Immigration Rallies Draw Thousands Nationwide

[vraiblonde]

I have a question:

Why would requiring guest workers to be documented result in higher prices? Why would they automatically get a raise just because they're here legally?



Nobody's saying they have to become American citizens - just that they are documented and legal. So what does that have to do with the price of lettuce?

Is it that huge of a burden to go down to your local immigration office and register for work?

 

[Pete]

...the unsuspecting prey steps into the trap.

Go ahead, take 10-20 million people out of the labor pool, the 5% unemployed labor pool. 3% in Maryland.

Try $20-30 dollars an hour. An extra $50-100 per man per day.Multiply that times how many tradesmen per house; 10? 20? So, add a bunch more to the tab.

Your assumptions are suspect. Every society has ditch diggers, what has happened is american ditch diggers have been underbid.

How many of your day laborers are you paying $30 an hour? Not your "right hand man" I am talking about the guy who pours dirt in the flower pots out back?

 

[Larry Gude]

As you've repeatedly refused to...

I'll pay extra for my lettuce if that is what it takes to close the "door".

Now you are talking like a guy with no common sense. You don't need to shoot people. Razor wire properly laid and stacked will deter all but the most determined. It is not likely that those trying to get in illegally will have Bangalore torpedoes.

The fence goes hand and hand with refusing services to illegals, controlling money sent out side U.S. borders, not automatically giving citizenship to children born to illegals while here in the U.S., fines and confiscation of property of illegals found here, fines and imprisonment of those that knowingly provide services and work for illegals.

Common sense. I guess on this subject, you have none.

...acknowledge the opposing point of view of any validity whatsoever, and now moved on to insults and an armed border to go with your police state, I have a question;

Does your stance in regards to illegal aliens reconcile with your faith?

The reason I ask is that you have stated in the past that God is first in your life, before Constitution (and law) and I can't picture Jesus instructing His disciples to put up fences and forcibly remove strangers who just want a better life. Nor can I imagine Him requiring documentation.

I don't get it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...the unsuspecting prey steps into the trap.

Go ahead, take 10-20 million people out of the labor pool, the 5% unemployed labor pool. 3% in Maryland.

Try $20-30 dollars an hour. An extra $50-100 per man per day.Multiply that times how many tradesmen per house; 10? 20? So, add a bunch more to the tab.

Are you still missing that if this legislation passes, the present illegals will be granted amnesty and offered citizenship? There will be no cheap labor force holding wages down whether we throw the illegals out or legalize them. You seem to keep missing that. The difference is with them legalized, you will have Hilary as the next President since there will be 10,000,000+ more Democratic voters.

 

[Larry Gude]

Well...

Your assumptions are suspect. Every society has ditch diggers, what has happened is american ditch diggers have been underbid.

How many of your day laborers are you paying $30 an hour? Not your "right hand man" I am talking about the guy who pours dirt in the flower pots out back?

...first off, I'm stunned you've taken the 2a route of suspecting peoples motives. Not what I'm used to from you.

I don't have or use day labors. The last time I did, they were $12.50 an hour from Ready Labor and were dirty, drunk and drugged and nearly useless.

My lowest paid person is $7 an hour. Highest is $18.50.

PS, my assumptions are not suspect nor are they assumptions. You know as well as I do if you remove the illegals from your dads equation the hourly rate will go through the roof, so to speak; Supply and demand.

I'm truly stunned you'd think I have an ulterior motive with my thoughts on this without stating so. If I had a dog in this fight, I'd have said so from the get go.

 

[2ndAmendment]

<p>

...acknowledge the opposing point of view of any validity whatsoever, and now moved on to insults and an armed border to go with your police state, I have a question; Does your stance in regards to illegal aliens reconcile with your faith? The reason I ask is that you have stated in the past that God is first in your life, before Constitution (and law) and I can't picture Jesus instructing His disciples to put up fences and forcibly remove strangers who just want a better life. Nor can I imagine Him requiring documentation. I don't get it.

Jesus obeyed the law and told those He spoke to to do the same.

</p>
<h4>Matthew 22:15-22
</h4>
<p>&nbsp;<span id="en-NASB-23888" class="sup">15</span>Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said.
</p>
<p>&nbsp;<span id="en-NASB-23889" class="sup">16</span>And they sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, "Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any.
</p>
<p>&nbsp;<span id="en-NASB-23890" class="sup">17</span>"Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?"
</p>
<p>&nbsp;<span id="en-NASB-23891" class="sup">18</span>But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, "Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?
</p>
<p>&nbsp;<span id="en-NASB-23892" class="sup">19</span>"Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius.
</p>
<p>&nbsp;<span id="en-NASB-23893" class="sup">20</span>And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?"
</p>
<p>&nbsp;<span id="en-NASB-23894" class="sup">21</span>They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."
</p>
<p>&nbsp;<span id="en-NASB-23895" class="sup">22</span>And hearing this, they were amazed, and leaving Him, they went away.<span style="font-weight: bold;">

</span>
</p>
So I want all immigrants to obey the law of the U.S. Come here legally or get thrown out.

 

[vraiblonde]

Are you still missing that if this legislation passes, the present illegals will be granted amnesty and offered citizenship?

This raises another question:

Do they HAVE to become citizens? I mean, what's wrong with them gaining LEGAL guest worker status, while remaining a citizen of their native country?

All I want is to have all immigrants documented. I don't really care what their legal citizenship is. And if they send most of their wages back to their country, that's fine with me as well. We're going to be giving them money anyway, thanks to Bush and that open checkbook of his - at least this way we're getting some labor out of the deal.

 

[2ndAmendment]

This raises another question:

Do they HAVE to become citizens? I mean, what's wrong with them gaining LEGAL guest worker status, while remaining a citizen of their native country?

All I want is to have all immigrants documented. I don't really care what their legal citizenship is. And if they send most of their wages back to their country, that's fine with me as well. We're going to be giving them money anyway, thanks to Bush and that open checkbook of his - at least this way we're getting some labor out of the deal.

But the current legislation states that they will be offered citizenship.

kennedys

 

[Larry Gude]

What does the legislation...

Are you still missing that if this legislation passes, the present illegals will be granted amnesty and offered citizenship? There will be no cheap labor force holding wages down whether we throw the illegals out or legalize them. You seem to keep missing that. The difference is with them legalized, you will have Hilary as the next President since there will be 10,000,000+ more Democratic voters.

...have to do with your views? Do you support the legislation?

I typed the words...I have NOTHING to do with this legislation. I am not writing for action. I am not jumping up and down for action. There is a complete disconnet in trying to tie me to this legislation.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...first off, I'm stunned you've taken the 2a route of suspecting peoples motives. Not what I'm used to from you.
...

And I am surprised at you for not seeing that lack of border enforcement is a bad thing. Cheap labor, even though it is an illusion now with the proposed legislation, is not a reason to not protect our borders from people crossing them without proper authorization.

 

[vraiblonde]

But the current legislation states that they will be offered citizenship.

I have no problem with that. Practically everyone who comes here from a foreign country can obtain citizenship - people do it every day.

If they become citizens, they will be documented with valid SSNs and be in the system just like the rest of us. If they don't become citizens, they should still have guest worker papers on file.

 

[Pete]

...acknowledge the opposing point of view of any validity whatsoever, and now moved on to insults and an armed border to go with your police state, I have a question;

Does your stance in regards to illegal aliens reconcile with your faith?

The reason I ask is that you have stated in the past that God is first in your life, before Constitution (and law) and I can't picture Jesus instructing His disciples to put up fences and forcibly remove strangers who just want a better life. Nor can I imagine Him requiring documentation.

I don't get it.

I know this was not intended for me but allow me to give my take.

I not being religious don't care what God would want so I default to the constitution. We have an entire class of middle and lower income American artisans, craftsmen and ditch diggers who are unable to compete because of an unfair advantage and illegal swarm of people who do not obey our laws. Not only did they come here illegally, they do not obey our tax and labor laws. The government has a RESPONSIBILITY to protect American craftsman, artisans, ditch diggers, backhoe drivers, nursery workers and poinsettia growers who all rise in the morning, work hard, and retire in the evening everyday in accordance with the laws of this country from illegal persons who have a significant advantage because they do not.

IF our labor, tax and immigration laws have a clause that say "unless it makes lettuce cheaper" I have never seen it.

 

[Larry Gude]

That is clear...

<p> Jesus obeyed the law and told those He spoke to to do the same.</span>
</p>
So I want all immigrants to obey the law of the U.S. Come here legally or get thrown out.

...enough for me.

You say Jesus would throw them out. I say he would not.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...have to do with your views? Do you support the legislation?

I typed the words...I have NOTHING to do with this legislation. I am not writing for action. I am not jumping up and down for action. There is a complete disconnet in trying to tie me to this legislation.

You miss the point that the legislation mirrors your point of view of letting the illegals stay. It does go farther. It not only makes the illegals legal, but it has the potential to make them citizens. You lose your cheap labor. I am not saying you hire illegals, but you are arguing that illegals keep wages lower in general.

I do not support the Spector bill. There is a bill I do support that makes being in the U.S. illegally a criminal act and also makes it a criminal act to knowing help or hire an illegal, but it was not passed out of committee.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

I know this was not intended for me but allow me to give my take.

I not being religious don't care what God would want so I default to the constitution. We have an entire class of middle and lower income American artisans, craftsmen and ditch diggers who are unable to compete because of an unfair advantage and illegal swarm of people who do not obey our laws. Not only did they come here illegally, they do not obey our tax and labor laws. The government has a RESPONSIBILITY to protect American craftsman, artisans, ditch diggers, backhoe drivers, nursery workers and poinsettia growers who all rise in the morning, work hard, and retire in the evening everyday in accordance with the laws of this country from illegal persons who have a significant advantage because they do not.

IF our labor, tax and immigration laws have a clause that say "unless it makes lettuce cheaper" I have never seen it.

...point made.

So, we attack the symptom, the illegals, who are working.

Not the problem, those not doing their jobs, not working.

I don't get it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

<p>

...enough for me. You say Jesus would throw them out. I say he would not.

He threw the money changers and vendors out of the temple physically.
</p>

<h4>Matthew 21:12-13
</h4>
<p>&nbsp;<span id="en-NASB-23839" class="sup">12</span>And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. </p>
<p>&nbsp;<span id="en-NASB-23840" class="sup">13</span>And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN." </p>

 

[Larry Gude]

I would be missing the point...

You miss the point that the legislation mirrors your point of view of letting the illegals stay. It does go farther. It not only makes the illegals legal, but it has the potential to make them citizens. You lose your cheap labor. I am not saying you hire illegals, but you are arguing that illegals keep wages lower in general.

I do not support the Spector bill. There is a bill I do support that makes being in the U.S. illegally a criminal act and also makes it a criminal act to knowing help or hire an illegal, but it was not passed out of committee.

...if I had anything to do with the legislation. Y'all woke this dog and now you are actually trying to blame it on me that it turned on you.

but you are arguing that illegals keep wages lower in general.

I could give a CRAP about wages. I pay the highest wages, in every category, in my industry, for my size, and in some areas, for ANY size.

Congress and Presidents screwed this pooch LONG ago and I've been #####ing about it for over 10 years. Now, we have what we have.

Go ahead. Spend billions on the problem, put up fences and shoot people but if huge numbers of people end up leaving/kicked out it will have a profound negative affect on our economy. We didn't get here overnight. We should not fix it over night.

Markets demand steadyness to function properly. Not convulsions.

 

[Larry Gude]

I'm enjoying the tussle here...

...but I gotta get back to work, right now. INS just showed up and all my slaves headed for the hills, so, now I have to do everything.


THANKS


Be back later...

 

[Pete]

...first off, I'm stunned you've taken the 2a route of suspecting peoples motives. Not what I'm used to from you.

I don't have or use day labors. The last time I did, they were $12.50 an hour from Ready Labor and were dirty, drunk and drugged and nearly useless.

My lowest paid person is $7 an hour. Highest is $18.50.

PS, my assumptions are not suspect nor are they assumptions. You know as well as I do if you remove the illegals from your dads equation the hourly rate will go through the roof, so to speak; Supply and demand.

I'm truly stunned you'd think I have an ulterior motive with my thoughts on this without stating so. If I had a dog in this fight, I'd have said so from the get go.

Whoa Nelly, You misunderstood, I do not suspect your motives. You said unskilled labor would jump to $20 to $30 an hour, I know that you must hire unskilled labor, and you do not hire illegals, so I was trying to point out YOU abide by the law and do not pay unskilled labor $20-$30 an hour. I never thought you were working an angle and I did not intend to imply so, I apologize for giving that impression.

I do believe that labor prices will increase if 11 Million illegals were deported. I do not think it would be cataclysmic, it would not triple, but I am realistic enough to know it would increase because we have sectors of our economy that have been artificially stunted by illegal labor.

I am not saying that a guest worker program is wrong either, BUT it needs to be crafted in such a way that they are unskilled day labor and limited to that and not banding together and ruining markets by unfairly competing against small American companies who follow the rules.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...point made.

So, we attack the symptom, the illegals, who are working.

Not the problem, those not doing their jobs, not working.

I don't get it.

You are finally right. You don't get it.

The American craftsman, artisans, ditch diggers, backhoe drivers, nursery workers and poinsettia growers who want to work legally and will pay their taxes and have them withheld from their pay cannot compete with the illegals with no taxes withheld. The illegal can work for say $10/hr because he does not pay taxes. The legal worker needs to make $15/hr in order to take home $10/hr.