Gospel of Inclusion.

[2ndAmendment]

It is okay by me if you continue to hold onto that belief of Hell,

but I made the thread for anyone that wants more.

That text you give link HERE says that those who believe "has everlasting life" and so how can one burn in Hell unless those that do not believe had everlasting life too?

That contradiction does not add up.

The fact is that those that believe now receive great blessings now in this life, but on Judgement Day then everyone will be believers because then everyone will bow and confess.

The Hell concept says everyone already has eternal life in Heaven or in Hell, but that text of yours says only believers have eternal life and non believers do not.

The contradiction is in the untruth that some how God would let anyone slip through without being saved.

God does not even allow for one lost sheep - not even one. That means people do nothing to earn it - saved is a "gift" and not a choice.

Those that chose it are "boasting" here now that they chose God by there work of choosing and it is wrong link HERE.

You are proclaiming a lie as truth. If anyone is led astray by that lie, God may hold you accountable.

It is you that is wrong. The Bible is not false. Your are a teller of falsehoods.

You have to accept a gift. You have to claim a prize. It is not yours until you ask for it.

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

The Bible is not false. Your are a teller of falsehoods.

See in my post I gave correct quotes from the Bible,

and I gave correct links to the Bible texts.

That 2A is playing the role of accuser.

 

[PsyOps]

If we (or one) commit any sin now then we reap what we sow now in this present time.

If one does "lie, cheat, blaspheme God, murder", etc., then they will pay any penalty ourself now as we live in this present world and not after death.

If one steals then they live as a thief, or perhaps goes to jail, same with murder or any sin then the person lives here as a murderer and maybe life in jail or executed by the law but not torture for all eternity after they die.

Really? How do you explain people like Michael Newdow (and all other atheists)? How are they paying for their complete loathing for God is this current life? We’re not just talking about breaking the law and going to jail for it. We are talking about sinning against God and the penalty for not asking, through Jesus, forgiveness. You are thinking on a different plane than me. You are thinking about the consequences we, man, places on each other for breaking the law; I am talking about God’s judgment on us for not accepting his plan for salvation.

The ten commandments and all of Jesus teachings ALL tell us how to live now because now is what matters and not after death because after death is all taken care of by Jesus sacrifice.

But, as you have already said this doesn’t matter, we are saved anyway. So accepting the Commandments and Jesus’ teachings or how we live has no meaning in your world, whether it’s here and now or “after death”. And that’s where you have it wrong… in God’s terms our goal should be to live for God’s eternal gift, not the here and now. We don’t do things here and now so we wont suffer here and now; we do here and now so we will be accepted in God’s kingdom. The first step in that is accepting Christ.

Consider Adolf Hitler as he must be in Hell now some 62 years in torment and torture with the loving Christ looking on if the Orthodox "Hell" were true, and claiming we do not know who is in Hell is a big cop-out because if Hitler is not burning then the rest of us certainly do not compare to him so that if Hitler is not burning then we sure have nothing to worry about.

I don’t even know what you’re saying here. None of us know what Hitler’s demise is as this can only be decided by God.

I say the "Hell" is not a correct interpretation and that Jesus would never do that to anyone, and Jesus said to love our enemies link HERE because our Father in Heaven does that.

If Adolf Hitler (or anyone else) is burning in Hell then that God would be a tyrant and a monster and a hypocrite.

No, Jesus wouldn’t The role of Jesus is to reach to all of us and for us to accept Him for salvation. It is God’s role to judge. Actually God is a tyrant and a dictator, up to a point. He has a set of rules that are set in stone. HE made the rules, not you. HE decides who gets in to heaven and who goes to hell. HE has the final say. This is HIS creation and HE gets to decide. You are part of that creation, but you don’t like the rules He has set. So you are setting your own. God will not allow for that. Yes, he is a dictator from that standpoint. Where he’s not a dictator is YOU get to decide. Sounds like you have decided.

 

[2ndAmendment]

See in my post I gave correct quotes from the Bible,

and I gave correct links to the Bible texts.

That 2A is playing the role of accuser.

And you are playing the role of tool of satan.

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

Really? How do you explain people like Michael Newdow (and all other atheists)? How are they paying for their complete loathing for God is this current life?

The man you referenced is said to be an "athiest" and he belong to a "Universal Life Church" and he is Jewish, link HERE so like him - I find that most people that claim to be "athiest" are really just preaching against the beligerant people of Christian Orthodoxy.

But even if one were truely "athiest" and truely have no God then they are the ones that are depriving themselves of the greatest blessings in this whole world.

They are lost, and that is their biggest payment and their biggest punishment in this world.

I say there is no greater punishment then to live this life without having faith and privledge that only come from the true God.

But, as you have already said this doesn’t matter, we are saved anyway. So accepting the Commandments and Jesus’ teachings or how we live has no meaning in your world, whether it’s here and now or “after death”. And that’s where you have it wrong…

I never preach that.

I say the ten commandments and the teachings of Jesus are wonderful and it enpowers the believer to move mountains and to be somebody that counts.

To disobey the commands and the principles will destroy anybody's life fast and immediate.

in God’s terms our goal should be to live for God’s eternal gift, not the here and now. We don’t do things here and now so we wont suffer here and now; we do here and now so we will be accepted in God’s kingdom. The first step in that is accepting Christ.

If one follows Christ for the reasons above then their motivations are wrong and their efforts are vain.

We must do right because it is right and not for any reward.

I don’t even know what you’re saying here. None of us know what Hitler’s demise is as this can only be decided by God.

We do know that Hitler killed his wife and himself and ordered his body burned and did not order a surrender for the war to end, so Hitler did not get saved between the pulling his trigger and the bullet killing him.

Therefore if Hitler is not in Hell then no of us that only curse, sin, adultery, lie, are all little nothings compared to Hitler.

So if Hitler is not burning in Hell now 62 years then there is no reason to believe anybody is burning in Hell.

In fact that makes Hell into a fraud.

And even if we deny Hitler being there, then is there evil angels burning and being tortured in Hell by your version of our loving God.

I say that even if angels or demons are being tortured then you serve an unmerciful monster as your God.

My God from the Bible loves His enemies, link HERE.

Jesus never preached torturing people in any way.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...
We must do right because it is right and not for any reward.We do know that Hitler killed his wife and himself and ordered his body burned and did not order a surrender for the war to end, so Hitler did not get saved between the pulling his trigger and the bullet killing him.

Therefore if Hitler is not in Hell then no of us that only curse, sin, adultery, lie, are all little nothings compared to Hitler.

So if Hitler is not burning in Hell now 62 years then there is no reason to believe anybody is burning in Hell.

In fact that makes Hell into a fraud.

And even if we deny Hitler being there, then is there evil angels burning and being tortured in Hell by your version of our loving God.

I say that even if angels or demons are being tortured then you serve an unmerciful monster as your God.

My God from the Bible loves His enemies, link HERE.

Jesus never preached torturing people in any way.

There are no distinctions between sins. One sin is as bad as another. And all sin is deserving of the same consequence - death - separation for eternity from God - casting into the lake of fire.

According to scripture, Hilter is in the grave now and if judged bu Jesus to the lake of fire at the resurrection. Those that die in this life that are already saved do not wait in the grave but go directly to heaven.

All you have to do is read the Bible JPC.

 

[PsyOps]

We do know that Hitler killed his wife and himself and ordered his body burned and did not order a surrender for the war to end, so Hitler did not get saved between the pulling his trigger and the bullet killing him.

Therefore if Hitler is not in Hell then no of us that only curse, sin, adultery, lie, are all little nothings compared to Hitler.

So if Hitler is not burning in Hell now 62 years then there is no reason to believe anybody is burning in Hell.

In fact that makes Hell into a fraud.

And even if we deny Hitler being there, then is there evil angels burning and being tortured in Hell by your version of our loving God.

I say that even if angels or demons are being tortured then you serve an unmerciful monster as your God.

My God from the Bible loves His enemies, link HERE.

Jesus never preached torturing people in any way.

You don’t seem to recognize that there is a place where those that are not saved go after the second death. You want to refer to hell as this place where people go to get cleansed, the bible says differently. There is a hell called the grave where God calls up everyone to be judge and “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. (Rev 20:15)”; that same pool of fire where “The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev 20:10)”. The condition for being the book of life was mandated when Christ said: “Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:18)”. All of these verses you have conveniently ignored for your own convenient purposes.

Do you know what condemned means JPC? It does not mean saved.

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

You don’t seem to recognize that there is a place where those that are not saved go after the second death. You want to refer to hell as this place where people go to get cleansed, the bible says differently. There is a hell called the grave where God calls up everyone to be judge and “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. (Rev 20:15)”; that same pool of fire where “The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev 20:10)”. The condition for being the book of life was mandated when Christ said: “Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:18)”. All of these verses you have conveniently ignored for your own convenient purposes.

Do you know what condemned means JPC? It does not mean saved.

We must use the symbols in the book of Revelations in context with the direct words of Jesus Christ link HERE.

The Book of Revelations is harder to understand but the words of Jesus in the Gosples are not so difficult.

The "second death" is where those resurrected persons "die to sin" link HERE.

The "pool of fire" is a fire that cleans and purifies (not torture) link HERE God's "ministers are a flame of fire",

and like Moses and the burning bush that God called "holy ground" link HERE.

The Devil and false prophet are tormented day and night because the children of God all won and not by torture.

And "condemned" in John 3:18 says they are condemned "already" and that means now already in this present world and not condemned after death.

And see in verse 19 it actually tells us what "condemned" means to Christ link HERE.

It means those people are lost in darkness and not being tortured by our loving Father God.

 

[PsyOps]

We must use the symbols in the book of Revelations in context with the direct words of Jesus Christ

The command to love each other is for us. We already know God loves us because of his place for our salvation. But God does not want anyone in his Kingdom that does not abide by his command to accept Christ.

The Book of Revelations is harder to understand but the words of Jesus in the Gosples are not so difficult.

And sorry to be so rude but you exemplify this inability to understand it. If you understood Jesus’ words you would understand his words in John 3:18 “Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” This states quite clearly that those that do not accept Christ as their Lord and Savior are condemned to this pool of fire forever. You can envision what this pool is like how ever you want. I don’t claim to know what it is; all I know is it’s a place I don’t want my soul to go. It’s about the SOUL JPC. Not the here and now on this earth.

The "second death" is where those resurrected persons "die to sin".

The "pool of fire" is a fire that cleans and purifies (not torture) God's "ministers are a flame of fire"

This is false. The Bible refers several times about how those that don’t believe will suffer (or torture as you like to put it):

I say to you, many will come from the east and the west, and will recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the banquet in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom will be driven out into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:11-12)

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom 21 all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42)

Thus it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matthew 13:49-50)

For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matthew 25:29-30)

Then he will say to you, 'I do not know where (you) are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!' And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out. (Luke 13:27-28)

And understand that it is not God that is condemning us (or torturing us as you like to put it); it is us that does it to ourselves. Like the person that murders someone and has to face the death penalty. It's not the government that putting this guy to death; he did it to himself by rejecting the law. If we reject God we bring this judgment on ourselves.

And "condemned" in John 3:18 says they are condemned "already" and that means now already in this present world and not condemned after death.

False again. This means that God ALREADY knows who they are and they stand condemned.

And see in verse 19 it actually tells us what "condemned" means to Christ

It means those people are lost in darkness and not being tortured by our loving Father God.

This has nothing to do with torture. It has to do with judgment; judgment only God can impose. You are applying worldly definitions to things that are spiritual. If you had read on to verses 20 and 21 you would see there are two types of people, those that chose (IN THEIR HEARTS AND SOULS) to live in the light (Jesus) and adhere to the truth of God are saved (not condemned) and those that continue to do wicked things and refuse the light (Jesus) are condemned. This light is Jesus as he stated:

Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." (John 8:12)

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

But God does not want anyone in his Kingdom that does not abide by his command to accept Christ.

That is a worldly opinion of yours and of others but the Bible says that God gives unconditional love.

That unconditional love means that His enemies do not have any conditions to accept or not to accept because the "gift" of God is "eternal life" and not eternal torture link HERE.

The Bible refers several times about how those that don’t believe will suffer (or torture as you like to put it):

The weeping and knashing of teeth does not mean people being burned alive link HERE.

We all do suffer from sin and Christ suffered the most and Jesus paid that penalty completely for everyone.

 

[This_person]

We all do suffer from sin and Christ suffered the most and Jesus paid that penalty completely for everyone.

Shortbus, when you discuss these things with people, and virtually everyone disagrees with you, showing you chapter and verse where you are wrong (not their teachings, but chapter and verse), and actual biblical scholars disagree with you (not "church/orthodox" scholars, but biblical scholars), why do you think you're more qualified to interpret what you're reading than EVERYONE else?

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

Shortbus,

It has been brought to my attention that some people on this Forum do mis-use this school bus for children shortbus as one of their symbols to degrade others.

So just for the record I tell that I see nothing wrong with the short-bus and I never ever mean anything dirty or hateful when I use it, as other do.

I am not one of that group, thank God.

when you discuss these things with people, and virtually everyone disagrees with you, showing you chapter and verse where you are wrong (not their teachings, but chapter and verse), and actual biblical scholars disagree with you (not "church/orthodox" scholars, but biblical scholars), why do you think you're more qualified to interpret what you're reading than EVERYONE else?

"Everyone" does not disagree with me as the very first post on this thread shows a Bishop and his entire Church group agrees with me on this one point that everybody does get saved as in the Gospel of Inclusion.

Plus I am the one that has given the Bible text and links to prove it correct.

And when I am right as this time - then it matters not if "everyone" else were wrong.

 

[PsyOps]

That is a worldly opinion of yours and of others but the Bible says that God gives unconditional love.

That unconditional love means that His enemies do not have any conditions to accept or not to accept because the "gift" of God is "eternal life" and not eternal torture link HERE.

You gave us a verse that proves my point and disproves yours. The gift of God is THROUGH CHRIST JESUS. So there are conditions; but not to His love, but to his salvation. I would like you to show me where it says that there are no conditions in obtaining salvation. And because someone decides to condemn themselves to eternal damnation by rejecting God doesn’t mean God doesn’t love that person. God still loves them and is reaching out to them. It is us (man) that places conditions on our love for God. So because someone is condemned to the lake of fire does not mean God didn’t love them; it is because they didn’t love God.

The weeping and knashing of teeth does not mean people being burned alive.

First of all, you seem to not be able to separate the difference between what God commands us to do on this earth and the judgment God will impose on us in the last days. The verse you provided refers to how He commands us to treat each other on this earth. It does not apply to God’s judgment and your twisting this in to a love/hate comparison.

But… You believe they are gleefully swimming in the lake fire? This weeping is weeping for joy and the ‘G’NASHING of teeth is just one big tooth-shining grin? No! It means they are suffering. None of us can understand what this suffering truly is since we have not been there. I can only deduce from The Word that it is a place of complete suffering and pain and anguish; a place I don’t want to go.

We all do suffer from sin and Christ suffered the most and Jesus paid that penalty completely for everyone.

You are right here. We do suffer from our sins. Then, those that who don’t accept Christ will suffer the ultimate price in hell.

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

Then, those that who don’t accept Christ will suffer the ultimate price in hell.

It is okay by me if you believe different then I believe and I am not really trying to convert you or anyone else to my way.

My point of telling this is because I believe there are people out there that want to know more and so I feel I must make it known.

I have been reading some Freud book called "The future of Illusion" link HERE and he says the population needs those kind of beliefs to tolerate the injustices of this world.

That even implies that my not having that belief might be why I push and make demands for justice in the here and now.

 

[Giantone]

It is okay by me if you believe different then I believe and I am not really trying to convert you or anyone else to my way.

My point of telling this is because I believe there are people out there that want to know more and so I feel I must make it known.

I have been reading some Freud book called "The future of Illusion" link HERE and he says the population needs those kind of beliefs to tolerate the injustices of this world.

That even implies that my not having that belief might be why I push and make demands for justice in the here and now.

You're an idiot.

 

[hvp05]

Plus I am the one that has given the Bible text and links to prove it correct.

You have repeatedly used the same 3 or 4 quotes, whereas PsyOps [and others] has used multiple different quotes. In his post you were referencing above, he provided 6 quotes - all of which you conveniently ignored and kept right on . So obviously, providing or reading pertinent quotes means nothing to you.

It is okay by me if you believe different then I believe and I am not really trying to convert you or anyone else to my way.

That would require the precondition that a given person be a sociopath, which despite your call of, "The need is now for more sociopaths and not less," we have not seen swarms of people running to join you - thankfully.

 

[PsyOps]

I have been reading some Freud book called "The future of Illusion" link HERE and he says the population needs those kind of beliefs to tolerate the injustices of this world.

Funny you picked Freud; this explains a lot. "The Future of an Illusion" is Freud's attempt (in part) to explain why humans resort to religion and such belief is an illusion, rather than religion being an actual act of faith in a real God. It was an attempt to dispel the reality of a real God and promote the fact that religion is nothing more than a fabricated part of our psyche as an explanation for a nature that is mostly a traumatic experience and as a fabricated explanation of the conflicts between nature and culture. Freud believed God is nothing more than a human invention.

That even implies that my not having that belief might be why I push and make demands for justice in the here and now.

I see nothing wrong in demanding justice. Even God demands that. Justice has to serve the greater man and not be simplified down to any specific individual. Justice isn't something applied to make YOUR life easier. Justice is to provide a protection to the masses.

 

[This_person]

"Everyone" does not disagree with me as the very first post on this thread shows a Bishop and his entire Church group agrees with me on this one point that everybody does get saved as in the Gospel of Inclusion.

That's why I said "virtually everyone", not everyone. Obviously there can be more than one wrong person, but that doesn't stop them from being wrong

Plus I am the one that has given the Bible text and links to prove it correct.

And, you've been shown verse after verse after verse after verse after verse after verse to show you are wrong, and that you're taking the quotes that "prove" you correct out of context and thus improperly interpretting them.

Why do you not see that?

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

Funny you picked Freud; this explains a lot. "The Future of an Illusion" is Freud's attempt (in part) to explain why humans resort to religion and such belief is an illusion, rather than religion being an actual act of faith in a real God. It was an attempt to dispel the reality of a real God and promote the fact that religion is nothing more than a fabricated part of our psyche as an explanation for a nature that is mostly a traumatic experience and as a fabricated explanation of the conflicts between nature and culture. Freud believed God is nothing more than a human invention.

That one part of the book was okay but after I read the rest of that book it is like you say and Freud is a fraud.

He started off with sound sensible words then turned it into crud.

I see nothing wrong in demanding justice. Even God demands that. Justice has to serve the greater man and not be simplified down to any specific individual. Justice isn't something applied to make YOUR life easier. Justice is to provide a protection to the masses.

Our US Constitution is based on individual rights (justice) and to protect the minority (of even one) from the unjust demands of the majority.

Providing justice to the masses over the individual is what oppression and tyranny are based on.

 

[JPC sr]

The truth will set us all free.

Why do you not see that?

Because I am right and everybody else is wrong.