Bruzilla said:
Did I say that everyone was a bigot? Please show me where I said that. If you think that's the case then I would say you're imposing that title on yourself. The truth though is that a lot of this is about bigotry. Once you cut through all the legal BS, and the lack of work BS, and the terrorism BS, and the slave labor BS, etc., etc., etc., you end up with what's really at the root of this for some people, and that's just basic bigotry. Look at the post that started this thread for example. There were people upset about other people marching around and protesting while carrying Mexican flags. It wasn't about terrorists or taxes, it was about behavior that some consider "un-American."
You know, that's why I'm having such a hard time discussing this with you on this thread - you keep 'projecting'. People TELL you why they think what they think, and you keep telling them the REAL reason. "Did I say everyone was a bigot?" "The truth though is that a lot of this is about bigotry" "Bigotry is driving this issue...". You're calling them bigots. No matter how many aspects of this issue get brought up, you're sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "blah-blah-blah, just admit it, you're all a bunch of racists". What a load of crap. A hefty portion of my family are Latinos, my best man and best friend is Latino. You could no more call me bigoted against Hispanics than you could call me 'short'.
Yes, you're saying that the folks who disagree with you on this issue are doing so out of bigotry. Nonsense. If a hundred homeless black folk decided that your front lawn was now their new home, would you be bigoted if you told them to get the hell of their property? No doubt someone would USE that - but it's masking the issue. Hell, it's dodging the issue.
People have been p!ssed over this issue for YEARS. They're just ventilating now because for once, the folks on the Hill are actually TALKING about it. What you're hearing is a lot of pent-up frustration. It's like all the anti-American demonstrations prior to the war - if you heard the people talking, you'd realize they were griping about things that had gone on LONG before Bush was even governor of Texas - it was more than just the war.
Bruzilla said:
Do you really think that deep in their heart of hearts there aren't a lot of people who are up in arms about illegal immigration because they are upset that they can't buy an item in a grocery store today that doesn't have English and Spanish titling on it? Upset because everyday they see more and more Hispanics walking their streets? Upset because they have this mentality and fear that we're going to lose our sacred American identity to a bunch of Mexicans? Upset because our current culture is going to be taken over by Mexicans?
See, this is where I think maybe you need to drink your morning coffee before you post, because people by and large aren't saying any of this. You're putting words in their mouth. I admit, I am a little annoyed by the bilingualism, but it's been around for at least twenty years. I know this, because my little brother - who is married to an Hispanic - has been learning this since he got married twenty years ago. Why is it that "Spanish" gets singled out for such special treatment? How come it gets special treatment, but Italians, Poles etc. got along just fine? Why do they have such resistance to adapting to the language, but persons from all over the globe - from elsewhere - don't seem to have as big a problem with it?
Bruzilla said:
Yes, but you're also not listening either - which means, you're not going to see it if you are wrong.
Bruzilla said:
I could always be wrong... but I don't see many posts on here raving about the thousands of illegal immigrants who arrive each year from China, Pakistan, India, Lebanon, Haiti, Cuba, etc.
It's numbers. In Boston, I once read the numbers of Irish illegals number in the tens of thousands. But we get as many as a million illegals or more each year from Mexico alone. *Millions*. And if you're governor of California, Texas or Arizona, it's a big problem to you (for some reason, illegals aren't going to New Mexico). And Mexicans comprise the largest portion of Hispanics, by a very wide margin. I'm sure there are illegal Canadians here, but they're not demanding we do everything in French and wave the maple leaf around.
Bruzilla said:
Sure, some will read my last statement and proudly say "well, I happen to be against all illegal imigrants!!!", but the sad truth is that the thread histories don't bear out that truth. It wasn't until there was a demonstration under Mexican flags that this thread started, and I think a check of most threads on the topic refers to Mexicans and Hispanics, rarely to anyone else.
Two things - and part of it has to do with that it looks like you're just as emotionally attached to this issue as anyone else - and the first is, not everyone who disagrees with you on this subject is all in the same camp, derives their opinions from the same philosophy. It is not logical to assume that all who oppose your viewpoint are necessarily in agreement with each other. That's never the case, but people do it all the time.
The second is something you're not seeing - you're projecting your own interpretation of what people are saying and assigning 'bigotry' when there are other factors involved. It's like calling something cancer when it might just be indigestion - just because it looks bad, it might be a lot simpler.
It's generally my approach to assume the very LEAST amount of malice to someone who disagrees with me. In some of this, it seems like a lot of insults to Americans.
Personally, I think they need to go "to the back of the line" and wait their damned turn. There are people in Pakistan and Iraq and Nigeria and Vietname and China and so on, waiting in INCREDIBLY long lines patiently for their chance to legitimately come to this country. It is unfair to THEM to have to wait behind someone who crossed here illegally, forged fake ID's, dodged taxes, possibly collected benefits - and then cry "foul!" when they were caught.
Personally - I think the terrorism aspect DOES have great merit - and people have a completely legitimate concern - not about "illegals" but about a policy which leaves the back door wide open. You can't hope to keep the country secure from terrorists when you're unwilling to keep tabs on who is entering the country. When it becomes some kind of violation of civil rights to tell people they can't come in here unless they have proper authorization, we might as well put out the door mat for al-Qaeda, because there's just no point.
Let's dispel the idea that this is about Mexicans - it's about all illegals. And let's use the term "illegals" because they are here illegally - you can no more call them "undocumented immigrants" than you can call a burglar an "uninvited guest". I'll grant you that most of the illegals are in fact, Mexicans. I think the thing that griped me about the flag was that some were boasting far and wide about how wonderful and better the great nation of Mexico is. Well if it's so wonderful, why are people risking so much to come and stay here? I don't see throngs of immigrants fighting to go SOUTH of the border. I don't care if they think that - it just seemed insulting to pass judgment on ME.
(I've read up on this - and illegals aren't making slave wages. The median level is lower than your average American - but by far, most are making a LOT more than minimum wage.)
