Immigration Rallies Draw Thousands Nationwide

[itsbob]

You are duhing again. Common sense is not your strong point is it? Why is it you get paid again? Razor wire for 10 to 15 feet at the foot of a tall fence with at least three rows of razor wire at top. Put a board on that.

That's a crapload of razor wire.. when you are talking 100's if not 1000's of miles of border fence. East Germany only had a few hundred miles of border to cover, and they didn't see the need for the exp[ense to do it.. Now a razor fence is kinda cool.. stick your fingers in the fence to climb it and you come back with nubs.

The Soviets developed a way to defeat razor/ concertina wire, and it was adapted very well by the Vietnamese.. lowest ranking man gets to play board. First man to the wire throws his body on top of the wire, everyone walks over him (or them if multiple strands) last people across pick up the man on the wire. Concertina and razor wire really don't do much damage if you just lay there and don't move, you start moving and it sucks you in and tears you to shreds.. (I've seen the after effect on a couple of drunks, AND on a kid about 12 that fell into on his way home from school) Mexicans, and those damn illegal canadians are smart enough to figure out how to defeat it in short order.. one thing, NO obstacle is any good unless you have someone's eyes on it at ALL times, and are willing to stop a breach.. just laying out a thousand miles of razor wire and leaving it isn't going to accomplish anything. You have to have the manpower to actually provide overwatch of the entire 1000 miles.

 

[vraiblonde]

Forget that crap. I don't want some fence or wall around my country like we're Communist bloc.

Do other countries have this huge "jump the border" problem? What about Europe, now that they're all EU? Can you just wander about, from country to country, or do they track you in some way?

 

[2ndAmendment]

I do agree that a fence is not the most desirable way to stop illegals. Cutting off all work ans services would stop it in a heartbeat. If conditions here were worse than in their own country for illegals, then there would be no reason to even want to come here illegally.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Forget that crap. I don't want some fence or wall around my country like we're Communist bloc.

Do other countries have this huge "jump the border" problem? What about Europe, now that they're all EU? Can you just wander about, from country to country, or do they track you in some way?

Before it was the EU, they had border checks. I don't know about now. I believe they still have immigration checks for ships, trains, and planes coming into the EU at least at the first point of debarkation. I don't think other countries provide the work, goods, services, and benefits for illegals and they deport them right away; am I not sure, but I think they are much stricter than we are. I don't think many, if any, of them give citizenship to children of illegals born in the EU countries either.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I've got to leave this thread. We are not going to solve it, and our opinions don't really matter. :shrug:

I've got a computer to rebuild. Installing Fedora Core 5 and SELinux is giving me a bit of a problem. I've already joined one bug report and filed 2 others, but that is not too bad for a brand new OS.

 

[Bruzilla]

You are duhing again. Common sense is not your strong point is it? Why is it you get paid again? Razor wire for 10 to 15 feet at the foot of a tall fence with at least three rows of razor wire at top. Put a board on that.

I don't need to. I just back up my POS white 79 Ford F-150 pickem' up truck, toss a grappling hook into the pre-fence wire with a cable attached to my truck, and I pull it all out. Then I go back and toss the hook so that's it's set in the fence and I pull the whole friggin cabootle down. Then, as my "customers" make their way through the gaping hole that was minutes earlier your inpenetrable barrier, I have a couple of guys that I pay going around and snipping up your razor wire and fence section so that I can cart it off and sell it to some ranchers to use in fencing in livestock.

 

[Bruzilla]

NO obstacle is any good unless you have someone's eyes on it at ALL times, and are willing to stop a breach.. just laying out a thousand miles of razor wire and leaving it isn't going to accomplish anything. You have to have the manpower to actually provide overwatch of the entire 1000 miles.

Yep! That's a fact. Heck, if you've got the manpower you don't even need a fence. I've spent plenty of time on USAF flightlines where all they need is a line painted on the tarmac and the words LETHAL FORCE USED IF CROSSED. There have been sometimes that we knew this was BS and we would cross those lines (Charleston, SC) and some where the kids with loaded AR-15s (Tinker) convinced us that wasn't a good idea.

But in addition to the manpower, you have to have a sufficient level of threat to deter people. If all we're doing is having our guys go chasing after the people they see breeching the fence, arresting them, and sending them back home, then all we'll be doing is spending a ton of money to accomplish exactly what we're doing now. If you're going to spend the money to man-up the border, and you really want the illegals stopped, you need to green light the guys on the fence to start shooting at breechers, and no one wants to do that.

 

[Bruzilla]

There was a petition delivered to Congress that had over a million verified signatures supporting securing our borders and deporting the illegals.

That's just nifty! All the more reason why they shouldn't be the least bit worried about criticism from any immigrant sectors. But since they're still dragging their feet I'm guessing the determining factor isn't a fear of criticism, it's a fear of trashing the economy.

 

[itsbob]

Forget that crap. I don't want some fence or wall around my country like we're Communist bloc.

Do other countries have this huge "jump the border" problem? What about Europe, now that they're all EU? Can you just wander about, from country to country, or do they track you in some way?

I know West Germany used to have a HUGE problem with Turks.. and listening to the news this morning France has a HUGE problem with EVERYone else because of their "great" cradle to the grave social programs.. in the age group of 21 - 26 year olds, only 1/2 of the population actually works, in some parts of the country its 1/4.. Make it easy to be out of work, and guess what??

 

[Bruzilla]

Border crossings are usually well represented by government officials, or at least they used to be, but the "frontiers" as they are called have always been wide open. France and Spain have had smuggler issues as long as they've existed.

 

[Larry Gude]

You have this useless way...

What don't you understand about "deport"?

...of just making your mind sound like a door, slammed and nailed shut. You keep saying the same thing, over and over and over; "Iiiegal! Criminals! Make them go away!"

And you will not consider the cost and you will not consider the effect on the economy and you will not consider the social impact nor will you even consider if the grand police state will work.

You're ONLY retort is that I don't understand this word or that word or another word.

I suppose it's better than actually considering any alternative but your own.

So, finding and processing and verifying and deporting 10-20 million people is the solution, eh? And it won't cost, what, anything?

 

[Larry Gude]

Isn't that fascinating...

Like you really care what the Bible says.

...first you suspect my motives in this whole thread as, perhaps, I'm hiring illegals.

There was no reason for that other than your argument, that no one could possibly have a different viewpoint unless their view is suspect.

Now, if I look at an issue from your viewpoint and that is also suspect.

Is that how it works, that if I'm not part of the same club as you I'm not allowed to invoke your rules or theories? I'm not allowed to point out your missions statement? I'm not supposed to try and understand how you reached your opinion?

You're very good at condescension, useless as it is, but I'm not impressed with your defense of your position based on its merits.

 

[Larry Gude]

I guess mass deportation CAN be done...

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=4700403

...on a tight budget.

 

[vraiblonde]

You keep saying the same thing, over and over and over; "Iiiegal! Criminals! Make them go away!"

Because that's what it boils down to. Anything else is talktalk.

What if 10 million Palestinian males demanded to be able to come to this country and not be documented or tracked? Would you say that was okay, too?

 

[Larry Gude]

Which is why...

Because that's what it boils down to. Anything else is talktalk.

What if 10 million Palestinian males demanded to be able to come to this country and not be documented or tracked? Would you say that was okay, too?

...I say, fine, let's do it your way.

What next?


Now, there aren't 10,000,000 Palestinian males anyway, but, I think it's cute that you've now affected the 2a 'the sky is falling, armegeddon approaches' tactic of ignoring the fact that these people are, by and large, here to find a better life, not kill us all.

As far as taking your question seriously, if 10,000,000 Palestinian males had been, systematically, allowed to come here over the last decade, gotten jobs, become productive members of society and legislatures across the land had started printing everything in Arabic (assuming that is what Palestinian males speak) and offering and providing social services and ot5her resources, well, we'd be back right where we are now, right?

So, I'll vote for it; start deportations now. make the criminals pay! I'll write my congressman.

Let's do it your way. What's next?

 

[vraiblonde]

I think it's cute that you've now affected the 2a 'the sky is falling, armegeddon approaches' tactic of ignoring the fact that these people are, by and large, here to find a better life, not kill us all.

This is how I can tell I'm winning an argument with you - you start getting hysterical and tossing out all sorts of overblown silliness.

You have this romanticized picture of illegal immigrants as these turn-of-the-century Ellis Island types - tired, poor huddled masses yearning to breathe free. When in fact, many of these illegals are drug runners, gang members and criminals avoiding punishment and not a particular boon to society.

And, being neither here nor there, it's not going to kill anyone to get registered and documented. Why you are trying to pretend it will is a mystery to me. Is it such a hardship to come to this country via legal means? It can't be too bad because people do it every single day of the week.

Which leads me to another observation: you keep throwing out these numbers - 10 million, 20 million. If they're undocumented and unregistered, how the hell does ANYONE know how many illegals are in this country???

 

[Larry Gude]

White flag...

...I give.

You're full of poo poo if you think I have ANY romantic notions of immigrants, legal or otherwise, especially after the other day.

The US simply IS a nation of immigrants and people come here knowing full well that they, almost all, would start at the very bottom of the ladder and it would take generations before their children or maybe grandchildren or maybe later or maybe NEVER, would achieve the dream that is America.

Death, abuse, discrimination, slavery, poor wages, poor living conditions, dangerous jobs, health issues, all of it...and yet, still they come.

And why is this???

When in fact, many of these illegals are drug runners, gang members and criminals avoiding punishment and not a particular boon to society.

NO WAY! This from the girl with the Godfather poster on the wall. Who is romanticizing the past? You and your buddy 2A would have fit in quite nicely in 1910-20 screaming that Italians and the Irish are all criminals and would ruin the country because some of them were, hold onto your new four top, CRIMINALS!

Don't you hate that? A perfect nation, no crime, no bed bugs, no funny accents and all of a sudden...POOF.

You can also accuse me of throwing around numbers as though I made them up. Fine. Your point works both ways; how do you even know there is a problem if you don't trust the numbers?

I'm all for legal immigration. Make it happen. Quit pretending it will be free and quit pretending having this hoard, all of a sudden in line, legally, for the government teet, is such a great thing because of the odd Mexican terrorist you seem to expect to catch.

There is a reason we have the problem we have today and it started a long time ago. Based on what you and I saw last week, our problem is the specific approval of companies hiring illegals.

Our government, state, local and national, have not done squat on this issue. Make sure to vote for someone who is going to fix this...'problem'.

So, what do we do next?

 

[Larry Gude]

Here...

...for your leisure reading...

http://www.cis.org/topics/legalimmigration.html

 

[vraiblonde]

NO WAY! This from the girl with the Godfather poster on the wall. Who is romanticizing the past? You and your buddy 2A would have fit in quite nicely in 1910-20 screaming that Italians and the Irish are all criminals and would ruin the country because some of them were, hold onto your new four top, CRIMINALS!

Stop being ridiculous or suffer the consequences.

Let me refresh your memory: When Vito Andolino came into this country, he came through Ellis Island, which was typical of immigrants during that time period. Even in the opening scene, when Bonasera is delivering his monologue, he says he came to this country to be an American and do things the American way.

So your Godfather comparison sucks. Try again.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...of just making your mind sound like a door, slammed and nailed shut. You keep saying the same thing, over and over and over; "Iiiegal! Criminals! Make them go away!"

And you will not consider the cost and you will not consider the effect on the economy and you will not consider the social impact nor will you even consider if the grand police state will work.

You're ONLY retort is that I don't understand this word or that word or another word.

I suppose it's better than actually considering any alternative but your own.

So, finding and processing and verifying and deporting 10-20 million people is the solution, eh? And it won't cost, what, anything?

Where did I ever say that it would not cost anything? Please show me where.

...first you suspect my motives in this whole thread as, perhaps, I'm hiring illegals.

There was no reason for that other than your argument, that no one could possibly have a different viewpoint unless their view is suspect.

Now, if I look at an issue from your viewpoint and that is also suspect.

Is that how it works, that if I'm not part of the same club as you I'm not allowed to invoke your rules or theories? I'm not allowed to point out your missions statement? I'm not supposed to try and understand how you reached your opinion?

You're very good at condescension, useless as it is, but I'm not impressed with your defense of your position based on its merits.

I said it seemed like you and Bruzilla had a dog in this fight. When you said you didn't, I did not refute that. I trust you. You have told me in the past personally and posted on the board that you don't believe the Bible. I was pointing that out. If you truly have an interest, I will be most happy to discuss it with you.

Since we are on that subject, I think Jesus would have compassion on the illegals. I feel sorry for them. It is sad that their own countries do not provide properly for them. I also believe that Jesus would want them to follow the law. I also want them to follow the law. Come here legally or don't come here. If you are here illegally, get out on your own or be willing to suffer the consequences.

I think we need to control our borders. If a bunch of guys in SUVs and ATVs can find illegals coming across the border, why can't the Border Patrol and the INS?

Will it cost money? Yes. So what. So does a F-22, but we are going to buy a bunch of them. Securing our borders against invaders costs money. An illegal alien is an invader of the U.S. They may or may not be a real threat, but they have demonstrated first hand that they are willing to violate our laws if it is in their best interest. What other laws are they willing to violate if they think it is in their best interest? We have enough problems will criminals that have immigrated legally. Why are you willing to compound the problems?

Ten million, 15,000,000, does it matter? One is too many.

I don't agree with you. Why should I accept your position? Because you posted it? So what? Do you agree with me? No. So what? Are we going to duel at 10 paces? I don't think so. It would certainly be detrimental to at least one of us, and it still wouldn't change either's position. So what's the point? I do observe that you have taken the position proposed by the Democrats; that surprised me.

In my opinion, this country will continue to collapse under its own politically correct weight until it is flushed down the tubes and we break into individual states again or are taken over from the out side. Sad. But I think it will happen.

I won't change your mind. You have not changed mine. You have made me disappointed, but I guess that goes both ways. Anyway, I would rather have you as a friend than worry about any illegal. OK?

_______________________________________________


As to Bru and the pickup pulling down the fence, if I were planning a fence it would be inside my territory. If someone tried to pull it down or otherwise breach it, they are on my territory and would be subject to all the penalties that entailed. In a personal issue, trespassing, destruction of personal property, and illegal entry at the least. In the cast of the U.S., illegal entry into the U.S., destruction of public property, illegal use of a vehicle, I am sure there are others, so now we have grounds to not only deport them but to lock them up for a while before we do.