Men don't have the right to choice!

Ken King

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Bruzilla said:
But Ken, in all seriousness, what difference does it make if the couple enjoyed animalistic pleasure in the back seat of a car, or two people doing it slow to Barry White back at his apartment? The result is the same... a child is created. The man's sperm aren't any more "responsible" because of the mood at the time of conception, and the egg doesn't request to see proof of marriage.
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Well, Bru, while I don't recall discussing the where or mood setting of the act I will agree that the result could be the same but the expectations of the types involved in this theoretical situation of having unprotected sex are obviously different. A couple (married, career live-ins, etc.) are in a relationship that should have shared decisions. The others (lusting, sinful fornicators :sarcasm:) that only are having a fling, do not have these shared expectations towards decision making. Thus the couple type should have an expectation where they would share any abortion decision while the casual partakers have no expectation of sharing any such decision.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Ken King said:
Well, Bru, while I don't recall discussing the where or mood setting of the act I will agree that the result could be the same but the expectations of the types involved in this theoretical situation of having unprotected sex are obviously different. A couple (married, career live-ins, etc.) are in a relationship that should have shared decisions. The others (lusting, sinful fornicators :sarcasm:) that only are having a fling, do not have these shared expectations towards decision making. Thus the couple type should have an expectation where they would share any abortion decision while the casual partakers have no expectation of sharing any such decision.
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Ken, I agree with you 100% on the shared expectations prior to the pregnancy, but there I have to part company with you. After my time in and with the Navy, with folks who face this issue quite frequently; and after raising three kids who had more than a few friends who went through this; I have to say that the onset of parenthood puts a person through a lot of changes. I've seen guys who I considered to be inconsiderate sloths change overnight into dilligent fathers-to-be. I've also seen guys who I thought were stand-up guys doing everything short of buying coat hangers. What I've found is that like most other dramatic situations, it's nearly impossible to predict how anyone will react.

So while you're correct, in my opinion anyway, that there's usually no desire to be a parent before the fact, that doesn't mean that a guy can't have a strong desire to be a father after the fact. And with the exception of rape, sex is still a two-person (or more if you're lucky) event that almost always runs the risk of an unwanted pregnancy. The decision to have sex is shared between the man and woman, the risk of pregnancy is shared by the man and woman, so it only makes sense that the decision as to what to do with the shared outcome, a baby, should be a shared one also.
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
That is THE point...

so it only makes sense that the decision as to what to do with the shared outcome, a baby, should be a shared one also.
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...when we're talking about words like "fair" and "equality" that got us where we are today in terms of rights and responsibilities that courts interpret and impose.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Larry Gude said:
...when we're talking about words like "fair" and "equality" that got us where we are today in terms of rights and responsibilities that courts interpret and impose.
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Where do you see men making out in the courts when it comes to "fair" and "equality"? When men and women are both involved in a crime, who goes to prison and who gets the plea agreement/immunity? When a man kills his children he's a vicious, heinous, murderer, but a mother who kills her children is herself a victim who must have some mental defect as everyone knows no woman would ever willingly kill her children :sarcasm: When a couple seperates it doesn't matter how much better off the kids would be with the Dad because everyone knows that kids are always better off with the mother. :sarcasm: When a mother goes to court to force the father to pay more child support, but the father has no standing in court when the mother isn't spending the child support money on the kids, where is the fairness and equality? When it comes to the life and safety of an unborn child compared to the life and safety of the mother, the baby loses every time.

It seems to me that we need a lot more talking about real fairness and equality in the courts. It seems like the only ones talking about it right now are women.
 
Larry Gude

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Let me try this another way:

Where do you see men making out in the courts when it comes to "fair" and "equality"
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I am in SUPPORT of what you are saying.

Men are cleary treated with a decided lack of equality when it comes to abortion and birth and rights and responsibilities. I made that point pages ago.

The 'choice' movement had at its basis the right to equality meaning the man did not own her, that he could not tell her what to do with her body, that she and she alone could choose to birth or not.

Fair enough. If that, freedom, is the issue, why is the man obligated to support the child, outside of the moral? Why is he obligated to use HIS body for 18 years to earn the succor that sustains the wee one when he had no say in wether or not there would be a birth?

If he sacrificed all his rights at the moment of Shangri-la and she successfully fought to KEEP her rights every step of the way, pre, post and at the moment, do we not now have what we originally sought to eliminate, in-equality? Only now the shoe is on the other foot which is specifically of one sex thus a sexual discrimination as well?
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B

Bruzilla

Guest
You Da Man Larry! My issue though isn't with the issue of child support if a woman unilaterally (I stole that word from the anti-war crowd!) decides to have the child, which to me isn't fair either; it's with the apparently unalienable right to have an abortion with the consent of the father.

Women have no appreciation for how rough we men have it out here in the World. They just don't understand. :razz:
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
camily said:
OMG! I can't believe I just found this thread. I too vote for Ken. Funny stuff! I too find dillweed funny, Elaine. The Vrai joke was hysterical, sorry Vrai. Also Bru, all men think they do 50-60% of the "tasks" which is not true.
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Well let's see... the Bruzilla household is one of a husband who works 40-50 hours a week, a wife who works 20-30 hours per week, and three kids in school. I perform the following tasks a majority of the time:

Laundry for my wife and I (the kids handle their own)
Cooking dinner
Cooking breakfast, lunch, and dinner on weekends (my wife works weekends)
Washing the dishes with the assistance of the kids
Vacuming the house (my wife and kids just can't understand that a vacuum can't suck up everything and not quit working)
Tidying up our room (the kids do their own)
Cleaning up the common areas (living room, dining room, etc.)
Cleaning up the kitchen with the kids
Cleaning both bathrooms on the weekend
Cutting the grass
80% of the grocery shopping
Trash removal
Working on the car
Playing Mr. Fix It

While I love my wife very much, she has always been a horrible housekeeper even when she wasn't working. I got tired of piles of dirty clothes and dishes, eating dinner at 9:00 because she forgot to thaw anything out, seeing dog hair covering the carpet and furniture, and came to the general conclusion that I could continue to live like a sleazeball, get a new wife, or deal with it and take over the housework myself. I refused the first option, and option 2 wasn't affordable when you've got three kids, so option 3 was what I had to do.

So... my wife's responsibilities around the house are waking the kids up for school, feeding the dogs and cats, and doing the laundry or dishes maybe, maybe, two or three times a month.

Now you tell me... am I a delusional husband who only imagines he's doing most of the housework because he takes out the garbage and washes the car? Like I said, I love my wife and have for 23 years now, but if she were gone tommorrow the only difference it would make to my home life would be I would be feeding the cats and dogs.
 
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camily

camily

Peace
Well, that doesn't sound equal at all. While I would understand if the hours working outside the home were reversed, it sounds to me as if your wife has it pretty easy.
 
T

Terps

New Member
If everyone were just responsible about sex, whether its using condoms, women being on birth contorl then this would not be such an issue and there would be so few cases of birth control actually not working that abortion would not be a huge issue. PEOPLE just be responsible and if something does happen make a mature decision together as a couple. Whether it be life or abortion, both should have a say so.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Terps said:
If everyone were just responsible about sex, whether its using condoms, women being on birth contorl then this would not be such an issue and there would be so few cases of birth control actually not working that abortion would not be a huge issue. PEOPLE just be responsible and if something does happen make a mature decision together as a couple. Whether it be life or abortion, both should have a say so.
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That's a fact! Unfortunately people are generally not responsible, which is why we have rules and laws to deal with people being irresponsible. Unfortunately, those laws aren't equal in regards to the sexes.
 
kingpl2

kingpl2

New Member
constitutional right to abortion? (men and women)

Bruzilla said:
C'mon Ken. You have gone from unmarried and pregnancy, to not caring and knocks up, and now we're at unloving folk and bumping uglies. If I were watching Law & Order I would be hearing how someone has no case and is choosing to attack the victim. What's behind the increasingly negative terminology you're using? Your choice of words doesn't make your case any more valid.

And am I to understand that you're basing your judgement on Roe V. Wade... a decision that been criticized as being one of the worst ever? Am I also to understand that you actually believe your statement "...resulting in a pregnancy the male does not hold any right to dictate what the woman will do, though we know he might become financially responsible at a later time if carried full term, but his wishes don't really matter yet." I've read a lot of your posts over the years, and you've always been a champion of fairness, especially in legal issues. but how can you say that you feel that a guy should (as we're talking about opinions here) has zero rights IRT a child before it is born, while a woman has every right in the World?

But putting all that aside, I would like to refer you back to your comment "No dillweed, my point was that if a guy knocks up a woman that they aren't caring enough to be married to then they have no say as to how she handles it even if it results in their sorry ass paying for it for the next 18 to 21 years." I can understand that in your other comments you are just stating the plain truth of the law as you see it, but I wonder about your statements concerning marriage. What about marriage gives a man a right to stop his wife from getting an abortion, and if so, what about those carerr-live together couples who have been together for years but not married?
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Please read this

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/roevswades.htm
 
kingpl2

kingpl2

New Member
Terps said:
If everyone were just responsible about sex, whether its using condoms, women being on birth contorl then this would not be such an issue and there would be so few cases of birth control actually not working that abortion would not be a huge issue. PEOPLE just be responsible and if something does happen make a mature decision together as a couple. Whether it be life or abortion, both should have a say so.
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Being responsible means allowing nature to occur, not frustrating it's natural effects and altering a normally functioning human body...

please read this and comment
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/roevswades.htm
 
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