should be concerned (correct spelling as opposed to your "concered") with what some Frenchman or German wants me to do, have, or behave? Get real.

So, I made a spelling and grammar mistake...I was making a joke to you since you had so many in almost all of your posts. Anyway, you are right, I was wrong to talk about your skills when obviously I am too caught up in what I am typing to pay attention to errors at all times.

If you think that all the UN does is tell other countries what to do, then you need to "get real". You seem like the kind of guy that thinks everyone is out to get them, so I doubt your fear and paranoia will decrease anytime soon. Go shoot something, make yourself feel better.:baby:
 

rraley

New Member
Originally posted by SamSpade
This is where, I think, liberal ivory-tower type thinking comes grinding to a halt in the face of Republican pragmatism.

The cold reality is that while it's nice to have these high-minded, lofty ideals of what is good for humanity, a lot of humanity hates it when we go about trying to set them straight. Republicans are pragmatists at heart, and so am I.

Liberals are often these academia types who have great ideas, but in the real world, they're just impossible. An idealist will waste his time and energy on an ideal that might be impossible to implement, because he's convinced it's the best solution. The pragmatist goes with what is possible.

Strong alliances are good. But they must have a meaningful *purpose*. We're not always going to be allied with the same people. Britain is our best friend, but for 100 years, they were our most bitter rival and antagonist. Japan is our next best friend, but we fought a horrible war with them not 60 years ago. Things change. Nations don't form "friendships" for all time.

I mean, I probably seem to be babbling like an idiot here, but the nasty truth of politics is that idealism is usually foolishness.

First of all, very excellent post sir. It was nice to get a meaningful post that was devoid of references to retards, terrorist sympathizers, etc.

I fully understand the concern that you have with modern day liberals and the concept of academic idealism. Many rural conservatives view the Democratic Party and the liberal ideology as being dominated by elitests who never really think things all the way through.

I will tell you that from 1980 until 1992 the Democratic Party was held hostage by the sort of idealist, elitest liberals you referred to. They were out of touch with governing and implementing their solutions, but I am confident that my party has turned away from that (I cite Howard Dean's whooping loss in the primaries as proof that we have). We have moderated and I believe that the Democratic Party and the "third way" or center-left is the most pragmatic of all parties and ideologies out there. We as a party have renounced our opposition to the death penalty because we finally have realized that those who murder in the most terrible crimes have no right to live anymore. We have turned away from the old politics of tax and spend; we now embrace passing business-oriented policies such as reducing the capital gains tax, the marginal corporate rate, deficit reduction, and passing incentives for job creation.

When I mentioned my support of strong alliances, that didn't accurately characterize my position. I believe in interventionist multilateralism. When there are looming human rights crises in the world we as the most powerful nation in the world cannot morally stay on the sidelines. And when we decide to use our military force, we must ask for the support of the world community so that our efforts do not seem imperialistic and so that they enjoy credibility. I have read posts from some on this forum that say that the UN does not have US security at the top of its list of concerns. That is a misguided statement. If the UN is consulted and the worldwide community comes to our backing, then our security will be infallible.
 

BuddyLee

Football addict
Originally posted by SuperGrover
finally broke away from your maryjane thread?

Which maryjane thread are you referring? The Spoiltards thread or the lovey Buddy Lee/Janey thread?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Originally posted by valentino
Go shoot something, make yourself feel better.:baby:
I just want to point something out here:

The same person that is complaining about derogatory remarks and name calling is doing the same thing himself to others.

That's all. Carry on.
 

rraley

New Member
My family and I plan to see the movie this weekend while we stay in Georgetown for the fourth and some college visits just so we can see what all the buzz is about. When I get back on Monday, I'll write what I thought of the documentary.

As for what Richard Cohen had to say, I think that he is dead on in his assessment of the far left and its effect on the Democratic Party. The left has taken to wonderfully outlandish conspiracy theories on everything from the 2000 Election to the real reasoning behind the Iraq War. I have many liberal friends and relatives who are convinced, completely convinced, that President Bush and Governor Jeb Bush stole the last election in Florida. They point to isolated incidents, lost ballot boxes, and even Bush saying that he was certain that he won Florida as proof of their conspiracy theory. Now I firmly believe that more people went to the polls in Florida intending to vote for Al Gore, but that because of a Democratic-approved ballot, more votes came out for President Bush. And the actual, final vote tally is all that matters, not how many intended to vote a certain way. My friends also firmly believe that going in Iraq was simply for the reasons of getting oil and President Bush settling a family score for the assassination attempt on his father. I always tell them to calm the hell down and think rationally. I am sick of liberal friends pushing conspiracy theories that will never have any sort of substantive proof. It makes the liberal argument seem sophomoric and irrational. Look at facts, statistics, and provide rational for your own arguments, rather than creating made up connections that produce an impossible conspiracy theory.
 
D

Dixie

Guest
Okay fess up which rraley are you? I thought for a minute Dan or maybe Ray but my conversations with both of them are ususally limited to kidding around so I don't know if they express themselves that deeply or not. Both really nice men by the way. I just like what you say (for the most part, sometimes I don't agree) and the fact that you don't feel the need to label posters with names. By the way I know people who have seen "the movie" and have said it's provocative to put it mildly and that includes one staunch Republican.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
Well written, rraley. I wish more liberal folks were as rational as you. Unfortunately, almost all the ones I know make Michael Moore look like Pat Robertson.

I'd have to say, the left now has something the right has always had to deal with, in my adult life - a lunatic fringe that they'd love to ignore, but cannot afford to.
 

rraley

New Member
Thank you for the kind words SamSpade and Dixie. To Dixie, I am neither of those two people that you mentioned (I am just a mere high school student who has a passion for politics and debate) and I am glad that you have such a good opinion of what I post. Namecalling is counterproductive and is essentially mean and spiritless and I do not wish to subsribe to that sort of debate.

As for the growing radical left and its effect on the Democratic Party that I so dearly believe in...it is sadly increasing its influence, just look at the Howard Dean "revolution" we saw and the rise of the stature of the Moore types. During the 1990s under the centrism of the Clinton Administration (after the Health Care wake-up call), the Democratic Party could easily suppress the concerns of the radical left, but without Clinton leading the party, I seriously doubt that we can continue on with pushing the fringe left away. I am hoping that the fringe left is just a temporary political force that will die down after the man that they hate (George W. Bush) is either defeated or retired. If they don't die down, don't stop making indefensible arguments, and keep gaining influence in the party, I fear that the Democrats are headed towards a generation of being the minority.
 
C

czygvtwkr

Guest
Originally posted by Spoiled
Let me point out 2 flaws for you... that is elementry school, and that isnt leonardtown... I know that they where refered to as freedom fries at leonardtown highschool, if you would like i can provide phone numbers to many students who will verify this...

Well I have heard things refered to as mystery meat but nobody got upset because it was really supposed to chicken.
 

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
I'm 80% sure you didn't do it, but......

Originally posted by rraley
(I am just a mere high school student who has a passion for politics and debate)

As for the growing radical left and its effect on the Democratic Party that I so dearly believe in...it is sadly increasing its influence, just look at the Howard Dean "revolution" we saw and the rise of the stature of the Moore types. During the 1990s under the centrism of the Clinton Administration (after the Health Care wake-up call), the Democratic Party could easily suppress the concerns of the radical left, but without Clinton leading the party, I seriously doubt that we can continue on with pushing the fringe left away. I am hoping that the fringe left is just a temporary political force that will die down after the man that they hate (George W. Bush) is either defeated or retired. If they don't die down, don't stop making indefensible arguments, and keep gaining influence in the party, I fear that the Democrats are headed towards a generation of being the minority.

First, you are one heck of a high school student with the understanding you display with your recent posts:clap:

But what I really hear in your critique of the Democratic Party is what Sen. Zel Miller(D) from Georgia(I believe) has been saying for months on end now.

They are dangerously close to making themselves the party of the past.

Sen. Zell Miller: Op-Ed piece

I think he has a good head on his shoulders and thinks about ALL Americans, and not just his party.
 

rraley

New Member
Well I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 this Saturday while my family stayed in Georgetown (as an aside, Georgetown University and Catholic University are absolutely amazing and Georgetown itself is astonishing). After being mobbed outside of the theater by DNC volunteers, we moved into the theater where we got the best seats to see Michael Moore's latest documentary and my reaction was...mixed.

The beginning of the movie starts with images of Al Gore and the 2000 Election. The first fact that Moore points to is the dubious projections of Florida votes. As we all remember, the networks (based on Voter News Survey projections) projected Florida as going for Gore. Then that changed and later in the night they all projected the state for Bush. Well, FOX was the first network to project Florida for Bush and of course that will make some irrational liberals question the validity of it. Moore than says that the person who was in charge of making FOX's projections was the first cousin of President Bush. Now the individual networks do not make their own projections as Moore insinuates. VNS does and the networks report that. So the whole Bush cousin thing is just stupid and wrong. Then of course the whole my brother is the governor of Florida thing and the chairman of my campaign is the secretary of state. Moore plays "guilty by association" here and it is not the first occassion.

Moore then ridicules Bush for well, going on vacation a little too often. This part made me chuckle and it does disturb me that Bush spend 42% of his time away from the White House that first year in office. Then 9/11 happens and the sounds and sights of that day are shown on the screen. I always have a tough time dealing with the events of that day and viewing the images again made me emotional. Then Moore shows 9/11 panel testimony from Richard Clarke and others that said that Bush did not do all that he could to stop 9/11 (he neglected the report's finding that Clinton may not have done all that he could have either). Then he goes into the most dubious part of the film: the Saudi-Bush connection and the insinuation that Bush allowed 9/11 to happen because of those connections and the financial dividends that the Bush family and Saudis would experience after 9/11. Moore plots two points on a map and then connects them with a line that makes the single bullet theory look straight. It is a shame that he chose to suggest that Bush actually wanted 9/11 to happen; he should have emphasized certain intelligence failures, administration failures, and Bush's seemingly lack of engagement on terrorism issues prior to 9/11.

After this, the movie moves into the Iraq war phase. This has to be the most powerful part of the movie. Moore chronicles the family of one Flint, Michigan soldier who died in a helicopter crash in Baghdad and the family's reaction. He meets with one soldier who has been in Iraq that says that he will never go back. He asks congressmen to sign up their children to go there, but they refuse to. He tells the untold story of Iraqi civilian deaths and shows the horrible graphic burning of Americans in their car. Of course, Moore does make it seem like Hussein's Iraq was peaceful where children fly kites all the time, but the rest seems pretty factually correct: there was no al Qaeda-Iraq connection, there have been no WMD found, there were miscalculations going into the war, and there is a terrific personal toll being taken on many military families. This part will make even the most committed of war supporters to question their stance especially with the images of Iraqi civilians dead and mourning families.

On the Raley scale of five stars, Fahrenheit gets 5 stars for purely cinematic reasons and 2 stars when it comes to political content and straightforwardness. I suggest that you all see it, whether you are liberal, conservative, or moderate. It is tought provoking and will make you consider your opinions more carefully. While it did not sway me away from support for the war, it may do that to others and it will make us consider why we do support the war. So hold your noise, fork over the $7 to see the movie and you will enjoy it.
 

sleuth

Livin' Like Thanksgivin'
Originally posted by rraley
I suggest that you all see it, whether you are liberal, conservative, or moderate. It is tought provoking and will make you consider your opinions more carefully. While it did not sway me away from support for the war, it may do that to others and it will make us consider why we do support the war. So hold your noise, fork over the $7 to see the movie and you will enjoy it.

I'll see it, for the purely cinematic reasons you mentioned above. But given Moore's views and mythical fact making, I'm not going to support him with a single dime. I'll wait until it comes out free on Comcast on Demand or I'll download a bootleg version on WinMX. :ohwell: Sure, it's wrong to steal bootleg movies, but in this case I'm willing to break the law to make my own personal political statement.

Thanks for the review. :smile:
 

rraley

New Member
Originally posted by sleuth
Sure, it's wrong to steal bootleg movies

Yes, because doing that makes it so that the children of actors and musicians only receive cars on their birthday and not that private island they always wanted.
 

Spoiled

Active Member
The 9-11 sounds part was beginning to get to me... Him asking the congressmen to enlist their children was just pure comedy... One other thing aobut iraq he brought up that you rarely hear about is the non death resulting casualties... he had footage of many amputees and what not, was very moving ;\
 

SurfaceTension

New Member
Originally posted by rraley
I suggest that you all see it So hold your noise, fork over the $7 to see the movie.....

Interesting...You use words like "dubious" (more than once), "made me chuckle", point out false insinuations, intentional ommissions, and incorrect/invalid assumption....Yet you recommend that I see this "documentary".

Nope, just like the Oliver Stone flicks, I don't reward cheesey hucksters that play loose with facts, while claiming to be honest/objective, when all they're documenting is a rabid political obsession.
 
Top