Immigration Rallies Draw Thousands Nationwide

[Bruzilla]

Who says that it has to be that drmatic. A fence, wall monitored is not a bad thing. Who says they have to shoot people? aprehend them and send them back, 100 times if needed.

You mean keep doing exactly what we're doing now, except also spend several billion bucks to build a fence that won't stop them? I thought the idea was to keep them from coming over?

 

[vraiblonde]

I have a question:

Why would requiring guest workers to be documented result in higher prices? Why would they automatically get a raise just because they're here legally?

I'll ask again, since no one answered....

 

[Bruzilla]

Now you are talking like a guy with no common sense. You don't need to shoot people. Razor wire properly laid and stacked will deter all but the most determined. It is not likely that those trying to get in illegally will have Bangalore torpedoes.

Ummm... correct me if I'm wrong, but you can easily get over perfectly stacked and laid razor wire by laying a few heavy boards on it. And in the absence of boards heavy blankets will do the trick just as well. Seems to me I remember reading that in a small group manuever manual somewhere, but what does the military know. Also, the guys at Normandy needed Bangalore torpedoes because it's very difficult to go up to a razor wire fence and cut your way through when there are several hundred MG-42s raining 8MM bullets at you. I swear... some people. Since these folks will be going up to your vaunted razor wire in teh dead of night, and not while under fire, they'll be able to get past your impenetrable wall as easily as the Nazis overcame the Maginot line.

 

[Bruzilla]

Yes, to #1.

To #2, why is gunning down unarmed civilians the only answer? Is that what they do with other non-violent criminals in this country - just gun them down?

Anyway, I don't support a fence or wall. That's a little too Soviet/China for me. I think we should have a solid border patrol and enforce the law. I don't see what's so unreasonable about that.

Excellent points Vrai. The reason that I mention the shooting of unarmed civilans was that the Berlin Wall was referenced as an example of a low-cost, effective means of keeping people where you want them. My response was that it wasn't the wall itself that deterred people from crossing it, it was the machine gunners with shoot-to-kill orders and the land mines. There was an extremely low probablility of living through an attempt to cross the wall, and that deterred people from doing it. So just building a wall or a fence isn't going to be enough. You're going to have to take actions that will deter people from breaching it. And when you've got Cubans willing to accept a moderate threat to life by crossing 90 miles of Atlantic on an inner tube, it's apparent that only a real and severe Soviet-style threat is actually going to work. Failing that, you're just going to have people coming up with ways to get over, under, or around your wall and then you have to find them, catch them, and deport them... which is exactly what we do now - minus the price tag for building and maintaining the fence. So, what's the point?

The only things that are unreasonable about building a solid Border Patrol and just enforcing the law is cost and human nature. You need to build up a border patrol that's capable of defending our nation's entire border, 24/7/365, with 100% coverage. That would make your border patrol about the size of the Marine Corps at least. Plus you need to house, support, and equip these guys forever. How much is that going to cost you every year? And what's the return on the investment? You're still getting stuck with higher costs and taxes, and for what? The pride in saying we can keep illegals out? Talk about your Pyrrhic victories. As for human nature, most of our prisons are open-air drug markets despite "air-tight" security. Why? Because guards and security people are human and can be bribed or compromised, and allow people through regardless of how "air tight" you think your security is. And the larger a group of people you're talking about, the larger the number of bad apples in the bunch.

Face it... if just enforcing the laws was enough, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Bruzilla]

I'll ask again, since no one answered....

The answer is absolutely!!! Any worker in the country, legal or illegal, is eligible to the same rights and to equal protection under the law. If someone makes you work longer hours than allowed, you can take action. If you get underpaid, you can take action. If you want to form a union, you can. But, an illegal worker has to be far more careful about things like filing grievences, or demanding anything from an employer. Sure an illegal worker can file a complaint with the EEOC, but even if they win they'll still end up deported, so they don't complain.

Why do you think it is that illegals are so willing to put up with low pay, long hours, and crappy work? Because they've usually got no choice. They have to work for whoever will hire them, and for whatever the employer will give them. An illegal can't go to Ford, or Giant, or Wal Mart and get hired, so they end up working for some bodyshop fixing Fords, picking produce that's sold at Giant, or working as a contracted cleaner at Wal Mart. If you were given a choice of cleaning toilets at I-95 restrooms for $4 and hour or letting your children starve, you would be cleaning toilets. But if someone said you can clean toilets or you can work in whatever profession you chose, you wouldn't be cleaning many public restrooms would you? But now that still doesn't mean those toilets no longer need to be cleaned, so how do you get someone who doesn't have to do that work to take the job? By giving them a salary that will get them to do it. And based on what they've learned in CA, even doubling the salary doesn't work. So you'ld have to triple or maybe even quadruple it, which is going to drive up your costs.

 

[vraiblonde]

The only things that are unreasonable about building a solid Border Patrol and just enforcing the law is cost and human nature. You need to build up a border patrol that's capable of defending our nation's entire border, 24/7/365, with 100% coverage. That would make your border patrol about the size of the Marine Corps at least. Plus you need to house, support, and equip these guys forever. How much is that going to cost you every year? And what's the return on the investment? You're still getting stuck with higher costs and taxes, and for what? The pride in saying we can keep illegals out? Talk about your Pyrrhic victories. As for human nature, most of our prisons are open-air drug markets despite "air-tight" security. Why? Because guards and security people are human and can be bribed or compromised, and allow people through regardless of how "air tight" you think your security is. And the larger a group of people you're talking about, the larger the number of bad apples in the bunch.

So what? Security costs money. By your reasoning, we should get rid of our military and our police force because they cost money and they're not perfect.

The reason we have so many illegals in here is because Congress doesn't care and doesn't put money toward enforcing our immigration laws. It's that simple. They are afraid that if they do, people like you (Bruzilla) will call them racists and it will cost them votes.

We piss away a TON of money in this country on stupid crap that doesn't amount to a hill of beans. A friend of mine and Larry's just got back from four years in Zambia, teaching the natives not to piss in their water supply. She is a lifelong, card-carrying liberal Democrat hippie chick and her biggest complaint about George Bush (from her own first-hand experience) is that he has spent billions of $$$ on aid to Africa that hasn't amounted to a hill of ####. He might as well have flushed that money down the toilet, for all the good it did.

She feels that we should stop giving money to Africa, that goes into the hands of the war lords for their own pleasure, and spend it right here in the US. That, to me, makes perfect sense.

So what has Bush pledged for African AIDS this year? And how much border patrol would that buy?

 

[Bruzilla]

So what? Security costs money. By your reasoning, we should get rid of our military and our police force because they cost money and they're not perfect.

The reason we have so many illegals in here is because Congress doesn't care and doesn't put money toward enforcing our immigration laws. It's that simple. They are afraid that if they do, people like you (Bruzilla) will call them racists and it will cost them votes.

We piss away a TON of money in this country on stupid crap that doesn't amount to a hill of beans. A friend of mine and Larry's just got back from four years in Zambia, teaching the natives not to piss in their water supply. She is a lifelong, card-carrying liberal Democrat hippie chick and her biggest complaint about George Bush (from her own first-hand experience) is that he has spent billions of $$$ on aid to Africa that hasn't amounted to a hill of ####. He might as well have flushed that money down the toilet, for all the good it did.

She feels that we should stop giving money to Africa, that goes into the hands of the war lords for their own pleasure, and spend it right here in the US. That, to me, makes perfect sense.

So what has Bush pledged for African AIDS this year? And how much border patrol would that buy?

Negative. I do not think that we should do away with our military or police as they are able to get most of the job done given the resources they consume. I also feel that having well-armed citizens is an excellent and very cost-effective way to close the gap between capabilities and resources in these areas. I also like the idea of the Minutemen as they are a much more effective tool than a beaurocratic mess like the Border Patrol, unfortunately there's a severe lack of consistency. The other problem is that cops (and Border Patrol agents) fall under the consumer-side supply and demand rule, that being anything you need a lot of you're not going to pay a lot for, which means that in order to bring on scores of new agents you're most likely going to pay them a low salary... which opens the door to graft and corruption (re: prison guards.)

As for your second point, if 2A and you are correct in your belief that "most Americans" support your views, then shouldn't Congress want to revel in the claim of being racist against illegal immigrants? For every imigrant vote they lose they would be getting two or three folks like you right? So I think your claims that Congress is afraid of the racist label is pretty lame. I believe that Congress is dragging its feet on this issue for the exact same reason they always have: they know how much damage doing away with illegal immigrant labor will do to our economy, and they are thinking with their brains instead of their hearts on this issue.

As for money for AIDS and warlords in Africa, I'm right there with ya - 100%. F that whole bunch over there. I just saw a special on the NYT satellite channel about a black doctor who volunteered to work in Africa for a year to help with the AIDS crisis, and he just threw up his hands in disgust with the whole continent out there.

 

[Bruzilla]

I'll pay extra for my lettuce if that is what it takes to close the "door".

Sorry, but I think I gotta toss the flag on you on this one. Weren't you the one who was upset because his Little Havana/barely English speaking cleaning woman asked him to learn English? Let me ask you 2A... how come you hired this woman to be your cleaning woman instead of a born-in-the-USA, mom, apple pie, and Chevrolet, By God All-American woman? Could it be because the later whould have been too expensive? Could it be that you couldn't find such a woman who was willing to pick up your messes and wash your personals for anywhere near the kind of money Miss Havana was willing to work for?

Sorry, but I don't see you being willing to pay more for services supplied by the All-American types.

 

[Larry Gude]

To which I'll just wait on pins and needles...

<p> He threw the money changers and vendors out of the temple physically.
</p>

...to find out how that relates to immigrants.

If anything that suggests Jesus would throw out the politicians and business owners, those exploiting the situation, laws be damned.

And he's just the guy to be damning things.

 

[Larry Gude]

I did not...

Whoa Nelly, You misunderstood, I do not suspect your motives. You said unskilled labor would jump to $20 to $30 an hour, I know that you must hire unskilled labor, and you do not hire illegals, so I was trying to point out YOU abide by the law and do not pay unskilled labor $20-$30 an hour. I never thought you were working an angle and I did not intend to imply so, I apologize for giving that impression.
I do believe that labor prices will increase if 11 Million illegals were deported. I do not think it would be cataclysmic, it would not triple, but I am realistic enough to know it would increase because we have sectors of our economy that have been artificially stunted by illegal labor.

I am not saying that a guest worker program is wrong either, BUT it needs to be crafted in such a way that they are unskilled day labor and limited to that and not banding together and ruining markets by unfairly competing against small American companies who follow the rules.

...drywall hangers and tapers and sanders are tradesmen to me, not unskilled labor. Unskilled labor hangs out at the 7-11 looking to earn a few bucks for the day doing anything.

Your dad can't get a guy for less than $15 unless he cheats and gets an illegal, right? So, the margin there is $5 and the illegals get the jobs anyway, you said, so guys can make a profit, right? So, take out the guys who are getting the work, they're gone. Then, the pressure that kept legals down to $15 is GONE.

What percentage of the guys are illegals? 25%? So, there's that much MORE work for the guys already getting $15.

You're looking at $25, EZ.

Quit worrying about my feelings. I was only trying to see if I could make you feel guilty. Next time you blow one into the next fairway I ain't gonna go 'aww...too bad..."

Give no quarter as you shall have none!

Look, this disaster winding it's way through congress will not be cataclysmic but a good number of people are gonna long for the good old days until we all adjust.

 

[Larry Gude]

I want you people to really think about a few things...

This is a moral issue. These folks have been TOLD for 10-15 years "It's OK! Come on over!"

If not, what, exactly, is the message when everything in this nation is written in two languages? Hmmm???

People came here with the implied welcome. They are building lives. They are home owners. Their kids go to school with our kids. They are, by and large, as productive and as ingrained a part of our culture as the rest of us.

Secondly, anyone notice that Bill Clintons latest lawyer and apologist is nowhere to be found, Skink Tyree, esq, nor his sidekick Ker-aid?

Here we sit, having a deep, robust argument about THE issue of the day and where are our fellow Americans?

 

[Bruzilla]

Sorry fellow Democrat du jour, but I don't think you can see this as a moral issue on the part of the illegals. Who has been telling them it's okay to come over? Certainly not anyone in government, and they're the only ones who really count. The fact is that these folks are breaking the law, they do put themselves and others at risk by coming here, and they do lie to their employers, so I can't really extend the title of moral to them.

Most products have Spanish on them in reaction to the fact that there are a lot of Hispanics here, not as a means to attract them.

I do agree with you that I would much rather have cities full of these hard-working folks than all the current urban leeches who now occupy that territory.

 

[Bruzilla]

...drywall hangers and tapers and sanders are tradesmen to me, not unskilled labor. Unskilled labor hangs out at the 7-11 looking to earn a few bucks for the day doing anything.

Your dad can't get a guy for less than $15 unless he cheats and gets an illegal, right? So, the margin there is $5 and the illegals get the jobs anyway, you said, so guys can make a profit, right? So, take out the guys who are getting the work, they're gone. Then, the pressure that kept legals down to $15 is GONE.

What percentage of the guys are illegals? 25%? So, there's that much MORE work for the guys already getting $15.

You're looking at $25, EZ.

Quit worrying about my feelings. I was only trying to see if I could make you feel guilty. Next time you blow one into the next fairway I ain't gonna go 'aww...too bad..."

Give no quarter as you shall have none!

Look, this disaster winding it's way through congress will not be cataclysmic but a good number of people are gonna long for the good old days until we all adjust.

I suspect that most of the drywall work here in Florida is done by illegal Mexicans. The workers you see in the houses being built are 100% Hispanic. If you drive by a house that's under construction at night you can see where they just make beds on the slabs of drywall and they live and sleep in the house until it's done, then they move to the next house, so they have no permanent residences.

 

[vraiblonde]

...to find out how that relates to immigrants.

I thought it was pretty clear. "Render unto Caesar..."

It means that the laws of man should be followed by men. Jesus did not condone breaking the law because man's law meant nothing to him. It might be a different story if immigrants were coming over here illegally to worship. But they're not - they're breaking the law in order to earn money, and Jesus was pretty specific when he said "Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

 

[Larry Gude]

The hell you say...

Sorry fellow Democrat du jour, but I don't think you can see this as a moral issue on the part of the illegals. Who has been telling them it's okay to come over? Certainly not anyone in government, and they're the only ones who really count. The fact is that these folks are breaking the law, they do put themselves and others at risk by coming here, and they do lie to their employers, so I can't really extend the title of moral to them.

Most products have Spanish on them in reaction to the fact that there are a lot of Hispanics here, not as a means to attract them.

I do agree with you that I would much rather have cities full of these hard-working folks than all the current urban leeches who now occupy that territory.

I can see it any damn way I please, I'm LEGAL!!!!!!!

Mmmuuuuhhahahahahhahhaahhhaaaaaaaa!!!!!

And yes, the government has been tacitly approving this for a decade or more. Bi-lingual education programs and initiatives. The aforementioned signage was not put up by the boy scouts; it was put up in response, government response, to the tidal wave, the Tsunami if you will, if Spanish speaking people.

 

[vraiblonde]

Unskilled labor hangs out at the 7-11 looking to earn a few bucks for the day doing anything.

Wrong. If the guy starts working for you and you have to train him and show him how to do his job to the nth degree, that's unskilled labor.

Reds, Jackie and Chris are unskilled labor. Bryan probably is, too, because he's not a "greenhouse professional" - he just simply does what you tell him to.

Any dummy can hang drywall and paint walls, and I offer yours truly as a shining example.

 

[Larry Gude]

That's why I don't go for no mans damn religion...

I thought it was pretty clear. "Render unto Caesar..."

It means that the laws of man should be followed by men. Jesus did not condone breaking the law because man's law meant nothing to him. It might be a different story if immigrants were coming over here illegally to worship. But they're not - they're breaking the law in order to earn money, and Jesus was pretty specific when he said "Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

..what a bunch of hooey. If 'Jesus/Your God here' doesn't stand for doing what is right by your fellow man over ANY damn law, we'd still have slavery and what the hell would the point be? Did we screw up and not follow Addolph Hitlers law? How about Osama?

God: "Man, the good work I could get them to do...oh well, gotta follow the law..."

Mexican, crawling across the desert; "Gasp, water!"

Jesus: "Here, my son, drink this wine for it is my blood and, just as soon as you feel better, turn around and go the bleep back where you came from, you illegal ALIEN!"

Yeah, I SO see that...

 

[Larry Gude]

Oh, ok...

Wrong. If the guy starts working for you and you have to train him and show him how to do his job to the nth degree, that's unskilled labor.

Reds, Jackie and Chris are unskilled labor. Bryan probably is, too, because he's not a "greenhouse professional" - he just simply does what you tell him to.

Any dummy can hang drywall and paint walls, and I offer yours truly as a shining example.

...so now the diva knows all about it, not the liscensed commercial electrician of the house and his 10 years in the field...

Must know my place...

 

[vraiblonde]

If 'Jesus/Your God here' doesn't stand for doing what is right by your fellow man over ANY damn law, we'd still have slavery and what the hell would the point be?

FYI, the Bible condones slavery. Paul says in Ephesians:

"Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

 

[vraiblonde]

...so now the diva knows all about it, not the liscensed commercial electrician of the house and his 10 years in the field...

HA! You can't even SPELL licensed commercial electrician!