Gospel of Inclusion.

[Marie]

All of that will happen after death on Judgement Day link HERE.

On Judgement day everything will work out fine, and everyone will get saved at that time.

It sounds like a second chance but really it is a first chance because most people are just lost sheep and only on Judgement Day will they actually believe because then they will see and hear the truth without confusion.

I recomened studying Genesis, Abraham had faith and therefore believed Gods promises. He didnt need proof before he obeyed. By the way he came from a family of Idol worshippers.

[SIZE=+2]"W[/SIZE]ithout faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that be is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Heb. 11:6). It is a requirement, not just a suggestion, that we have faith! If we are to please God, we must believe that He is - that He exists and is the Creator of all things and the One who rewards those who diligently seek Him.

After Thomas personally saw Jesus miraculously appear in a room where he and other apostles were assembled. behind closed doors, and was able to feel with his own hands the holes that were pierced in Jesus hands and side, only then did he believe. Jesus replied "Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed (Jn. 20:29).

The writer of Hebrews wrote, "Now faith is the substance [realization] of things hoped for, the evidence [confidence] of things not seen" (11:1). In other words, faith is truly believing in and being fully confident of the things God promises. That's how we have to go to God, believing all things.

Not making them up as we go!

Christ gave us the model. If Christ isnt your lord he isnt your savior.
Listen to the sermon, Wide is the way and narrow is the gate.
Matthew 7:21-23:
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:15-16

"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." Mark 4:23 Those goats that have ears that cannot hear are condemned already. Only God's children can hear His voice, and only His sheep can and do respond.

 

[Marie]

All of that will happen after death on Judgement Day link HERE.

On Judgement day everything will work out fine, and everyone will get saved at that time.

It sounds like a second chance but really it is a first chance because most people are just lost sheep and only on Judgement Day will they actually believe because then they will see and hear the truth without confusion.

So explain the unpardonable sin, denouncing the Holy Ghost which is excatly what your theory does. If the sin is unpardonable, and the wages of sin are death???

 

[PsyOps]

I take it one step forward and thats to allow him lordship to your life complete surrender. Thats the hardest part!

Anything else is an attempt to salvation on our terms and is no salvation at all.
We are to evaluate ourselves on a regular basis
Check this out
By John Mcauthur

http://home.md.metrocast.net/coiac/Dale.mp3

One step at a time with this guy. One step at a time.

 

[PsyOps]

All of that will happen after death on Judgement Day link HERE.

On Judgement day everything will work out fine, and everyone will get saved at that time.

It sounds like a second chance but really it is a first chance because most people are just lost sheep and only on Judgement Day will they actually believe because then they will see and hear the truth without confusion.

This belief makes everything Jesus did a waste of time. In fact, given your take, Jesus wasn't even necessary to have come to this earth. If God was going to let us into heaven anyway, why would we need Jesus?

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

So explain the unpardonable sin, denouncing the Holy Ghost which is excatly what your theory does.

The unpardonable sin link HERE may not be forgiven but not forgiven does not mean punishment because Jesus paid the full punishment completely.

I do not like the idea of blanket forgiveness anyway, because I do not even forgive myself for my own pass sins even after I have repented of the sins big time, so I see no logic in forgiveness for most cases.

I can see forgiving mistakes and forgiving accidents, forgiving stupidity and ignorance, as we can do those, but other then those there is no real need to forgive any sin at all since the punishment is paid in full for everyone.

The cross paid the penalty for all sin but it does not forgive nor forget and I do not see why anyone wants forgiveness anyway.

By repenting and making amends we cover over the sin and replace wrongdoing with the rightness, so forgiveness is only needed for the sins made out of ignorance.

If the sin is unpardonable, and the wages of sin are death???

It clearly says that "death" does NOT mean "eternal life" link it HERE.

So if sin means death then that is not eternal life in Hell.

First people die to sin - then - life eternal.

No conditions and the punishment has already been paid in full.

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

This belief makes everything Jesus did a waste of time. In fact, given your take, Jesus wasn't even necessary to have come to this earth. If God was going to let us into heaven anyway, why would we need Jesus?

It is Jesus that needs us.

We are the children of God and we are very important indeed.

Each and every person is a valuable asset to God and not even one will be lost or forgotten.

John 3:16 KJV:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

On Judgement Day then everyone will believe and not even one rotten soul will be lost.

 

[PsyOps]

It is Jesus that needs us.

Once again you prove how lost you are; how backwards your thinking is. Jesus DOES NOT need us. We need Jesus. But since you believe this perhaps you could explain how it is Jesus needs us?

We are the children of God and we are very important indeed.

Each and every person is a valuable asset to God and not even one will be lost or forgotten.

I haven’t said one thing about how important or unimportant we are. But even John the Baptist said “Produce good fruits as evidence of your repentance; and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these stones.” In other words, you have to DO SOMETHING to become children of God. By merely being a human does not earn your way into heaven.

John 3:16 KJV:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You provided a verse disproves your point: “THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH SHALL NOT PERSIH…” Meaning that if you do not BELIEVE you WILL perish. You have to DO SOMETHING. BELIEVE. You have to make that choice. I am amazed that you don’t see this right in the very verse you provided.

On Judgement Day then everyone will believe and not even one rotten soul will be lost.

If everyone is saved there is no reason to even have a Judgment Day. What is God to judge us by if we are already saved and going to heaven?

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

I recomened studying Genesis, Abraham had faith and therefore believed Gods promises. He didnt need proof before he obeyed. By the way he came from a family of Idol worshippers.

[SIZE=+2]"W[/SIZE]ithout faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that be is the rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Heb. 11:6). It is a requirement, not just a suggestion, that we have faith! If we are to please God, we must believe that He is - that He exists and is the Creator of all things and the One who rewards those who diligently seek Him.

After Thomas personally saw Jesus miraculously appear in a room where he and other apostles were assembled. behind closed doors, and was able to feel with his own hands the holes that were pierced in Jesus hands and side, only then did he believe. Jesus replied "Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed (Jn. 20:29).

The writer of Hebrews wrote, "Now faith is the substance [realization] of things hoped for, the evidence [confidence] of things not seen" (11:1). In other words, faith is truly believing in and being fully confident of the things God promises. That's how we have to go to God, believing all things.

Not making them up as we go!

Christ gave us the model. If Christ isnt your lord he isnt your savior.
Listen to the sermon, Wide is the way and narrow is the gate.
Matthew 7:21-23:
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matt 13:15-16

"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." Mark 4:23 Those goats that have ears that cannot hear are condemned already. Only God's children can hear His voice, and only His sheep can and do respond.

The confusion is because God and the Bible are refering to two (2) different subjects.

First is the life here and now on earth and the punishment is here and now on earth link it HERE.

The punishments come here and now and not after dying.

Jesus and the Bible is telling us how to live in faith and rightness in this world here and now.

While you are presenting those verses as if they apply after death and they do not.

The war is now in this life and not after death.

 

[PsyOps]

The confusion is because God and the Bible are refering to two (2) different subjects.

First is the life here and now on earth and the punishment is here and now on earth link it HERE.

The punishments come here and now and not after dying.

Jesus and the Bible is telling us how to live in faith and rightness in this world here and now.

While you are presenting those verses as if they apply after death and they do not.

The war is now in this life and not after death.

I’m trying to figure something out . If all we have to do to be saved is be born a human, why did God feel a need to send a Savior to save us? What’s the point?

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

I’m trying to figure something out . If all we have to do to be saved is be born a human, why did God feel a need to send a Savior to save us? What’s the point?

The word "Savior" is a term mostly used to say God as savior and not Jesus, and "savior" is mostly found in the Old Testiment text being for David or some prophets being "saved" from their physical enemies link HERE.

The word "savior" is not even found in the King James version but it was put into newer versions like the NIV to satisfy the beliefs of Orthodoxy.

Jesus is called "Christ" (the Christ) or "Messiah" meaning the "annointed one" and calling Jesus the "Savior" is not really a Bible term.

When Jesus came He changed the course of humanity because people were headed down an evil and destructive way with the Roman Empire taking over from the Greek Hellenism and subsequently by the process started by Christ the entire world would eventually change its direction so I still see it as fair to say that Jesus was the "savior" of this world but that was in a physical and very real sense of "saving" and not some mystical salvation that only happens after people die.

People do still need "saved" today but not to be saved from the mystical "Hell". People need saved from addictions, and saved from ignorance, and saved from injustices, and violence, etc. People need saved now in this present wicked life time and not after they die.

 

[PsyOps]

The word "Savior" is a term mostly used to say God as savior and not Jesus, and "savior" is mostly found in the Old Testiment text being for David or some prophets being "saved" from their physical enemies link HERE.

God is often referred to as the savior, so you are partly right and partly wrong. It is actually both.

“For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord.” … Luke 2:11

The word "savior" is not even found in the King James version but it was put into newer versions like the NIV to satisfy the beliefs of Orthodoxy.

Jesus is called "Christ" (the Christ) or "Messiah" meaning the "annointed one" and calling Jesus the "Savior" is not really a Bible term.

Definitely Wrong!

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.… Luke 2:11 (KJV)

And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world… John 4:42 (KJV)

Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins… Acts 5:31 (KJV)

Of this man's seed hath God according to [his] promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus… Acts 13:23 (KJV)

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body… Eph 5:23 (KJV)

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ… Phil 3:20 (KJV)

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel… 2 Tim 1:10 (KJV)

To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour… Titus 1:4

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ… Titus 2:13 (KJV)

Do you need more verses to convince you?

When Jesus came He changed the course of humanity because people were headed down an evil and destructive way with the Roman Empire taking over from the Greek Hellenism and subsequently by the process started by Christ the entire world would eventually change its direction so I still see it as fair to say that Jesus was the "savior" of this world but that was in a physical and very real sense of "saving" and not some mystical salvation that only happens after people die.

Wrong again!

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God… John 3:5 (KJV)

People do still need "saved" today but not to be saved from the mystical "Hell". People need saved from addictions, and saved from ignorance, and saved from injustices, and violence, etc. People need saved now in this present wicked life time and not after they die.

Christ came to witness about what we will be given AFTER WE DIE. He explained what we needed to do to get into heaven, not what we need to do to avoid pain on this earth. If that was the case He would have never said:

… If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me… Mat 16:24 (KJV)

He warned his disciples this:

Remember the word I spoke to you, 'No slave is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. And they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me… John 15:20-21

I have known many devout Christians that suffered and died from cancer and other diseases. How do you account for this? Answer… They receive their reward in heaven, not on this earth. Christians don’t seek peace and safety and reward on this earth. They seek eternal life in heaven:

Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude and insult you, and denounce your name as evil on account of the Son of Man. Rejoice and leap for joy on that day! Behold, your reward will be great in heaven. For their ancestors treated the prophets in the same way… Luke 6:22-23

Psalm 23 says: “The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want…” In other words, we do not have wants and desires of this earth, we want what is of God. So receiving salvation has nothing to do with being saved from horrible things on this earth.

Jesus told the rich man:

Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, "You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" ... Mark 10:21

God does not want us to look towards reward and be saved from pain and anguish on this earth. He wants to us to desire these things in heaven.

 

[Marie]

The word "Savior" is a term mostly used to say God as savior and not Jesus, and "savior" is mostly found in the Old Testiment text being for David or some prophets being "saved" from their physical enemies link HERE.

Yo James, As PsyOps pointed out, it is in the 1611 King James version Strongs # G4990 is used 24 times, of which all are in the New Testament.
Also its in the orignal Greek, I looked Σωτήρ, Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός
sōtēr
so-tare'
From G4982; a deliverer, that is, God or Christ: - saviour.
In case that dosent suit in the Aramaic the word savior is used as well!

your refrence that you referred to is Strongs # H3467 used 15 times in the old testament
ישׁע
yâsha‛
yaw-shah'
A primitive root; properly to be open, wide or free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor: - X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory.

You missed Bible study Thursday night, and it's ashame to, as we studied Biblical hermeneutics and how FALSE teachers use "twisted scripture."
Context, context context!
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT
NO, WE AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT
OH WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE


LoL

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

God is often referred to as the savior, so you are partly right and partly wrong. It is actually both.


God does not want us to look towards reward and be saved from pain and anguish on this earth. He wants to us to desire these things in heaven.

Okay, I freely admit that I was mistaken about the word "Savior" being in the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible.

I had looked up "savior" in the online concordance and I never even thought about the old english wording and spelling so it is spelled with a "u" as "Saviour" in the KJV.

So this was my error and I did it.

But of course, my particular point that Jesus came to save mankind in the here and now on earth is still true and correct, and it was not directed at saving people from some "pits of a Hell" after people die.

I was wrong on the first part but the latter part was correct.

 

[Marie]

But of course, my particular point that Jesus came to save mankind in the here and now on earth

Thats absurd, Show me that verse or anything close, you wont find it.

Lets start at the begining
BIBLE=Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth

Salvation
H3444 is used 65 times and ONLY in the old testament!
ישׁוּעה
y<SUP>eshû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.

H3467 only used twice and in the old testament!
ישׁע
yâsha‛
yaw-shah'
A primitive root; properly to be open, wide or free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor: - X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory.

H3468 Used 31 times and only in the old testament!
ישׁע ישׁע
yesha‛ yêsha‛
yeh'-shah, yay'-shah
From H3467; liberty, deliverance, prosperity: - safety, salvation, saving.
G4991 used 41 times and only in the New testament
σωτηρία
sōtēria
so-tay-ree'-ah
Feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

G4992 used 5 times only in the new Testament!
σωτήριον
sōtērion
so-tay'-ree-on
Neuter of the same as G4991 as (properly concrete) noun; defender or (by implication) defence: - salvation.
</SUP>

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

Thats absurd, Show me that verse or anything close, you wont find it.

Lets start at the begining
BIBLE=Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth

Salvation

I am not saying that there is no salvation because everybody does get saved in the end.

But Jesus and the Bible teach us how to live now (saved now) from the wickedness of this world now.

Jesus gave the example in wearing a crown of thorns in defying this wicked world.

Here is a text from the old Testement 2 Samuel 22:3 link HERE which says :

"3 my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge,
my shield and the horn [a] of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior—
from violent men you save me."

So note that it says "salvation" and "savior" from violence happening here on earth in that present time.

And a New Testiment text 1 Timothy 4:9-11 link HERE which says:

"9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach."

And see it says "Saviour of all men" all mankind (means male and female) and then "specially those that believe" because those that believe get saved here and now from the wickedness of this world and not after death.

Salvation is easy after death because Jesus paid the penalty in full, but for here and now we have works to do.

Faith without works is dead, link.

 

[Marie]

I am not saying that there is no salvation because everybody does get saved in the end.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
In general you tend to gravitate to the Old Testament and reject the New Testament where the gospel resides.<o></o>
Why did Christ come to earth as a man? He had been here numerous times before in the Old Testament. Just to teach us to play nice? <o></o>
<o></o>
Mat 6:33 but seek ye first the reign of God and His righteousness, and all these shall be added to you. <o></o>
Luk 12:29 `And ye--seek not what ye may eat, or what ye may drink, and be not in suspense, <o></o>
Luk 12:30 for all these things do the nations of the world seeks after, and your Father hath known that ye have need of these things; <o></o>
Luk 12:31 but, seek ye the reign of God, and all these things shall be added to you. <o></o>
Here are two verses that say not to be concerned of the necessities of life but to have your thoughts on eternal matters!<o></o>
<o></o>
How about these verses<o></o>
<o></o>
Mar 4:18 "And these are the [seeds] having been sown into the thorns: the ones hearing the word, <o></o>
Mar 4:19 and the anxieties [or, cares] of this age [fig, the present life] and the deception of riches and the desires [or, lusts] concerning the remaining [things] entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. <o></o>
<o></o>
Those deliberately teaching a false Gospel will be punished (cf. Gal. 1:9; Mt. 23:16, 33!; 2 Tim.4:3-4, etc.). <o></o>
<o></o>
Gal 1:6 I marvel [or, am amazed] that you* are so quickly turning away [or, apostatizing] from the One having called you* in [or, by] the grace of Christ to a different gospel, <o></o>
Gal 1:7 which is not another [Gospel], except there are some, the ones having disturbed you* and desiring to distort the Gospel of Christ. <o></o>
Gal 1:8 _But_ even if we or an angel out of heaven shall himself be proclaiming a gospel to you* besides [or, contrary to] what we proclaimed to you*, let him be accursed [Gr., anathema]! <o></o>
Gal 1:9 As we have forewarned and now say again, if anyone shall be proclaiming a gospel to you* besides [or, contrary to] what you* received, let him be accursed! <o></o>
<o></o>
Mat 23:14 "How horrible it will be to you*, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you* shut off the kingdom of the heavens before the people, for _you*_ do not enter, nor do You* allow the ones entering to enter. <o></o>
Mat 23:15 "How horrible it will be to you*, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you* travel over the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte [or, convert to Judaism], and whenever it happens, you* make him twice as much a son of hell [Gr., gehenna] [as] you* [are]. <o></o>
<o></o>
2Ti 4:3 For there will be a time when they themselves will not put up with sound teaching, _but_ according to their own lusts they will heap up teachers to themselves, itching in the ear [fig., craving to hear what they want to hear], <o></o>
2Ti 4:4 and on the one hand they will turn away the ear from the truth, on the other hand they will be turned aside to myths. <o></o>
<o></o>
1Co 2:6 But we speak wisdom among the perfect [or, mature], but wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, the ones being destroyed. <o></o>
<o></o>
1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned; <o></o>
<o></o>
James you’re a smart guy, but a lot like a blind man yielding a sword. (Dangerous to yourself and others!) You can put your trust in Herbert W Armstrong, or believe a heart that is deceitfully wicked, but having knowledge of the condition of the human heart, its more prudent to examine yourself. <o></o>
Unpack that Bible, blow the dust off of it, and pray that God will open your eyes to his word, and have at it. Its possible to read scripture and not get much out of it. But if you come at it prayerfully seeking Gods will, It will speak to you!

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

In general you tend to gravitate to the Old Testament and reject the New Testament where the gospel resides.

Why did Christ come to earth as a man? He had been here numerous times before in the Old Testament. Just to teach us to play nice?


Mat 6:33 but seek ye first the reign of God and His righteousness, and all these shall be added to you. <o></o>
Luk 12:29 `And ye--seek not what ye may eat, or what ye may drink, and be not in suspense, <o></o>
Luk 12:30 for all these things do the nations of the world seeks after, and your Father hath known that ye have need of these things; <o></o>
Luk 12:31 but, seek ye the reign of God, and all these things shall be added to you. <o></o>
Here are two verses that say not to be concerned of the necessities of life but to have your thoughts on eternal matters!<o></o>
<o></o>
How about these verses<o></o>
<o></o>
Mar 4:18 "And these are the [seeds] having been sown into the thorns: the ones hearing the word, <o></o>
Mar 4:19 and the anxieties [or, cares] of this age [fig, the present life] and the deception of riches and the desires [or, lusts] concerning the remaining [things] entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. <o></o>
<o></o>
Those deliberately teaching a false Gospel will be punished (cf. Gal. 1:9; Mt. 23:16, 33!; 2 Tim.4:3-4, etc.). <o></o>


James you’re a smart guy, but a lot like a blind man yielding a sword. (Dangerous to yourself and others!)

It seems to me that the difference here between what I am saying compared to you and Orthodoxy is that you can pray and be saved and then God will give you (Christians) the works thereafter, but I am saying that we must do the works of salvation first or else the value of being "saved" is greatly deminished.

 

[Marie]

It seems to me that the difference here between what I am saying compared to you and Orthodoxy is that you can pray and be saved and then God will give you (Christians) the works thereafter, but I am saying that we must do the works of salvation first or else the value of being "saved" is greatly deminished.

Thats called works based rightousness, and is practiced by one group of Christians.

Isa 64:6 But we are al as an vncleane thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy ragges, and we all doe fade as a leafe, and our iniquities like the wind haue taken vs away.

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

Thats called works based rightousness, and is practiced by one group of Christians.

Isa 64:6 But we are al as an vncleane thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy ragges, and we all doe fade as a leafe, and our iniquities like the wind haue taken vs away.

That is just twisting things around into a confusing mess,

and that is not correct.

My previous post told it the right way.

 

[JPC sr]

The big pic.

Thats called works based rightousness, and is practiced by one group of Christians.

I say "Marie" might have it right here above.

That one group is the real Christians, because they do the righteous works.

There is no other righteousness without works.

Claiming one as righteous because Jesus paid the price but the one has no righteous works then that claim is not true.

One does not need to do evil or do wrong but just do nothing and therefore no right works and that is not a follower of Christ.

Such a one will be saved in the end, but that one without works is absolutely worthless in this world.